"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Makealist1 thank you.
It was a bit of a bad day yesterday with the unexpected contact. I feel much better today.
I've been reading this thread and it is so helpful.

Gonna have to get a new name. Mine is so boring , wererabbit.

Your post touched me. It was so 'in the minute' . but it said basically what we all do here. I don't know why some people have kids, sometimes I wonder if it's just because subconsciously they realise that they're not sociable/ lovable enough to maintain proper relationships - so they breed in order to have someone who'll be indebted to them. Controlled. 'Love' them.

And that only works when children are young - or obedient enough - or in the FOG [ that lasted for me till I was 60, I hope you're young enough to escape that and have a longer FOG free existence to look forward to].

The problems really kick back in when they age. The kids have left and they become more vulnerable. Lonely even. Then they 'try' to get back in - or even as you said make up a fantasy childhood to win you over/confuse you. BUT it's an act, and as I've found, they can't keep it up - often leading to a wierdly erratic performance of fluctuating sweetness/waifing/anger/guilt tripping etc etc. From adult to child in 5 minutes. And nothing is ever their fault.

Please get the people you love to protect you. Block your father's number if need be. Don't be in the house alone with him ? He sounds very aggressive.

Also - a recent thought - be wary of him with your small children. If he was abusive to you when young, and older, then he might not be able to control himself when one of his GC are ' naughty' ? And they are a way of getting to you. What is he like with your DBs - and their children, if they have any ? Have you told them about what's been happening ?

Gosh Makealist1 (dont know how to do the capitals thing yet!) your interest in my situation is touching. It feels so wrong to monopolise the thread with my problems.

I'm so glad that you found your way out of the fog, anytime is better than not at all.
You've touched on something that makes me anxious where you talk about them getting old. My Mum especially. My grandparents enable her and she is the victim. Always. My grandparents are in their 80s now and I dread when they're not here. When i was a child I looked at my Nana as my Mum because she was there for me emotionally and she took an interest in me. So when she's gone I'll be grieving her and I'll have a needy mother. I know theres no point worrying about it until the situation arises but its in the back of my mind.
Also, you're right about trusting my Dad with my kids. Ive cut contact now. His number is blocked. I told him that I won't have a bully around my kids. Luckily he so self absorbed that he rarely sees any of his grandchildren. My brother has 2 kids and he won't have Dad babysit anymore because he saw from how he reacted to me when I met him to discuss things.
Im very close with my brothers. We're protective of each other. We are the only ones who knew what it was like so we stick together! They know everything thats happened between me and my Dad and every conversation that's been had. I keep them informed because my parents like to get their side of the story in first.

Its so hard to not feel bad for cutting contact and telling him what an arse he was. We're taught to love and respect our parents like they're given a free pass to behave however they want.
Ive been brought up to believe that everyone elses feelings and needs are more important than mine so my default is to try and make the other person feel better. Its clever the way they do that, mould you so theyll always have control.

Another poster has mentioned doing some self actualization that she didnt get to do as a teen and that hit home. Thats what I'm going through now. Ive always felt less of a person than everyone else. Anyone new i met, i would automatically assume they were better than me and that my opinions, interests and life were rubbish in comparison so I hated conversing with new people in case they asked about my life. Then they'd find out what a fraud I was for pretending to be an equal person and I'd have more shame to carry around.
So I've always just reflected back the type of person i think they want me to be. So now I'm trying to find out who I actually am.

It makes me so angry that people have children and are so selfish. Their behaviour affects our entire lives.

Also, i love the term 'family of choice'.

I am having a shit time with a lot of things right now. I can't elaborate but needed to just come and post.

I don't know what to say to make you feel better but I can offer a hand hold chestofdrawers

Sorry to hear that, Chest.

Hi all

Im new here.. my parents argued likr cat and dog as i grew up.. mum felt dad was never good enough. Constant arguments (my mum hisses at my dad.. i swear he repulses her).. grew up with them constantly arguing and also them being obsessed witb work ethic and school grades.. thats all they seemed to care about. No outward affection, no love etc and i grew up feeling very unloved and sad. They do love me( gave me money 4 uni and house deposit and help me alot now as a single mum..practically) but my mum is very critical.. of my weight etc (im a size 14).. treats me like a child etc. Made me feel like i was fat and ugly as a child and no physical affection

Ive always tried so hard to please .. even now. First time ever im thinking of not going xmas day with my 5 yr old as fed up of the atmosphere and bickering yet i feel guilty for not going.

Had a break down 2 yrs ago. Mums response: "you think ur depressed? What?! How PATHETIC!.. we did everything 4 u.. you had it all!! A home, education, money 4 deposit.. we couldnt have done more 4 u.. when i was ur age i had no mum no dad..both dead.. no money.. i got on with it!!".. queue major guilt feelings my end :-/

Hi Sounsure

It is not your fault your parents are like this; you did not make them this way. Their own families of origin did that (what if anything do you know about their own family backgrounds because that often gives clues).

I would not go to your parents house for Christmas and plan your own Christmas at home instead. I would further limit all forms of contact with them too.

Your parents relationship seems to be a codependent one; they both get what they want out of this and your narcissistic sounding mother enjoys dominating your dad. I would not let your dad off the hook either; he has also failed to protect you from his wife's excesses of behaviours. He is truly also a weak bystander of a man but also her hatchet man. He failed you as your parent too.

They were not good parents to you and they have not changed really since your childhood. I doubt very much either parent feels any guilt whatsoever about the appalling ways they have treated you; infact your mother has said as much and has just dumped a lot of her stuff on you instead. You may have had material things but the emotional side was completely lacking leading you into becoming mired in your own FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) and people pleasing behaviours. Their love remains conditional even now. These are some of many unwelcome legacies such toxic people leave their now adult offspring.

You have however, two extremely valuable qualities that these people lack; empathy and insight. You do not need their approval, not that they'd ever give you this anyway.

Do not subject your child to them any longer. Deal with your own people pleasing and FOG by finding a therapist to work with. These people though are likes shoes; you need to find someone who fits in with you. Do read the resources at the start of this thread too; Toxic Parents by Susan Forward is a good starting point and you may also want to read the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers website.

Not seen mum since I popped in on weds
Til this morning
I dropped ds2 off at a party and as I drove down the hill I saw mum walking to my brothers new house
Dh and I have been chatting about it all and he agrees with me that superficial is the way to go
Lots of talk of weather and who's dead...
Ds2 isn't well again so weekend plans may change

Is there any kind of typical timeline for making real peace with having toxic parents. I mean just accepting it, maintaining good boundaries, feeling no/little FOG and on a day-to-day basis giving them no headspace?

My lightbulb moment came approx. 3 years ago by reading this thread - between them my parents tick just about every box for covert narcissism and are very co-dependent with each other. Since then I've read a lot, accepted that they won't change, had a lot of counselling but I STILL give them loads of headspace.

I am pretty LC now (easy - I simply stopped making the effort) but still find them utterly draining to be around - even a simple 30 min grey rock chat over a cup of tea can wind me up for days before and after. They make no effort with the GC, despite living locally and being fit and healthy - apart from insisting on being hosted on birthdays/Christmas (I still do that but at a time that is convenient to me - they DO NOT like that at all).

The obvious answer is to go NC but the fallout from that living locally...and I'm still not sure it will solve the problem. The problem being the sheer amount of time they are in my head! ARGH!!!

The absolute worst thing is that I find myself having less patience and being less happy around my own DC because I'm thinking about them/what they've said/done/haven't done.

I guess I could go back to counselling but after 20+ sessions feel I shouldn't still be in this place. I have made progress - I've accepted it as true, I feel much less FOG but I accept that there is still some there. Just think I got to a point with the counsellor that I couldn't get beyond.

CoxxoC I think if it was possible for you to be properly NC - like if you lived further away from them - then slowly they would start to take up less headspace. I mean, I haven't seen my mother in 2 years and there are still times that I remember something and I'm suddenly churning it over in my mind again, but not often, not now.
It sounds like you would like to be able to train yourself to be unaffected by them. But you grew up in that dysfunction, probably hypervigilant to little changes in mood and things like that, and you don't just switch off a lifetime's training just like that. I would go so far as to say that you are resorting to childhood patterns there, in that you want to be able to change yourself to solve the problem, when actually you're not the problem. Not that that helps you any, I know, as they are not going to change and you need to be able to manage those times you see them.

I lived with this level of LC for years - Christmas and birthdays, and I felt at the time it was worth it so that we could all plausibly claim that we got along, and I walked this tightrope of the most contact I could bear Vs the least contact we could have and she still claim to have a good relationship with me. But so many shite Christmases and birthdays. It's a shame. I don't know what to tell you really. But I think that your giving them headspace is natural really.

Thank you toomuchtooold. I've been mulling over your reply now for over an hour - it makes such a lot of sense. All of it. Thank you.

I think I was getting increasingly desperate to 'sort this out'. Even in the last few months I've tried several of things and none have helped beyond a bit of temporary light relief - writing down as many anecdotes of their behaviour as I can remember; saying a mantra over and over when they come into my head; playing 'bingo' with DH before and after a visit; grey rock...

I daydream of moving away and going NC or at least VLC...I've even run it past DH. Apart from getting away from them it would make no sense for us as a family to do this now.

CoxxoC have you consudered trying a different Counsellor? If there was a point 'you couldn't get beyond' it may be that they didn't have enough experience with toxic family dynamics to help you? I've always understood that when dealing with deep rooted, long term issues, it can take many months or even years of therapy to untangle it all - so from that POV, 20 sessions isn't really that much...

Apologies if I'm oversimplifying (I probably am) but is there any benefit to you of staying in contact? It sounds as if all they do is give you more crap to mull over and feel miserable about every time you see them. If you don't want to see them, you don't have to, no matter how local they are - unless they literally live opposite you etc.. I do understand how hard it is. My M lives pretty close to me, and for years I wrangled with how to see her wiithout it upsetting me for days. But I've now been NC for six months and finally I do feel that I'm getting somewhere. Yes theres still plenty of crap in my head to deal with, but at least it shrinks a bit every time I deal with some if it, and there's no new crap being added to it any more

Yes, I have considered trying a different counsellor BadTasteFlump - not because I don't think my current counsellor understands toxic family dynamics though. I think she does. I have a lot of respect for her and I do appreciate the distance I have come with her. She thinks we haven't gone deep enough yet - I think she is right but I struggle with that. I guess I am being too impatient with it all but part of me does think I need to accept this now and move on as best I can.

I have considered CBT in addition to or instead of my current counselling. It might be time to try this. In addition to the ruminating about my parents there are other things I do/don't do that I would like to make positive steps with.

No, I don't think you are oversimplifying it - there probably isn't much point in staying in contact. I thought I had reached a point where it would be ok, manageable. The way things are going I think I am going to end up putting up stronger and stronger boundaries and seeing them less and less often until we get to a point of NC. There is very little new crap now (just predictable reactions to things and predictable patterns of behaviour) as we give them very little opportunity for it. I think that is why I think I should be able to cope with them better.

Thank you BadTasteFlump and toomuchtooold - it has really helped to have these things pointed out by people that really understand .

When your counsellor wants to ‘go deeper’, maybe it’s because she feels you have understood intellectually what has happened to you, but you haven’t fully worked through your feelings from your childhood yet. I think if you don’t do that you get ‘stuck’.

I’d agree that going NC eventually is probably what you should aim for, but I’m the worst person to give you that advice because I haven’t managed it myself. I know that in my case I have this nagging feeling that my M hasn’t done enough bad stuff to warrant NC. In fact that’s irrelevant and it’s how she affects ME, and what is best for ME, that matters. I know this in principle but just can’t seem to get my head around it in practice. So I see where you are coming from, but I wonder whether the fact that your Ps live close to you is maybe a bit of a red herring that you’re using as an excuse to avoid having to put your needs first.

I totally get the ‘predictable crap’. It’s infuriating that despite being predictable it still affects us.

That's exactly what she means SpareBedroom - I am fairly rubbish at it, although I have tried and there have been breakthroughs. Awakening the depth of feeling is hard work though - easier to cast it aside and 'get a grip' - although clearly that only works on a superficial level and not in the long run.

That's just it - your second paragraph. Thank you. Hopefully we will get to a place of peace one day - even if it is one little step at a time.

Hi...the other day i had a FB message from my friend and she told me she had sensed all along i was being abused by my parents and was sayiong she regrets not telling an adult.

am i being ungrateful to not know how to respond to this?

Sorry, i am a long time lurker but i decided to post today. i should introduce myself. i was abused by my DF for years and my DGF. in different ways. i am in my 30s but it strarted when i was about 2, i also grew up in domestic violence. i do not know if i a posting int he right place for this kind of thing?

Interestingly mum hasn't phoned or text since the day I told her a few home truths
So nearly 4 weeks...
I will pop in tomorrow after the school run for 10 mins

Name changed!! I had an abusive childhood, but I've only realised this recently. My mother seemed to hate me/be jealous of me. Burn marks on my hands from when I was 7, called a whore from the age of 11. She threw me out when I was eighteen. My weak father never intervened. My mother died 16 years ago. I gave my father another chance. The doting Grandfather. He helped us with doing our house up, came on holiday with us, spent Christmas' with us. Then this year my 13 year old daughter left a note on our bed to tell us he had been raping her since she was 9!! World torn apart. No more. no more!!

I’ve just found this thread. I feel like I’m losing my mind as it’s sort of just dawned on me my mother doesn’t want me, neither does my brother and they never have yet have been manipulating me.

Childhood. Volatile, unstable moods in my dad who is dead. My mum protected him helping myself and my brother to adopt behaviour that pacified my dads rages. She worked weekends and left him in charge of us. He neglected us. Mum would disappear for a week or two to visit family. One of these times was during my brothers a levels and he moved out as my dad was threatening him. She now only sees my dad through rose glasses.
Dad died of sepsis. I can’t remember a thing around that time. My mum tells me no one was there, she had no help. I think I was there. I can’t remember. She has never asked how I felt. I became skeletal after his death and had a breakdown yet kept functioning. My brother was distant. He never mentioned my dad again.
Mum fell out with her family. She had a particularly toxic niece who verbally abused her. She never told my brother or I for years. She told me at a funeral 3years ago I could have done more. When I said I didn’t know she said she was sure she told me.
She now constantly talks about her neice and the hurtful words. It’s like a record on repeat. I suggested maybe neice had a bad temper and flew into rages. She held that against me and today she said ‘awww you said (neice) has a little temper, poor pet in a little temper’ in a mocking voic
She tells me constantly that’s she tells everyone who will listen about her awful family. She says ‘I have the most awful family’ . She says everyone tells her she is in her own and has no one. I drive 200 miles every week to spend the day with her and call her every day. She never excludes me from the awful family or I’m alone topics. She says I didn’t think much of her because I left home.
She tells me constantly about people who have helped her in the past. She never acknowledges my input, never says thanks and never actually calls me. I had cancer and she never mentioned it to me yet spent time crying to neighbours about how she felt. The C word has never been mentioned in 11years now.
She just made a noise last year when I got my masters then went swiftly onto talking about her neice. If I call her out on anything she says ‘I’m so sorry im not perfect like your MIL’
My brother lives abroad and I barely speak to him. He doesn’t support me or my mum emotionally or otherwise. He is very cold spoken.
Anyway it came to a head today. I drove there and she started talking about her neice and how her neighbour had told her she was on her own with no one. There was an argument. I tried to say I was doing my best to do this solicitor related work for her. She said I was attacking her and went upstairs and locked herself in her bedroom. She asked me to go and said I needn’t come back.
I’m sat here crying and I feel terrible. She’s not all bad but i feel like I’ve made things very bad.

discombobulated I’m so sorry this is happening to you. I didn’t see your post before I put mine on otherwise I would have waited. You must be feeling an unspeakable level of trauma and my thoughts are with you.

Discombobulated...im so so sorry x

Discombobulated...im so so sorry x