"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Chest my mother used to break or throw out things of mine. My intuition about it was that she wanted to start a fight in which she could claim to be the injured party because she made an honest mistake and then I got angry at her. I think with NPD people they have a feeling, and then if there's nothing obvious they can blame it on without losing face then they engineer a situation that justifies the feeling. With my mother, she probably felt hard done by because we were paying her less than 100 percent attention. I never raised any of it with her because I didn't want to give her the reward of a drama. I have no idea how you win that situation because if you raise it with them they enjoy the drama and if you don't, they get away with it.

Nora my mother refused ever to buy peanut butter because I had tried it once and didn't like it. Once. When I was 4. She recounted this to me in the supermarket when I was 12.

This thread makes me so sad. I had a really difficult upbringing and for a long time tried to convince myself it was unusual - I look at my kids and can't every imagine hurting them.

My father was sexually abusive, my step father physically abusive, my mother was... I don't think there's even a word for what she was. We reconciled and became close in the end when she had cancer but that's what it took apparently, I'm so sorry others have experienced the same.

Ok....
Wills done
Been having a huge sort out which always makes me feel oddly "lighter" somehow
Went out for lunch with dh which was nice for a change
Back to school and work next week so I'm Hoping being back in routine helps my mood.
I have some work to do re my voluntary role but it can wait til tomorrow

I've not NC, no one will recognise me from RL cos they don't care. I stopped dealing with people after my mum slammed my head into the patio door when I was 11 because my older brother die.

Hi, long time lurker, been nodding along for years. Bit stuck now and wondering what to do. Sorry in advance for the long one.

There's M, Sis and BIL, and me. Sis and BIL live far away. Huge dysfunction from generations of alcohol, narcissism and control in the family. Having DC was the triggger for me, as i couldn't bear to treat them like M and exH told me I should. Have nodded my head along to almost all but the sexual abuse on the SH threads, even now scales still fall from my eyes, mumsnet has really saved my life, doing therapy, regular freedom programme and books etc. Maintained cordial relations, helped M regularly with her issues, paperwork, etc. Visited Sis and BIL with the children once and so on. Sis and BIL have not supported M, but have gone to visit her for months at a time for the last four years, she lives near a ski resort.

It turned out last year that M had helped Sis and BIL buy a house with a large loan. They have not repaid anything yet and apparently M has told them she does not want it repaid. It was at a time I moved and had asked for everyone's support - no response, they were doing this behind my back. I couldn't breathe properly for weeks after I found out.

They did it very well. It took over a year until a few weeks ago to get M to the point that she wanted to do the same for me. It was a long slog. Excluded from family meetings, total character assassination of me, still I was helping M with her issues all through it.

Now it's not happening again. They've told M that if she lent me the money she'd not see me or her grandchildren for dust, I'd stick her in a home etc. Written emails to me copy to M how they despise my methods and manipulation.

Despite the difficulties I cannot leave M alone with her issues, mostly getting her help to do paperwork, pay bills, tax return, Sis does none of that. I appreciate M is concerned about where she ends up and the arrangement was that she would move closer to me and I would ensure she is properly cared for (city), would be able to pop in more regularly, etc. Now Sis and BIL are vocally against this plan, have suggested M moves to them. They live isolated two hours from a city, need to drive to get anywhere, M knows no one there.

I guess Sis and BIL want M's money all to themselves. Any ideas? I do often think about NC with the lot of them, but a loan like that would give me and the DC a valuable degree of security, I do work but one never knows. Also I would be the one to get it in the neck for not supporting M as I am closer.

Thanks for reading.

Sorry, such a selfish post and only about money, probably seeming very grabby. I do also have the usual changing my way of dealing with toxic people and trying to stop attracting them, parenting children properly and differently to how I was treated, self-care and exH issues. It would be good to knock the loan one on the head, it takes far too much head-space and I do mean to contribute here when I am able.

I don't think you sound selfish, don't worry. I think it's normal to feel the way you do, particularly when faced with unfairness all the time. Why shouldn't you and DC benefit in the same way as your Sis?

My first thought though is do you want your M to live out her last years with/near you? Why? Sounds like it won't be good for you at all. Why do you feel you can't leave M to it? If you can get this loan (though it sounds like it was a gift to Sis) by all means do it but personally I'd then leave Sis to it in terms of your M, let her move closer to Sis etc. If Sis is angling for all the money I think - let her. Better that you can focus on you and DC and have a nicer life rather than deal with all the drama? I guess it's easy for me to say from the outside though.

What do you mean by taking a year to get M to want to do the same for you? What was the process? None of it sounds worth it. Is the cost of the 'loan' that you then take care of M forever?

It just sounds messy I guess and more and more I'm realising that it's far better to leave people to their dramas. I don't always take my own advice though!

I was a whipping boy for my Mother and later Stepfather, all my life.. I did everything for them, heaven knows why. She went on an on about 'the house'. How much it was worth how we would inherit. She died at 95, he died 6 months later. The sense of relieve that I would never have to listen to their ungrateful, nastiness ever again was like being let out of prison.

The house was worth a massive amount and as soon as the money hit the bank, I divided the whole lot between my children. It would have choked me to spend one penny of her money. I can see her now, whirling in her grave at that "Act of stupidity"

She was so mean mouthed and mean with money. When I did voluntary work she said I was insane and said "I like to be paid for what I do". Everyone was a Scrounger and a leech. She would say every time we visited, I was going to, buy you/the kids...... but I know how fussy you are.

She would recycle presents, boast about buying all of us the same gift at Christmas. We knew everything was three for two or BOGOF. She always had to buy the largest gift for the cheapest price. Toys never lasted beyond the first few weeks. I have never told anyone this before as only on here do people really understand that I feel a sense of revenge.

Pithiver...my mum is mean spirited too
She thinks im mad to do my volunteering work

...I've altered my will
My family get nothing
Nada
Zilch
Feels liberating 😀

Money is just another form of control to them. It’s just like the presents thing, only supersized.

I did wonder the other day how I would feel if my M disinherited me, and I realised that the emotional fallout from that would (for me) be harder than the financial fallout. It would hurt that she’d been mean enough to do that, but I think actually not having her money would be freeing in a funny kind of way. But then, my M has always been good at emotional manipulation - that’s her modus operandi - so probably it’s no surprise that I’d feel that. I think if your particular family brand of manipulation had always involved money or gifts, you’d feel a lot more strongly about it.

I think what I’m saying is, if you feel manipulated into doing things by the promise of money, it might be worth looking into your childhood to see if you’ve been conditioned to be like that, and then asking yourself whether you yourself truly believe that that’s a good basis for making emotionally coherent decisions.

Many thanks for your kind responses, you really do get it. Unfairness all the time. The drama. Definitely money manipulation/ conditioning always. Mean spirited and no thought in presents. My therapist asked last week why I don't cry sometimes. It just seems like a waste of energy.
The last years near me as long as not under the same roof would not be bad, would save me 8-9 hours drive per weekend often with lively DC in tow.
As for just leaving Sis to it: this is only the start. The amounts involved are substantial. Can I really walk away? ExH does not contribute to the DC (he follows all the script) so they depend entirely on me. And I have a long time to go until they are all adult.
There is a bit of sunken costs fallacy there too. I have put quite a bit of effort in. The one year process was mostly trying to communicate and when that failed and dramatically so - since as soon as i was close, Sis and BIL came on no notice to spend two months with M - then mobilising people M listens to to get active on my behalf.
Then again, letting it go and maintaining contact and support as now (it's no so much work and I'm at least an efficient whipping girl) might perversely achieve the desired effect in that M gives the loan to reel me back in.

I'd love the benefit for the children. That's the logical decision. An emotionally coherent decision it is not. What price financial security?

Yes to the no crying!!
Thexlast time anyone saw me cry was my dad's fu real 4.5 years ago.
Before that?
Years.
Never saw the point.
At school I was bullied for crying and at hone I was ignored.

I agree...at what price?
I'm simply not willing to keep risking my emotional, mental and physical health for the possibilty of an inheritance. I sincerely doubt there will be anything left anyway.
I would truly rather she spent the lot.
My kids don't go without and have a great relationship with my pils.
My siblings feel rather differently I fear....

Atumn

I would walk away from all your dysfunctional family of origin.

At least you are aware of the sunken costs fallacy which basically causes people to keep on making daft decisions. The idea of sunk cost states that an investment of money, time or energy must not necessarily influence your continued investment of money, time or energy. The past investment is “sunk” into the endeavor and cannot be recouped. It is gone. Ongoing investment will not resuscitate what is gone when the investment is a bad one.

People get bogged down by focusing on their sunk costs.
There are two ways to understand this process, both involving avoidance. One is an avoidance of disappointment or loss when something doesn’t work out. When a relationship doesn’t succeed, especially after a long period, especially after many shared experiences and especially after developing a hope that the relationship would be a good one, it is a loss. It is a loss of what might have been and an acknowledgement that a part of one’s life has been devoted to this endeavour.

Another angle to evaluate is that focus on “sunk cost” creates a distraction from one’s inner truth. The sentence often goes like, “I’ve already invested to much, so I can’t notice my thoughts and feelings that are telling me to end or change this relationship.”

This is a type of insidious defense against noticing yourself. You enter into a neglectful relationship with yourself which divorces you from your inner thoughts and the quiet feelings that might guide you in your life. In other words, thinking about what already has been may prevent you from deciding what you want your life to be.

That loan will be held over your head like the sword of Damocles and will come at huge cost to your own family unit. I would never ever accept any money from any of your family of origin under any circumstances; it will be simply used to control you even if it is given. Your sister and her H want all the cash to themselves and your mother still plays her role in this overall dysfunction.

I was going to ask what the amounts are. If it's substantial as you say, that does make it difficult, particularly if you feel your sort of deserve it now for offering lots of support (that sounds quite harsh, I hope you know what I mean).

I've always felt a bit bitter that it's the reverse for me, M never had money anyway and then was addicted to heroin so there was even less. I must have given her thousands over the years, my money was never just my money and I always gave out of guilt and a sense that family should help one another. By the time I realised where it was going it was too late, I was mid twenties, no savings, lots of debt and nothing to show for it. I have 8k left to pay off which at this rate will take another 10+ years. I know loads of wealthy people too, 8k would be a drop in the ocean to them. I have to try very hard not to be jealous because it's not a nice way to be. My M still says she didn't spend my money on drugs. Only on bills etc. She must know that it's the same thing - she couldn't pay said bills due to drugs after all

ANYWAY my point is though I find it hard it does mean she doesn't have any kind of financial hold on me, and the work I'm doing lessens the emotional hold which in some ways is easier to get rid of because it's work you do yourself. I don't need her to change to change my feelings. When money is involved that's not the case. And like you say it's not just you but potential future security for your children. PPs are right though, it's another form of control.

Exactly. If she'd only spend it all on herself. She could definitely do with some fun. Her own childhood was no piece of cake.

But no, there was no money - until details of the loan started emerging. Then recently a phase of yes, there's enough for you too, I'll transfer it tomorrow. Now again: I made an administrative mistake with the transfer. And I don't think I have enough money anyway.

Maybe I am now finally at the point you described, Badders, no longer willing to risk my health.

Crying is meant to be cathartic. I don't remember.

And a huge thank you for your kind and understanding responses. Proper lump in my throat here

I wish I could hug you
I'm good at hugs
I have a very capacious bosom 😁😂❤

I'm baking atm
covered in flour and sweaty
Mum is celiac
She refuses to follow a GF diet despite boasting she would find it easy 🤔
I spent hours one weeks d making GF bread, cakes, sausage rolls...
I think she binned most of it 😔

Can I join? NPD m, F is slave to M, sibling is golden child, I'm scapegoat.
I've been NC with M for almost 2 months after her awful behaviour ruining yet another of my DC birthday. I will not let her do that again. Strangely she hasn't tried to reel me back in yet so it's been pleasantly peaceful. Yet at the same time i feel sad, sad we're not loved and sad she'll never be supportive or see the truth or apologise. I think she thinks she was wronged and is actually ignoring me. This is mildly amusing to me as I have gone NC and feel a bit empowered by it. I'm on edge and nervous though about what will come next. She always plays the victim after abusing me but the worst bit is my nice F believing her every time. She sickens me.

I want to read all the resources posted but don't feel strong enough to face the past. I'm totally on my own and too scared of falling apart. My biggest fear is being like M and damaging my DC. Can anyone point me in the direction of useful resourses on being better and not repeating what was done to you? I have ptsd from exh and when i feel triggered by DC behaviour and then my strong feelings trigger childhood memories/feelings and i don't know how to cope.

Hi prettypaws

Welcome

I would have a look at the "daughters of narcissistic mothers" website as this could help you. It also describes the roles that husbands to narcissistic wives play.

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and I would maintain no contact. You do not need them, they need you far more. Women like your mother cannot do relationships and always but always need a willing enabler to help them; in your case your dad. He cannot be at all relied upon either, he is her hatchet man who threw you under the bus to protect his own skin. He may well be as narcissistic as she is; their relationship anyway is dysfunctional to say the very least.

Many such people have a fear of turning into their narcissist mother but you are your own separate person, you are not your mother and you would not dream of treating your children in the same ways you have been treated by her. You also have two qualities that she lacks; empathy and insight. So you will not turn into her. Your children do not need a narcissistic grandmother and her enabler of a H in their lives either. She has simply used those children as her narcissistic supply and none of what you have written is surprising at all; these people do work to a well worn script.

A previously unknown health scare or other tests involving visits to the GP or hospital for some unspecified reason may now occur.

Do not accept any presents from them for the DC or yourself going forward; no contact is precisely this. Any such items sent to you should be disposed of without any acknowledgement from you. They may well not let go of you easily; infact I would half expect some of this to occur at some point. They may well try and hoover you back in, do not fall for it.

I would also now watch out for the "flying monkeys"; these could range from your golden child sibling to other more distant family and friends who are more gullible so therefore more easily manipulated by mother and father into doing their dirty work for them. They may contact you and put pressure on you to reconcile or otherwise come back into their dysfunctional fold. Flying monkeys have no interest in hearing your side of things and their opinion needs to be roundly ignored.

Thank you all so very much for your responses about my parents disposing of all my private childhood stuff and lying about it. It's meant so much, I've kept reading and rereading.

Yes I am not allowed anger. Never have been. I observed with interest the techniques my M used to make sure I didn't have the space to react or tell her how angry I was.

And yes part of why this is so devastating is that it's undeniably bad, and I still want them to be OK and for all of this to be a horrible mistake and get back to normal.

M really got in my head with it. I keep getting convinced that I'm wrong and she's right. Despite having actual evidence. Gaslighting is so powerful isn't it.

My next step is to send a message to them asking for answers to some specific questions about it. I am terrified. It is going to go very badly. After that I am going to calmly say what I need ie for them to take full responsibility, apologise properly, and try to make it right.

Excuse me while I walk off laughing bitterly.

Autumn you could try an exercise listing pros and cons. Obviously there is a big financial advantage to sticking wih it but there are other costs - the time spent, the impact on your children, the indebtedness and control, the unpleasantness from your sibling, the impact on you and your mental health, your sense of independence, and so on. You could even see it as a kind of costings sheet but seeing 'cost' as a broader thing than just financial. And then you could see which is most 'cost effective'.

badders capacious bosom