"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

tammy muddling pith sorry for what you have been through. Do keep posting and sharing if it is helping.

flump yes I do remember about the VCR, how devastating to have her do that. And then the game playing and lies... Awful.

keep getting convinced that I'm wrong and she's right. Despite having actual evidence. Gaslighting is so powerful isn't it

Yep

I have evidence too. I know what she gave to my brother. But no. The bank got it wrong. 🤔

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad

I don't understand why she lies about stuff that's so easily disproved?

I'm also waiting for the medical emergency phone call attila

Autumn It might be worth questioning why you feel having that money will benefit your children. I know it's nice to have extra or to do away with worries but really ask why you're putting yourself through this.

I'm advising caution because I had the same mindset, but then I realised that it was part of my conditioning as a child to have money/gifts/stuff dangled like a carrot and then snatched away. It was not given willingly or with love to me as a child and as an adult I was enabling them to perpetuating their dangling of that carrot by seeing a cash reward as a win. I was not and never have been a greedy money obsessed person but like you I was thinking of my children's future or because of this reason or that reason, or at least I thought I was. Only I wasn't, I was still chasing that carrot because that is what I had been trained to do. It's not an uncommon manipulation tool, but people who love you don't break promises and if they give they give willingly.

On yes I have the carrot waved at me too. I was offered several things (appliance type) as I'm on an unpredictable low income and in a fixer upper property. Nothing materialized and the reasons were nonsense. Even a long weekend for sibling and i and our kids for our combined birthdays was dangled and removed. I try to not get excited or rely on the occasional childcare, gifts or any help that's offered as it'll likely never materialize, but somehow I do still get upset and feel rejected. I think it's precisely because I (have no one and am disabled so) rely on this supposed help that M enjoys controlling and hurting me by removing it.

M learnt that a relative had given me a gift and that another had visited one afternoon.. both these things have never happened before and M got very angry at me. She stated i "have everyone running around after you all the time", but reality is that I'm isolated, fleeing DV and have been very unwell whilst looking after SN child alone. I thought it was her projecting a F runs around doing everything for her. Or maybe some kind of jealousy that anyone could be kind to me? She makes me scared to talk to any relatives and now as an adult and parent myself i can see how she's isolated me from them all.

M has long given the impression my relatives are not interested in me, that they never cared and are ashamed and embarrassed by my lack of successful career and marriage. My only grandparent wants to keep in touch but I keep worrying what M said is true and i don't know what to say if I ever see them? I feel very sad at having no family but I don't want to cause more upset.

Badders many thanks for the hug, mich appreciated. So strange how I sometime a used to ask exH for an urgent hug and he'd decline as I'd asked for it so it couldn't be real. But he never offered. Starved of affection, me, and yes to the carrots snatched away.

The carrot here is I could buy a small house with just a tiny mortgage, which I could always earn enough to cover.

The list of cons is pretty impressive too though.

I am back again. And actively pursuing a no (Dh’s preferred option) to low contact option.

We’ve had a hell of a month which started off with being unexpectedly evicted from our home.

Thankfully my lovely inlaws wouldn’t see us on the streets and while it has been a squeeze, we are about to sign the contracts on a new home.

My own parents, despite offering help, failed to come through when we actually asked them to help. I don’t mind that they didn’t help really, just that they made all the right noises about ‘you could have stayed with us as we have more room’ and ‘if you need any help getting a new place then ask’ but when we turned round and said actually, we need help with X and is this something you can do, spent 2 weeks chuntering about needing a and b, then c. And finally offering option d. I felt like screaming “if you don’t want to help or can’t help please just be honest and say so” I actually did put the phone down on them one day as they just weren’t listening to what I was trying to say, and it was also the day we were at the hospital for an appointment with Ds1 so I didn’t have time or privacy to make the conversation what it needed to be.

But the biggest and most final straw is that our son got an adhd diagnosis. We have been battling for years for someone to acknowledge our struggle with him and see what we see. Finally there has been a chink of light and we have a diagnosis and further referrals. My parents could not be less interested, or even acknowledge that we aren’t bad parents or making it up. And that really, really hurts. They’ve made situations worse with Ds1 in the past by refusing to allow him his comfort routine, by shouting at him and trying to force him to do things he simply cannot do. They have bad mouthed our son to others, presumably thinking it won’t get back to us.

I am just done. I don’t want them visiting us at our new address as they have already tried to taint that. I don’t want to be on tenterhooks waiting for the next round of abuse about my husband to be delivered and I am fed up of defending my children to them when the kids are just being themselves. Also of having my parenting pulled apart by two people who are supposed to love you unconditionally.

Mum never hugged me
Dad did
I'm a hugger :)

tiny house with small mortgage.

Sorry to hear that pretty paws. I doubt your GM who wants to keep in touch will be put off by any supposed lack of success. Some people you just cannot do anything right for, however successful you are.

As there is so much hostility from all your family but your GM still wants to keep in touch, I wonder whether your GM is perhaps a clever cookie who has cottoned on to the manipulation.

Have one back Badders, sadly less capaciously.

I don't remember being hugged, except perhaps in front of other people. I do know as an adult I have had to draw boundaries against touching, especially from the back. It's amazing how many men do it.

I am joining you. Will take me a while to express it all, if ever.

But back to the hugs. (Never got any that I remember when growing up from anyone).

My littlest nephew has ASD. He is twelve now but 8 in real life if you understand. When he arrives at my door he dives into me and hugs the life out of me, it is just so wonderful. For both of us it has to be said.

His dad said recently, just wait till auntie flower opens the door it will be big hugs all round. Yes said he, I can't wait! How lovely is that!

Just to lighten the mood somewhat. But our other earlier familial difficulties will be there until we expire. It will never leave us. Sadly. But maybe it will for some, but for many it won't. I am one of them.

Hello,
I don’t know what to put as things cannot really change but if I don’t tell someone I may explode.
I’m in my 30’s now married with 2 children and they are really why I stay in contact with my mum.
My dad died when I was young, I don’t remember him. Mum had a two long term relationships and a couple of boyfriends; my first step father sexually assaulted me (no one knows) he left and when he was leaving I witnessed him being physically violent to her. She now thinks he’s wonderful. She then had a couple of boyfriends who were a bit careless with where they placed their hands. She then married my second step father. It was here they were the worst. They made us go to church every week and appear to be a happy family. She tried to sexually abuse me but she walked in before too much happened, he never tried any again but I was controlled to the point of I couldn’t buy a Cd.
One of the church elders came to discuss me sitting upstairs in my room (I was a teenager) and this was wrong because we would be spending time as a family) read: him telling us what to watch on tv. So I couldn’t be away from them.
I could ever really go out because there would be massive arguments when I git in.
I always wanted to teach but couldn’t go to uni because it ‘would cost too much money’.
My life was awful until I left and even then she never once stuck up for me. I had my son at 23 and everything was ok for a while. I left my sons dad as he was emotionally abusive and met my husband and dc father. Things have come to a head again she has left the stepfather and shacked up with someone else. She thinks we constantly talk about her and tell him things (we,me and my sister, still speak to him as he is ill and has no ther family) she always talks over us and isn’t interested in us or our lives.
I don’t know what I want I just feel better that’s it’s out. There is so much more I just feel like I had every bit of confidence knocked out of me I have never made anything of myself and now we have no money to try.

Your mother failed you abjectly as a parent (an understatement) and continues to fail you now. She remains selfish beyond compare and continues only to put her own self interest first.

Your religious elders failed you as well by not listening to you properly and also keeping the abuse under wraps.

I would not see this woman now under any circumstances; your children are not good enough reason to see her in any case. She was not a good parent to you, why would see be any sort of a decent grandmother sort to them?. Toxic parents more often than not make out to become toxic grandparents as well. She has put you down more than enough to cause you great pain, do not let her do similar to your children.

The saga of my childhood stuff continues. Won't write it all here as I am on my phone be. Basically I texted a very clear friendly message about what I needed to know. Got a big email back that on the face of it looks calm and OK but when you read it carefully it's full of denial, shirking responsibility, and fake non-apologies. It makes me out to be the problem. I think I am now going to call. Pursue the answers I need and then tell her why she has done wrong and that she needs to properly apologise etc. That's going to go well.....!!!!!!!! I need to do it for me though I think. Any thoughts welcome, I am just going through agony wih it all really.

flower that's really lovely. And yes, always survivors, but there's happiness out there for us all too I think. Keep posting if it helps.

Chest

It will be a complete waste of time phoning your mother because you will receive the same type of non response and or non apology as you have in her e-mail. Please do not do that to yourself. It will not achieve anything and will make you feel worse. Phoning her also shows her that you still care about this stuff that she (deliberately to my mind) got rid of.

I would now seriously consider blocking her from contacting you in any form. Show her that you no longer care about it (to her anyway even though you do); do not give her and this matter any more power than it has already.

Chest I have to agree with Attila. Calling your M isn't going to make you feel any better or give you any answers. I understand how you feel, I really do, but your M is not the person to help you feel any better, she will just make it worse.

I can honestly say I only started seeing things clearly and feeling like my life was my own after I stopped seeing my M - I would also recommend speaking to a Counsellor if you can. It's hard dealing with a lifetime of bullshit on your own

I've not posted for a while to everyone here.
Just wanted to say chest that I have had a similar experience with my parents getting rid of my childhood stuff. Ironically their very big house is bursting at the seams with their 'collections' including my m's massive haul of vintage baby clothes and toys. It really says a lot that she hasn't kept a single item from either of her own children's childhoods but has plenty of space for those belonging to random people.
They have so, so much stuff and as I said a massive house but as dc we were always made to feel like our things were in the way. We had to give our toys away before we'd even really grown out of them, and I remember being really upset when my dad took a load of our books to the tip without even asking us, we were still kids and still reading them!
It is shit cos it's surely natural that items from your childhood mean a lot to you, your parents not caring for those things feels like yet another rejection of you as a person.

Ugh - apologies everyone. I'm just going to blurt out my crap and leave. I find it therapeutic to record this somewhere public.

Anyway narcissistic f arrives this week. Sadly 12 months ahead of schedule. He usually visits every other year and we'd had z visit last year. But I had major surgery with complications which meant I nearly crapped out on the table. So f leapt into caring parent performance. The op was scheduled. He'd known of op in advance for at least 6 months but only showed any interest/concern day before. Anyway concern turns into drama with him insisting on visiting. I had house full of relatives providing care and initially suggested another time would be better eventuslly had to state very firmly now was not good time to visit as inconvenient. Anyway much huffing and puffing on his part. I remember thinking how incredibly apparent it is that all this drama is about him. Nothing to do with what I want or my wellbeing.
Anyway the postponed visit takes place on Thursday. He's in full on victim mode asking about my convenience at every turn. The visit was scheduled and agreed in early September. It's 4 nights (air bnb thank God). But now he's all extra - asking me if he can come by on the Thursday or if Friday is more convenient. I know this is a play. He's now going to be super considerate and hesitant victim playing so as to makr out that my refusing a visit before was over sensitive. Or I'm over sensitive and he has to be super careful around Mt. Basically underlying message is I'm the wierd one. I'm not wierd. I had surgery I had my hands full. He suggested a last minute 'deathbed' visit and I said no as I wasn't on my deathbed anymore, I had too much company/support already as I'd rallied family to help with care. I think some of this drama on his end is he's reputation managing. He's concerned for his image given that I was very ill. He's paid little to no attention until it was suddenly really bad. And other parts of family were there to witness this. (In his mjnd). So now he will do a big play about him being excluded. The only thing to do is not react and not engage with this in hope he will move his circus and his monkeys on asap. Just don't respond. Do the minimum and once it's over its over.

Breathe.
Really sorry to ignore everyone else. Although I must say going nc was best thing I ever did. If I could turn this lc into nc without drama I would.

Autumn and Chest - fwiw I gave up stuff for freedom. My f is hugely wealthy. I had z time when I felt quite tied up in that. Fairness and unfairness of it being divided up in different ways. Some of ithe comes from my much loved grandmother on my mother's side and it broke my heart one to leave that all behind. But my f controls people with money. We have enough which makes that easier but I don't regret just not being tied to him - even just in my head.

DD’s birthday today (a biggie) and M has sent a present which, as usual, says far more about her than it does about DD. Basically a typically crap present.

(As an aside, I spent years ‘feeding’ my M present ideas for the rest of my family, at her request - basically enabling her without realising it and covering up her inadequacies in the present giving department, because one of the facets of my M’s false self is that she wants to appear to be the perfect matriarch, so I unwittingly supported her in that. But I stopped doing it a couple of years ago because I got fed up of being stuck in the middle. Since then my M’s present giving has emerged as the disaster it presumably always would have been without my help.)

I wouldn’t care if it was my own birthday, and DD is pretty sanguine (even kind of amused) that the present is as out-of-touch as usual. But it has upset me.

I know, I know, M’s personality disorder, if that what it is, is indiscriminate. So she will be as useless at getting presents for DD as she is at getting them for anyone else. But it feels really unfair that DD gets dragged into the mess.

Ds2 is poorly atm
Back to Drs today for more tablets a d we have to go back a to see Dr on Thursday
My sister knows he is ill. She knows he was at the dr this morning.
Has she asked how he is?
Text?
Has she fuck
Me and my family are just....an afterthought

An afterthought. That describes it perfectly. And we are worth so much more!

It was my b day a couple of weeks ago
Mum gave me £20 in a man's card

My sister gave me earrings she got free last year i got one of her old chopping boards
My brother didn't even get me a card

It's taken me 45 years but I've started treating then how they treat me

No doubt I will be painted as an evil monster...

I hope you shredded the card and threw out the freebie earrings.

Free yourself from such awful people badders; after all you would not tolerate this from a friend.

An "afterthought" is the word I would use as well to describe myself when it comes to my MIL in particular.

Badders, I am so sorry, that seems even worse than not getting anything like me a couple of weeks ago. Thank God for great, thoughtful and kind friends. And this thread.