"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks Mittens and thanks Toomuch, those are very reassuring msgs and I feel a whole lot better typing my heart out to you all. I feel like its my first step to healing. You're right I shouldn't have to listen to anyone after everything I've been through I should be able to separate right and wrong and shield my children from danger.

Startsearching. I think the letter you wrote in very reasonable. But be prepared (if your mom is like mine) for the worst. Most toxic people hates to be confronted with the truth and with my mom she would twist and turn everything to make me look like the crazy one. Your mother will probably tell everyone something else about what you wrote in that letter and change everyword to make more people think you're the bad one. Of course I'm imagining what I mother would have done so I'm not sure how bad your mother is. I hope it all goes well for you.

ChocolatePHD, I've only just read your thread now about your therapist telling you to stand strong and face your mother. No! Tell your therapist why should you have to build up your strength and then get mentally weakened again? If this helps I went tot the Mental Health group talk today and there was this old lady who said she forgave her nasty mother and went back because she understood it wasn't her fault and that it was her upbringing. My therapist said 'forgiving doesn't mean you should keep going back into whats hurting you......you'll fall back into a vicious circle again and again and its mentally damaging to you.' She said 'what us abused adults tend to do is seek opinions, confirmation and approval of others but yet the fact is there! We lived through it we know what pain we endured and not many people know how painful it is except you so only you can make that decision no one else.' In other words her opinion shouldn't influence everyone else to forgive their abusers and go back becuase they feel sorry for them or think its not heir fault. Sorry if I'm rambling on but I hope this helps. I was in a bad state but going to this group talk today lifted me and made me feel better so I thought I'd share it with everyone. Lets heal together and reach for happiness! xx

Hello
Was here in 2012 after an awful Xmas with my parents left me in no doubt of my non status within the family
Dad died in summer 2013 and mums lies and hero worship of my brother has reached epic proportions
I found out yesterday she has given my brother nearly £10k as a house deposit
After denying all knowledge twice to my face

Her money but it's the lying I can't stand
I've told her I'm no longer willing to act as POA and im taking a break to concentrate on me and my family
It's so fucked up

starsearching I think your letter is perfectly reasonable but there's a lot of plausibly deniable stuff in there and my prediction is that your mother will just love feeding off the drama. She can show it to people including all the people mentioned, claim to have been misunderstood, play the martyr, like mummyjen said she'll try to make you out as crazy and imagining things. And because she loves all this shit and is trying to do your head in, and because you're trying to communicate honestly, you'll probably find that she does a very good job of making other people take this as evidence of your craziness. And it lets her know you care. If you want to try, if you want to satisfy yourself that she really doesn't want to know what is wrong in your relationship, then fair enough, send it on. But I don't think it will make her change her attitude to you or anything like that. IME people like this know fine (on some level) what they are doing and they are only interested in making themselves look good.

Bladders that deserves a place in the top 10 shitty presents from toxic parents. I think Attila has a fair number of spots on that list...

They were quite useful tbh 😁

Jesus, I could write a book!

Just discovered you can give up a lasting PoA after reading your post Badders. I didn’t think you were allowed to, so thank you - I found a form online that you fill in and send to the right people. (LC with M at the moment and totally prepared (with gritted teeth) to do what’s necessary in time, but good to know if she kicks off at any point and things deteriorate and I end up NC - it had been worrying me a bit.)

You're welcome 😁
I saw those pages but tbh I'm happy for sister to organise a.d for me to just sign on the dotted line (Solicitor appt made already!)
Ugh
I feel horrid
I hate this

Starsearching

I would not send that letter; it will be taken very badly by your mother and toxic people like nothing more than a) a fight and b) the last word. Sending anything, no matter how nicely or carefully worded, will be seen by her as an attack and she will behave accordingly.

Badders

Yes, give up the P of A. Such documents anyway are a complete PITA. I advised DH not to sign one for his toxic mother, he did anyway the fool and I sincerely hope it is never invoked.

Even one of the judges who was a major part of the Court of Protection for 20 years would not sign one now!. They can be really that problematic (as well as trying to get bank staff to understand such a document also)

Your "gifts" from your mother seem to be matched only by the tat (all given to charity shop) my MIL has dumped on me over the years. These are unwanted Christmas and birthday and yet they still come despite me putting down a clear boundary saying no gifts thank you. She will then approach my all together soft hearted DH to ask me so the whole charade is again repeated via him.

I'm starting to doubt myself which worries me....
I know what she has said and done over the years. My sister can also vouch for some of it.
But she denies it all.
How can one deal with such a person? The answer seems to be I can't:(

Denial and toxic behaviours go hand in hand. It is not possible to reason with someone toxic like your mother so do not bother or engage with them at all.

What a mess
I've just blocked her number
I've also made it clear I won't be in touch for a while
Tbh she's so mad at me atm for yet again calling her out on a lie that she's prob glad

Sorry not caught up with thread yet but will.

Just an update - M accepted following her massive shouting rage at me that yes, she shouldn't drive my DC after she has had a drink and she accepts responsibility and is sorry she put me in that position. I was gobsmacked to be honest.

Then we met up in person today and it's the weirdest thing. It felt like a great conversation and that we really resolved things. After I left I realised far from feeling better I felt tense and on edge. So I sat and let myself feel my feelings, trying to let them wash over me, and name them, but without analysing (I'm currently reading Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach so this idea is from that). I realised I felt hurt, stung, ashamed and also that I was very aware of my body, the word that came to mind was 'hulking'. I felt enormous discomfort in my own skin. I thought back to our conversation...

She wanted to point out that problem she has been having, she feels I've become very condescending and that I think I am better that her and Dsis. She says this started when I became a social worker 4 years ago (a job I am proud of and worked hard to qualify for after dropping out of school when depressed as a teen). I said I had felt this sense from her that she thought I acted all middle class and too big for my boots, which I meant lightheartedly and as a caricature type thing. I guess I thought she'd say "oh no I wouldn't go that far" but she said said yep, that's about it.

She then gave as an example of my condescending behaviour the following: A few weeks ago she came round stinking of weed. It was about 1pm on a Sunday, the plan was to take DCs to the park together. She realised and asked if I could smell it, I said yes. She said she had bought some but people were smoking it there. I asked if she also smoked some and she said yes. I said "that's quite teenager-y, a smoke on a Sunday lunchtime'. She explained she was "absolutely livid" and wanted to tell me to "fuck off" but didn't as my DCs were there. Now I can see it was a catty comment and I should have said what I meant, that's I'd rather she didn't come and see us smelling so strongly of drugs. I get that. But the way she recounted it I was horrible unreasonable and also started confrontation in front of my DCs and it was only thwarted by her good grace. She starts stuff in front of them all the time.

The thing is when it's happening it feels like she's just helping me grow and be a better person. I can't explain it it's like as I get physical distance from her a mist clears and I see what's she's doing. The condescending thing isn't new, except when I was little she would say I was clingy, controlling or needy. She would compare me to Saffie from Ab Fab.

She also claimed she couldn't remember the time I confronted her about her drinking and she cried and apologised. She said that arguing over whether she drank with them once (as she said) or multiple times (which I was saying) was just semantics. She also minimised it as a past behaviour that absolutely wasn't happening now.
While drinking a beer (we met a foodie pub for lunch)

There were so many other off things I couldn't see at the time but this is already far too long, sorry. I just don't get it, it's like I'm under a spell when I'm with her. I feel so pleased to be getting along, do all I can to bolster her and make her feel ok, and nod apologetically to her stating my faults. It's bizarre.

And it gets under my skin. I'm worried I am condescending. It's my biggest worry at work too. Fuck.

Len...i sympathise

Just to add I don't particularly have a problem with weed smoking per se. More her smoking it (along with her painkillers etc) and being obviously stoned round DCs. I think I'm a bit sensitive as she would get totally wasted with me around when so I was a child.

I said to her today what she does is only my business when she is with my kids. Probably that will somehow be condescending and superior.

@Lenl, don’t let your M get to you. You’re not condescending, she just clearly isn’t used to you standing up to her and doesn’t like it. You’ve done so well to train as a social worker, you really mustn’t doubt yourself.

It’s entirely right that you should be concerned about your DCs being exposed to your mum’s weed, so you really shouldn’t feel that you need to justify your concern to her.

Thank you both. I'm laying in bed getting myself wound up. I want to text her and say haha it's funny I was just thinking in my childhood you called me clingy and controlling (and neurotic and over sensitive) and now it's condescending and superior, I wonder what it'll be in another 20 years?

Heartless and cold probably.

I try never to act when angry and wish I could calm down about it!

So glad I found this thread! Eldest of four. Parents started fostering when I was 6 and my brother 4. Young babies who took up all their time and energy and gradually we were pushed to one side. This escalated when my sister was born and furthermore when my youngest brother was born (large age gap)

No support whatsoever in my teenage years. I was quite academic but not allowed to stay at school for A levels as my parents wouldn't support me financially (or emotionally while they had foster babies) so got good friends, a good job and moved out asap. The brother closest to me in age holds down a good job but socially is a recluse so it has had an effect on him too. Parents can't do enough for my sister and youngest brother.

Nothing I or my children have done has ever initiated any degree of interest or proud moments for my parents. I find myself elaborating on things the children have achieved and inviting them to school plays/sports days etc in an effort to provoke some sort of reaction. But nothing. Makes me so sad when I witness the enthusiasm of other grandparents.

Youngest brother very lazy and couldn't be bothered to work after he left school for some years. Doted on by my mum and now he has moved some distance away because he couldn't afford to stay in the area (he works now).

My parents definitely favour him. My mum actually said once 'I am proud of all my children, especially Dbro". Backhanded compliment indeed.

We always get together for family birthdays and generally he will travel up for this. But I have a big birthday coming up and he has decided after the invite to go away with friends instead.

We usually take turns to host but nobody has offered to host mine and my brother can't be bothered to go anyway and it just feels like one rejection after another.

Suffered with low self esteem all my life due to my parents and now nobody can be bothered about my big birthday I am wondering why I should bother with any of them.

But we did get taken to stately homes!

Thoughts please as feel like divorcing my parents and siblings right now if I could. Thank you for reading.

Lenl I don’t think your comment about her smoking weed was catty at all. Going to pick up and then smoking weed before seeing your grandchildren? I know weed is the more acceptable face of drug-taking and it’s widely used, but it’s still a class B for a reason.

I think you’re doing great with the feelings washing over you thing. Personally I have found that to be the single most useful technique I have learned. I used to feel so much unease around my M that I could not put my finger on and because I couldn’t, I used to turn it into guilt. Now I am much better at getting to the bottom of things.

Know what you mean about the ‘spell’ too.

There is something I want to share about my situation. My brother as I have said has been seriously damaged by the past. What I didn’t say is that he also abused my DSis and me. He was only copying the behaviour of my father but nevertheless the memories are still there.

I’ve basically gone virtually NC with him and don’t want him around my DDs. Trouble is, he calls us for help with money, when he can’t get hold of my DM. This morning he called while I was in the bathroom and DD2 (5) answered, which freaked me out.

It’s depressing really. I don’t see how we’re going to get away from this, as he will continue to call us when he can’t get hold of DM. My DH speaks to him, thankfully. But it’s not something that can go on really, especially as DM is in her late 70s and isn’t coping well with this now.

Mittens is there a reason why you wouldn't just block his phone number? Is it because you don't want it blowing back on your mum? IMO this situation isn't one you should be dealing with at all, in fact I would say you have a responsibility to keep your children away from him. Imagine he wasn't a relative, and you knew what he'd done. You'd feel 100% justified in making sure there was no way he could have contact to your kids.

I'm having a fairly massive CPTSD flashback right now. I'm feeling terrified, actually shaking. I was reading another thread on relationships on here about Gransnet and there's loads of people going "two sides to every story" and I'm flashing back to not being believed, as a small child, when I tried to tell people what my mum was like. My dad, our next door neighbour, people I loved and trusted, but they always said that my mum was just a bit highly strung and that she wanted the best for me. I'm trying to tell that little kid that they were wrong, that they never saw what she was like alone with me, and that "what was best for me" was maybe 50% of the time what I actually wanted in my little heart, because it was fine, I wasn't asking for the moon, there was nothing wrong with me wanting to do the things I wanted to do - and that even in the times when I'd got it wrong, she rarely had my best interests at heart - she just wanted me to shut up and look pretty and be a credit to her, and anything else about "my interests" she didn't care about. I'm trying to tell her, she's believed now by the only person that matters - me/herself - and that if people on the internet have feelings about this, that's nothing to do with her, and nothing to do with me. I want to tell my teenage self, no, you're not a drama queen - no, this isn't normal - no, people who love you don't act like this. I want to tell myself in my 20s, there's nothing wrong with fucking hating her. You don't have to start with a clean sheet, you don't have to always give her the benefit of the doubt. I want to tell her, she was hateful before you ever hated her, and she didn't deserve half the consideration you gave her. I want to say this and give a massive big FUCK YOU to all the people who ever equivocated and said, there's two sides to every story and who wished to see bad in me when I've tried really fucking hard my whole life to be a good person. They can all fuck off. We are fucking OK. We are not taking any shit from anyone.

Right. Just had to get that off my chest.

Lenl your mindfulness of your feelings is really awesome. Pete Walker, the CPTSD guy, also writes about doing that. You're getting in touch with your inner child, and she's keeping you right. It's so cool.

Been re reading toxic parents
"Just because you can't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen"
And repeat.....