"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

For those of you who have went no contact how did you go about it? And did you tell them why?

Currently I'm low contact basically she collects my kids every few weeks (my kids adore her) and texts on a daily basis. I feel like a bitch picking and choosing what I reply to if its about the kids I'll answer, about me no.

She's pushing to spend time with me and I could not think of anything worse tbh. I'm running out of excuses. I can't have a phone conversation with her cause she is sleekit and goes out of her way to get a reaction so the thought of her doing it in person sends me into a panic attack.

I've just finished therapy, have accepted the fact that she will not/can't ever be the mother I need. I feel that having contact with her would just put me back to square one?

@toomuchtooold, you’re right. My DSis and I both decided that our DCs must have no contact with our brother. Quite apart from the past, he shouts at them and bumps into them and blames them. There was an incident when DD2 was 3 years old; she was using the potty (we potty trained her late) and she lifted her dress so I could help her clean up after a poo. My brother yelled at her not to expose herself. So, although a lot of this isn’t his fault, and there’s no evidence that he’s a danger to children as an adult (he was a boy when he did those things), it’s not healthy for our DCs at all.

My DM has our DCs for sleepovers but she’s under strict instructions not to have our brother around, which she has done in the past. She has taken care not to do that since the past memories came to the surface.

Yes I’ve been reluctant to block him, partly because of my DM, but also because he himself is very vulnerable. I mostly ignore the phone, and let him leave a message, then my DH calls him back. But it needs resolving, not least because DM is in her late 70s and it’s taking its tole on her.

I don't know
I'm "having a break" atm
No idea if this will turn into no contact
Very probably
I told her a few home truths yesterday which went down like a cup of cold sick

Codeee my mother very obligingly did something that ended up being my "straw that broke the camel's back" moment just after I moved house. I just dropped contact. I sent her a letter some time later after she sent some flying monkeys after me.
I don't know what to tell you really. I think it's hard to go NC if you want her to keep contact with your kids - a bit of a blunt question here but, if your mother has such a negative effect on you, why do you think she is going to be good for your children? Abusive people don't suddenly become nice because they are grandparents. You know her though.

Before I went NC I tended to say yes to a certain amount of contact basically because I didn't want to have a conversation about why I didn't want to have contact. So I am probably the worst example of how to manage these things! But I think it is a problem, people who've been abusive are hardly going to respect a request for less contact or more contact or different contact or any other boundary you try to enforce with them.

I believe you toomuch

Two sides to every story belongs in the bin along with the truth lays somewhere in the middle.

Mittens, your willingness to take on responsibility for others makes me think you might be interested in reading up about codependency. Codependency for dummies is really good.
Crap, I want to write more but I'm being told I need to run a race against DD2

Codee I didn’t know what ‘sleekit’ means but having looked it up it’s now my favourite word (especially to describe my M).

Not NC myself but I wouldn’t attempt to explain if you do it - she’d just use it against you.

I had the realisation today that nearly all of my most favourite fiction books, going right back to the teenage years, feature mind control or cult-type behaviour or mad parents. Anyone else similar? Obviously my subconscious mind was trying to tell me something long before my conscious brain had got a handle on things.

Currently having a bit of a wobble as M is doing her favourite trick of not ringing/silent treatment. This is I think in response to what she thinks is our failure to take account of her at Christmas. I am quite annoyed with myself because it is actually really NICE not to have her bothering me, but somehow I feel crap about it. I know it’s the FOG. I just wish I could make the FOG go away!

Fully agree with Nora’s take on two sides to every story btw. It’s usually code for ‘there are two sides to every story but my side is the right one’.

You’re right, too much, that sounds like a good idea. My DSis is similar in that way, she had the right idea, though, by moving right away.

My DM is the one who made us this way, she could definitely be described as ‘co-dependent’. But I try and make things better for her when we talk as well. Whenever we talk about the past she ends up crying on the phone and I find myself comforting her. When she visits she doesn’t want to talk about it with me because she doesn’t want me to spoil her time with the DGDs. My DSis feels particularly angry about that attitude.

Thanks, I will look up that book. It sounds like it will be helpful.

The odd thing is that I've known for some weeks/months that something was going on...
Her new kitchen was all planned then put on hold - she couldn't give me a reason why
She kept saying things like "I've got to stop spending" then buying brothers daughter yet more clothes/toys/craft stuff
Mum has been so weird with me well weirder and I knew that I needed proof she was lying
I knew
I just needed proof
And now I have it
Mum said the figure I was quoted by bank was wrong
I told her she needed to clarify whats been taken out of her account...apparently bank were phoning her yesterday afternoon
Phoned my sister last night...sister knows nothing about it 🤔
So maybe even that was a lie
Fuck knows
My brother has form...hope it's not him

toomuch
There's been so much straws this past year that I've threw my hands up and went I can't do this anymore - then comes the family drama that I get dragged back into leaving me back at square one.
My dc adore her as she plays the doting Facebook grand parent. They are too young to realize it's just a show, so feel like I'm hurting them? I can't tell a toddler and 6 year old just how bad she is?

Hopefully moving cities next year which should make it easier.

I'm not allowed any boundraies, it's taking me to my 30s to realize that I'm allowed to say no to anyone. I've always been told I'm angry, being difficult, awkward etc. when I've tried to enforce any. So it would have to be drastic i.e. change my number.
Actually feel mental and guilty even writing this.

Spare
it's a typical Scottish word but fits so well. Her behavior is covert, and when you call her out on it she puts on a face of disbelief and innocence. Hence sleekit.

Yeah I think she would do the same or tell me why I am wrong.
There's a thread on here just now from a dm I'm presuming that could have been written by my dm, despite having told her repeatedly why and what's wrong she refuses to acknowledge it or then tries to gaslight me into believing that's not how it happened. I feel half the time like I've lived a total different life to what she says.

Also agree on the two sides - there's usually the truth and the how do I make myself not look bad side.

Thanks for your replies.

I haven't done anything yet, deep down I know she won't do anything, but another part of me wants proof so I can make that final decision to go no contact. I almost want to poke the wasp nest 😳.

Spare, it is amazing isn't that been punished and treated badly by someone we care for makes us feel guilty! If you twisted it around were you in her mind when booked her holiday? Can you imagine making your child responsible in similar circumstances? Projecting a bit there

I found the gransnet stuff quite interesting but it made me feel unsettled. I was reading the posts of one women who kept referring to proof that she was a good mother, as she had loving Mother's Day cards for her daughter. I just thought of all the times I picked up cards with lovely poems because I knew she loved that stuff, but I never bought them as a representation of how I felt.

Lenl I absolutely get what you mean about the "spell". I have that too. The last visit I thought was amazing and it took me a few days to realise that it wasn't! It's so frustrating because it means that I'm often not able to be assertive or stand up for myself in the moment, because I don't even realises there was anything wrong until ages later. And then it's too late to respond to. By the way for what it's worth, I don't think it's even remotely ok that your mum is getting stoned, drunk, or anything else before she sees her gc. You're doing great :)

Toomuch How are you doing now?

Mittens I just wanted to say I get it. Really tough. And I wanted to say to stand your ground about not letting him have contact with your children. What if you went NC? I feel like I want to say that you're not responsible for the effect on your M - that's for her to feel and deal with - but I know I don't know the whole story. If that's not an option, what about getting a cheap phone or a different sim card, telling him that's your new number, and then you could turn it off and just switch it on every few days to check for any messages - that way there's no chance of your dc picking up?

Thanks Nora, Chest, for your kind words - it was actually really interesting to have a flashback like that when it was so clear what it was. I could totally sort of study it.

Mittens that sounds like an ideal training for codependency. I guess it was like that when you were a kid as well? The kids responsible for the adults' feelings.

Codeee my mother was the same with my kids... well, one of them, the other one who looks like me was already becoming the target of her barbed comments and stuff. I would just say, don't feel like you have to discount your own knowledge of her when you're deciding what to do.
I had it easier because we live abroad so my mother was only there now and again, there wasn't an expectation from the kids that they would see her very often. But they did eventually ask, and I did tell them a bit about why we don't see her - I said there's something wrong with her basically, a kind of illness, and she's not safe to be around.
Sleekit's a good word. Ironically it was one of my mother's favourite insults - and she used to go on and on about how liars were not to be trusted, while lying about bloody everything. And I don't think she felt any discomfort about that. It really is a mental illness.

toomuch I didn't see it that way before but you're totally right and it is cool!

Mittens I do that too, and up comforting M. It happened in our latest meeting. I find I'm doing everything I can to dampen and soften anything I say to her whilst she 'says it like it is' under the guise of helping me. Lately I haven't softened things hence the accusation now that I'm condescending. I don't know how to stop. I feel so sorry for her when she cries - is it the same for you?

Spare I find the same, I don't hear from her nearly as much as I feel put out despite the fact it's much easier that way. It's annoying. DP keeps trying to remind me the FOG is a lifetime of conditioning and that we can't expect to just snap out of it.

Chest exactly the same here. I don't stick up for myself or anything and I don't even think to because it feels like we're back to normal and that feels nice even though of course should be an alarm bell that I'm slipping into an old role. It's so frustrating because I get home and think about it and feel full of now totally impotent anger that I can't do anything with. I write long messages outlining exactly what the problem is but never send them. I think the way to try and look at it is each occasion of this is a learning experience and I do take something out of it each time. I certainly notice sooner each time so hopefully eventually I'll notice it in the bloody moment!

I've responded to everyone with a "me too" which feels a bit lame but also pretty wild that everyone's experiences, while the details differ, are ultimately very similar. It's kind of shocking really that such a pernicious pattern of behaviour can be so widespread.

My Dsis is only 19 and has a lot of mental health issues. M was saying that Dsis thinks I don't like her and that I think shes stupid. I honestly can't think of anything I could have done to suggest that other than had kids and worked full time and not had the same time as I used to for her. But I'm aware I'm getting this through M which seems possibly a bit of a triangulation thing. Talking about it to Dsis is hard as everything goes back to M so I have to be careful. Dsis never reaches out to me despite according to M just wanting to spend time with me, and much like M if I say anything that can be perceived as critical she gets angry with me. Eg when they moved recently they threw a lot of stuff away but kept a mouldy rotting plastic garden bench and put it in their new garden. I kinda laughed and said how come you guys kept that and my sister shouted that I always have a go at them and stormed indoors. It was a totally lighthearted comment. And yet Dsis to M is the poor victim. After seeing M I wonder exactly what she says to Dsis. I think she perpetuates the 'Lenl is horrible' narrative and gets them both "hyped up" as DP put it. I feel sorry for Dsis and want to be there for her but that means being involved in the whole sorry drama with them both.

I found a word yesterday on one of those narcissistic parents websites for that thing they do where they disguise an insult as a compliment and you don’t realise until afterwards. They called it a complisult.

My mother has never complimented me
Ever
Even on my wedding day she couldnt summon up a "you look nice"
I had a few things here I had borrowed from mum - a blender and a couple of toys - asked my sister to drop them off yesterday so that's done
"Poke the wasps nest"
Yes
Exactly
That's what I've done
I needed proof and now I have it

I’ve just caught up on the thread. So sorry people are struggling with the crap our mothers come out with.

I can’t remember who was contemplating sending a letter - don’t bother, it will fan the flames and cause all kinds of angst to you when your M loses the plot and denies it all.

I need to learn how to be better at grey rock. As I’ve now accepted the relationship is toxic, I’ve stopped caring about how I come across.

I’ve been responding fairly angrily to M and flying monkeys. M is clearly enjoying the drama and is talking to most of the extended family and painting me as some kind if evil queen!

M still threatening to go to the courts for access. I’m now ignoring it. I’ll deal with it if she actually does, but I doubt she’s really that interested in the kids, it’s more about getting me back under her control.

Although there is a risk she would see it through just to score points and put me in my place.

Hugs to everyone, I’m sorry M’s are behaving the way they are!

Xx

I won't hear from mum now
She very angry at me
Unless there is an emergency of course then I suppose I will get sucked back in

Haha M is great with complisults!

Her favourite at the moment is to say "I can see you've lost weight - just that tummy to lose now"... she's been saying how I have a bit of a tummy since I was a (not fat) child. Her other one currently is "the house looks nice lately I've noticed, because, well you know, it doesn't always".

I'm so used to it I've only noticed lately that Mil will just say "you look nice" and that's it. Turns it compliments can just be compliments!

Lenl, my M is also into giving compliments like that. She’ll say, ‘if I don’t tell you this who will?’ I refuse to let her help me buy clothes anymore, I always end up with my self esteem taking a battering as she helps me to find clothes that ‘flatter’ me and ‘hide my tummy’. She also thinks she has the right to come into the changing rooms to help me with trying on the clothes. ‘There’s nothing I haven’t seen before.’ Etc.

No, she didn’t turn on the ‘waterworks’ when I was a child, she was actually very remote and busy with work. She wasn’t tactile at all, but then I pushed her away because I couldn’t cope with physical displays of affection. My father used to emotionally blackmail though, and M would tell me off for ‘hurting’ him when I refused to let him touch me or sit next to him. She never wondered why!! He would warn us against upsetting her though, so that we wouldn’t tell her what he was doing to us.

M is very codependent herself though. She takes on all our ‘problem solving’ and if we let her would do anything. If we’re ill in any way, she smothers us as if we were children. With my B, this has created a learned helplessness, and she solves every problem that he has. This has made him totally incapable of working things out like an adult. Then she becomes frustrated with him because he can’t do it himself.

She is damaged herself; she was orphaned at 10, and was then brought up by an aunt and uncle; she’s told us that she was subjected to SA at the hands of her uncle. She should have therapy but I she’s always refused when DSis and I have suggested it. (She used to hate the idea of us talking to counsellors about our issues when we were growing up.)

She did agree to sort out a guardian for my B, and to put his financial affairs in order, but even if she does, he’ll still keep panicking and calling when he runs out of money. His benefits have been cut because his application for PIP has been turned down, but whatever money he gets he can’t manage, because he spends it on alcohol.

M has always guilt tripped DSis and me by saying our B is jealous of the fact that we’ve got our lives sorted. She knows more about how damaged we are (PTSD for me), but she still trots out that line.

Sorry, that was such a long post! But it really is very complicated. My DH is becoming totally fed up as well. The reason B called was because he needed £20 for his train fare m and he couldn’t get hold of M. (The line was busy.) DH said, he shouldn’t go on the train so much if he can’t afford it! He has a point.

Hello all,
I'm a survivor of childhood trauma too, but I'm well out of it now and I cut contact years and years ago.

I've paid to advertise a self help book I've written in the small biz pages on here.....I worked for years as a front line charity worker helping people flee abuse....and this thread is so relevant to the work I do. If you think it might help you, pop across to the small biz page and have a look at the free bit of the book that Amazon lets you see.....

Not sure if this post will be deleted or if I'm breaking rules but my book deals with family abuse and would be very useful to some going by some of what you're going through. Since I was abused by my mother and abuse within families is so common and so difficult to handle, there is a HUGE section on how to deal with it, including should I tell them why I want to cut contact, what happens when they know, safety planning....and the crux of it all, the fact that simply KNOWING we don't have that close reliable family is what is hard. Changing the facts after that is easy but coming to terms with that reality is what is hard.

I keep an eye on this thread and will you all well xxx

Mittens your post is very interesting and rang a lot of bells, though I've never experienced SA. I'm so sorry that happened to you (and others on here I should think).

My M too had a difficult childhood, emotionally and physically abused by her F and sexually abused by someone outside the family. She also suffered a life changing accident in her early twenties. I feel for her as she's had it so hard, I really do - I think that's why I find it so difficult to stand up for myself because I know (in great detail which is perhaps another issue) why she is the way she is. I do feel she uses her trauma as a reason no one can question her though. Although that makes me sound as cruel and stuck up as she thinks I am. Maybe I am. My M is also very involved in times of difficulty etc. I think she finds helping and fixing makes her most comfortable and when I'm ok and settled she finds that hardest.

She also I think infantalises Dsis as much as she parentified me. It's because she feels bad for becoming a heroin addict when Dsis was young. Did you give your B the money he asked for?

No we didn’t, M already had it in hand, the money was supposed to come into his account that morning, he rang us in a panic because it wasn’t in his account yet. But it was before 9am so of course it wasn’t there yet! M keeps him on a very short leesh, makes sure he gets the money the day he needs it. He’s just so helpless, will use childish language like ‘I’m a big boy now, don’t tell me what to do.’

He’s also totally self-absorbed; he didn’t take any notice of the fact that we were stressed with getting the DDs to school and DH off to work. He just can’t organise anything for himself. (He’s 50.)

Lenl, your story does sound similar, although in my case my M is more controlling than helpless, though she is very emotionally needy. It sounds like their childhoods were similar though.