"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello all,
Last time I posted it was about whether or not to write a letter to my M and post it. I did, pages of it. Lots of anger came out. I did not send it.
I know nothing good will come of it because the emotional manipulation and denial will be overwhelming.
I have gone VLC. I don't want to chat, grey rock or otherwise, certainly not FaceTime as it send my anxiety through the roof. I've been hounded by my family though, texts, emails etc and the emails from my mum confirm the expected denial. I'm never going to get an apology from her, or ever a level-headed conversation about it because she will deny it and make excuses for her behaviour and I will get increasingly anxious, upset and riled by her.
I currently have a lot of disbelief about their lack of respect for my need for space, I'm given deadlines months, Christmas coming up, reasons such as illness and then asking me when will I be ready. I keep saying I will let you know. Or even more frustrating, straight up informing me that they'd like to see me on x date, as if nothing has ever happened. They want everything to go back to normal, brush everything under the carpet and forget about it.
I feel like it isn't on my terms, I still don't feel like I can control this VLC.
Why does this happen and how can I go forward?
Being VLC has been really beneficial for me, until I receive a text or email or direct chat from a FM and then I go down :(

Hen

Low contact often leads to no contact.

I would now stop all ways of them being able to contact you to zero by blocking all their means of communicating with you. The flying monkeys that have been sent in by your mother to do her bidding for her have no interest in hearing your side of things so they should be roundly ignored.

Toomuch "she used to go on and on about how liars were not to be trusted, while lying about bloody everything." Yes yes yes. The ultimate crime for us was to lie. One of the worst things to be called was deceitful. Ridiculous since everyone in the family leads secret lives and lies incessantly. It's so strange with narcissism, the level of cognitive dissonance is massive.

Lenl Yes, it does feel really nice doesn't it. Well until you realise later that it's not nice! It's one of my red flags now that I'm slipping back into my old role (and the accompanying shit from them) - that when I see them and immediately afterwards, I feel nice, warm, accepted, approved of. And then I realise why, and I realise that even when I'm in my role I'm still getting treated badly. It's so hard to come to terms with and so hard to not accidentally keep doing. By the way you don't sound at all stuck up or cruel, that's your conditioning speaking, not reality :)

Spare "compisult" is spot on! A recent one for me was "hey I like your top, it's sooo much better than all your other ones that are so badly-fitting and worn out". The really tragic thing is that she really got in my head with it, and I then proceeded to buy some new tops. Taking care to wear my best when I see her of course. It makes me feel pretty pathetic, I wish it didn't bother me, but that particular comment is in my head every day when I get dressed! Of course if I raised it, I'd be made to look like an idiot!

My M this week seems to be on one of her things where I am HILARIOUSLY STUPID. I spoke to her last night and very briefly today and I got at least 3 "jokes" about how ditzy/ stupid I am. I wasn't even doing anything ditzy, I was just being normal about making an arrangement. I wish wish wish I could just be stony-faced and then say something like "right." or "that's not funny" or something. Of course I don't, I just fume endlessly when I put the phone down.

M and D coming to visit tomorrow...

Somethingtosay I'm going to have a look at it, thank you :)

Chest good luck tomorrow! It's my birthday this weekend so am seeing M and Dsis tomorrow. Will be thinking of you

Ah happy birthday :) Hope you have a lovely weekend. Hope their visit is short :D

So much of what is being written on here is survivor talk. I'd like to give some feedback if I may.....

Most abusers never admit it. So conversation with them about what's happened and what IS happening, and trying to get them to admit it is pointless.

It's ok to cut contact. It's ok for them to know you are doing it and why. But you don't have to tell them if you don't want to. if they've hurt and abused you, you don't owe them anything.

Remaining in contact with those who abuse us is like breathing in asbestos....it makes us sick. The ruined days, the feeling shit about ourselves yet again, the upset and worry. If we are remaining in contact, we must be aware of this effect and on the lookout for it every time we have contact. If we are keeping that contact, then we need a plan because we are simply not safe to be ourselves with them. That plan needs to factor in our understanding of not being safe, how we plan to handle things that are said and done when we are with them, and some aftercare.....very important. How are we going to counter what we've just been through and feel better again?

Lastly, we need to remember that relating to the abusers and naysayers is only part of what we need to heal from this trauma. What else are you doing to counter balance these troublesome relationships? What effects has it had on you which need attention and care? You matter. What's going on IS wrong whether they admit it or not and you DONT have to lose your life to this.

I've been supporting survivors for years and I am one myself, fifteen years of complex child abuse and have cut off entire family to escape. My book is in the small biz section if you would like to have a peek at the fee bit and sense that sadly I know what I'm talking about xxx lovely weekends to all xxx

I'm in a cycle I recognise but seem unable to stop...
I'm starting to minimise stuff already!
I'm starting to think things like "all 70s parents hit their kids"
"No one's perfect"
"It wasn't that bad...i wasn't tied to a radiator and starved"

Except it really was that bad

My mother had 2 nervous breakdowns (which she now denies ever happened)
Except I nursed her through them...coming home from work to feed her or she didnt eat

She and my dad took every penny I ever earned off me
They encouraged me to go into debt on credit cards and loans...they had £1000s off me over the years

They supported my brother when he stole £500 (a lot of money back then!) From me before my wedding...sadly for him it was a joint account so my parents had to put the money back - I doubt that would have happened had it been my money alone!

God....so much shit over the years.

And she denies it ALL

She pits me against my siblings by lying - caught her out a few times.

What A mess

@something2say, thank you for sharing what you have. It makes a lot of sense. You’ve done really well to get away from your family.

It makes sense of why, although I’d repressed the memories at the time, I felt a deep sense of relief when my father died years ago. I’d actually been willing him to die when he was in hospital at the end, which horrified me. (I didn’t admit this even to myself for many years.) The guilt paralysed me afterwards for a while of course, I felt like a horrible person.

It’s tricky with my B as he was a victim as well as a perpetrator. And he doesn’t remember, or appear to remember, anything of what he did. Though it turns out he does remember an incident (not involving my father) that we previously reported to the police which at the time he claimed not to remember (and the CPS didn’t pursue it as a result).

There’s a good reason not to be in touch with him right now as the police are investigating again right now (we’ve reported everything now) and we would have to be very careful what we say. He also still idolises our abusive father and visits his grave when he can. (I would like to trash it but I won’t of course.)

That sounds so awful, Badders08, I’m so sorry you went through all that. My parents smacked us too, my M once caned my B, in fact, for not being able to do his Maths homework.

My mum claims to not remember anything and I absolutely believe there’s a lot she didn’t know. But she denies some things that she really did know. I do believe that her distress is genuine, but she looks for comfort from me and my DSis, which is inappropriate.

I'm sure had I been a child/teen now SS would have been involved.
I was always covered in bruises....asked about it once by my PE teacher. I lied. Obvs.

But..

But.....

Compared to what you went through it's not that bad, is it?

Badders08, what you went through was horrible as well. Being ‘covered in bruises’ was unacceptable even by 1970s standards.

Thank you 🌹

Comparisons of badness are of no use whatsoever.
It's another way to minimise, and we've been doing that all our lives.....

I'm just questioning myself as usual

Hopefully it'll pass

Randomer..check out the book "the child of ageing self absorbed parents"
You can get it on Amazon

It’s tricky with my B as he was a victim as well as a perpetrator.

All the perpetrators are former victims. That's how it works, that's how the abuse continues down the generations.

I get what you’re saying, too much too old, with my B, there’s also the fact that he’s also seriously mentally ill, which means that he’s never going to be able to face up to what he did.

It's a credit to you that you have so much compassion and understanding for him but you have to be careful not to throw yourself under a bus because of it. If he needs help, it shouldn't have to come from you.

It won’t be from me, I have no intention of helping him again, I can’t do it anymore, as I have to protect my DDs. What I meant is that I have to accept that he will never acknowledge what he did.

Apparently, while he was fading away in hospital, my father said to my DSis that he was sorry for what he put us through when we were children, but he never acknowledged it to me.

It's one of the really crazy-making things about all this, is that you hardly ever get validation, not even an acknowledgement that what happened happened, never mind an apology. You have to mourn the fact that you're never going to get that and then the desire for it will slowly go. But it sounds like you are totally on that.

I think we all mourn what we never had...in my case a loving mother.
My dad was very loving...all cuddles came from him. He was the one who read us stories at bedtime etc
I think my mother's childhood was pretty grim tbh...not excusing her behaviour but she left at 18 and never went back.
Sigh
I don't know
I know I'm just relieved to be out of it - but guilty my sister is now the POA