"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Sunflower that doesn't sound good at all. One of the most positive aspects for me is that she is NOT making me feel like a drama queen. Having had my parents minimise /ignore my emotions and needs for so long I feel bad for expressing them. To then have them minimised by him could be hugely damaging I would have thought??
They're not meant express their opinions are they, certainly not so early on?

Or put more directly. How the fuck can he get any 'impression' of what you might be feeling?? I'd run a mile.

Thank you fc301.

I have been seeing a CPN since the GP's referral to the Crisis Team back in April and I felt so much more comfortable around her from the beginning.

Unfortunately she will stop seeing me soon as I have now been taken on by that other therapist.

Cross post.

I so know what you mean about your feelings being minimised and ignored!

And yes, when he said that it didn't make me feel very good.

I feel like I have taken a huge step backwards...I am crying all the time and I have virtually no appetite.

I am supposed to go and see him again on Monday but I really don't want to.

Flump I have wondered the same thing. I feel very little for my mother. For years I didn't know this was strange. I don't think we ever bonded properly (she's 'emotionally absent' and my D took everything she had).

Cake I have sworn I will waste no more time trying to persuade my own parents that I am actually a good person!

Oh gawd sunflower could you do one more session? Be completely honest and ask him if there are other options.
Attila will be able to advise better than me.
Hang in there. Whilst you feel dreadful remember that this might be a peak on your road to wellness, rather than lasting misery.
💐💐💐

Also shout out to everyone who feels they should make less fuss as 'it's nothing compared to what others go through'.

Thank you fc

I am so tired of feeling like this.

Hi everyone, not posted for awhile but that's mainly because my parents have been on holiday for a month! I didn't realise I had an issue with them just being around but I started feeling very anxious just before they came back and it's spiralled since. I went out with them and dsis last night, I literally had to keep sis between parents and myself as I could not bear them near me! I hadn't realised I felt that strongly.
Sunflower about your therapist, if there's no connection I wouldn't go back, find a different one. I was having therapy and although she wasn't anything like as bad as yours sounds, we weren't on the same wavelength. She kept giving me practical suggestions for what I ought to do differently. I already know what I SHOULD do, I just feel incapable of doing it in practice. No amout of being told What you ought to do helps if you just don't have the skills to do it. It's like telling someone that the best way to communicate with a French person is to speak French when you've never heard any French before and only got increasingly nasty consequences on your many clumsy attempts at the language.
I wasted money persevering with that therapist, I have an appointment with another one booked And I'm hoping for better results there. Rapport is important.

hi everyone. been reading all your updates and good god how strong is everyone to be dealing with these parents!

i wanted to say thank you so much for the wise words and support. i’ve found an al anon meeting in my area - this is no mean feat as i live in a muslim country! i’m going on the 16th - wish me luck.

no idea what to expect and a bit nervous if i’m honest. but feel i have nothing to lose by going and actually by addressing this and acknowledging it happened, i am already making positive progress.

sadly no chance of me cancelling the parents visit in november, but i already feel stronger from this process and knowing i have a meting in the diary.

sending strength to anyone who is minimising their own feelings and experiences.

Spare I think I've been looking to get the love that I needed as a child from doing well at work. I think from quite an early age I copped on that I would get no love from my mother and school filled the gap, and then work, but only in the moment - I derived my self worth from praise, from doing a good job that day - but it didn't stick the way early parental love would.

I find that when I start to think about this stuff, my internal critic goes into overdrive. I feel guilty and wrong for not feeling happy, like it would be a personal failure. And I feel a great sense of urgency to do something about it - flight response. Which has never served me well, but in my current situation it's just not possible to make big or sudden changes and to be honest a lot of options are currently barred for me - we're abroad, so anything that relies on a good grasp of the language is difficult, and the kids are mornings only in kindergarten, so there are restrictions. There are some big international firms in the area who use English but then it's back to 50 hours a week workaholism, even if they would take me on (I changed career shortly before we left the UK, and I don't have any formal qualifications in the job I was most recently doing - and the one before that is in terminal decline in Europe. Truly this was a move made in hell for me, and we seriously considered living apart, but with two year old twins I wasn't willing either to split them from their dad or to be effectively a single mum - I wouldn't have managed). The only jobs I'm currently qualified for that I could do near here are minimum wage type stuff and arrogant as I know this sounds, I don't think they would give me any boost to my self esteem. It's like, I've got no career, I might as well have left school at 16 for all the good my qualifications and experience are now, but I can't quite let myself realize that. I've not hit rock bottom yet.

Sorry, that was all a bit grim wasn't it? It's just good to be able to get it off my chest somewhere where I know people are going to understand the complicating factors.

Sunflower

((((((((((((((((sunflowers)))))))))))))))

Am sorry to read that you were feeling so bad yesterday; how are you feeling today?

I would continue to see the people you feel the most comfortable with. With regards to this other therapist bod remember that these people are like shoes; they need to fit in with your approach otherwise it doesn't work. How much experience does this man have regarding narcissistic family structures as well; that is a question I would be asking him outright. I would also suggest you talk to more than one therapist as well before seeing that person for a series of appointments; speak to them as if you were going to a job interview.

toomuch I can’t help thinking that if you were able to plunge straight back into a career right now, you might end up repeating the patterns of the past where your job kind of filled the place where your M should have been. It would work short-term but you might end up storing up problems for the future. Would you be able to look at this hiatus time that has been imposed on you as an opportunity to explore how your M affected your attitude to work and try to heal some of that, so that when the right opportunity does present itself, you have a more balanced attitude to it? It does sound as though you have had the insight already, and ‘just’ need to do the work with your emotions.

In the meantime, is there any other, non-work way you can grab some ‘me’ experiences (outside of being a M)? (I know that we children of narcs are not very good at doing that though!)

In my own case I know that if I changed direction I’d have to go back to much lower pay and work my way up. I’m part-time at the moment, with good holidays, so do I swap that for a full-time job with less time off in order to try to find a better fit for who I really am? It seems such a risk, when I’m just going on theories of what I’d like and don’t have any practical experience of anything else to guide me.

The irony is that the job I’m currently doing, whilst not really ‘me’, has taught me a lot about human nature, and somehow this has meant that I have been subconsciously been keeping my distance from my M for many years, though without knowing why until recently. So I do have a certain amount to thank it for.

One further thought - I’ve read some of your blog. If writing wasn’t your previous career, have you thought of pursuing that?

Yes that's what worries me spare - and also one day when I retire, I want to be able to enjoy it! Of course it'll be different then, all my peers will be old too and I might not have quite such bad FOMO. But I suspect it'll still be an issue.

I am really mourning hard the choices I made over the last 10 years. Like a proper codependent, I put other people first in every decision without really realising that I was doing it. My life would look very very different right now if I'd realised what was up with my mother say 10 years ago, and read around codependency and CPTSD and all the rest of it. Even to have realised it when I was in my last job, just to have had the chance to interact with people knowing how the dynamics of it all work.

It's funny you should mention the writing because I have about 40,000 words of a novel sitting on my computer right now. It's slow going but I hope to finish it in the next 6 months or so. It's something I really wanted to do for a long while but it feels like a bit of an uphill struggle when I'm working away on my own. At least there's no expectations, I've not chucked a brilliant job to do this or anything, that does make it easier.

I'm catching up with the thread at the moment so will post more later.

Just a quick one really. Had a phone call with M this evening who told me all sorts of gossip about one of my siblings and their partner. Was very scathing of the partner. Without giving details, the partner is in a really difficult situation at the moment and my heart really goes out to them. They seem to have emotional abuse from all sides. I want to say something to her but I'm also obviously very wary of getting involved. I also feel quite angry at the shit my M was spouting and complicit for hearing it. The problem is that my siblings don't really speak to me any more so I don't find out how they're doing unless I get it through M and her filter.

I'm also struggling generally anyway, just with everything really. I'm a survivor of a hell of a lot of abuse and it's all in my head right now and it's hard.

On the plus side, my siblings seem to be providing plenty of drama and narc supply, so M is being quite warm/ neutral to me at the moment. Which then adds on self-doubt on top of everything!!!

Just needed to vent a little bit, the phone call has brought on an awful migraine.

for everyone

Chest My mum is a huge gossip, although I didn't realise this for years because she doesn't do it in an obviously gossiping way. It's more like she confides in me, so although she's gossiping about other people the way she did it made me feel special and close to her.

It's all bullshit though. I'm convinced mine does it to try and draw me in. I too have no direct contact with any of these family members so everything goes through her. If I want to know how someone is doing I have to ask her, the keeper of knowledge, and she'll decide if I'm worthy of any breadcrumbs.

Definitely in my M's case, she gets a good top up of narc supply from me when she tells me this stuff. It puts her centre stage and gets off on my reaction no matter how I react, because she's being the puppet master and I'm her puppet. She always looks very smug and pleased with herself, I always feel shit.

I think the only thing that helps is when I picture her as a six year old child gossiping made up nonsense in the playground, it's only then I can begin to see it for what it is.

Lol Nora are you sure you're not my long lost sister?!! Describes my M perfectly. It's infuriating isn't it. And like you it always used to make me feel so special and confided in. I wonder what she says about me!

I keep discovering more layers of why what she said is so offensive and horrible, and I'm just feeling so wildly angry about it all. And I'm winding myself about wishing I had said this thing or that thing. I seem to go so crap when I actually speak to her, however much I plan responses. I did make one or two remarks though that I am pleased with so that's good I suppose. It's just going round and round my head.

I'm also feeling really sorry for myself that she just doesn't properly see me or really care about me or how I am doing. The call yesterday just really rubbed that in.

Sorry for dumping, I will come back later and be a bit more positive hopefully!

No need to be sorry, there's nothing wrong with being human, and it's true about being better out than in and all that.

There must be something in the air generally, pretty much everyone I speak to is either dog tired or fed up about one thing or another, everyone seems like a coiled spring.

Hope you feel better soon.

Nora and Chest you are describing my M to a T! She just loves to judge other people, whilst simultaneously being totally oblivious to her own very major shortcomings.

It dawned on me after I last spoke to her that a lot of her judgy pronouncements on other people are actually coded messages to me about how she expects me to behave. That’s how she’s subtly tried to mould me to behave the way that suits her over the years. I’m actually pretty annoyed with myself that I was taken in for so long, and needlessly felt guilty about stuff.

Also, my M doesn’t always lie outright (though she has been known to) but by cross-checking with DSis I’ve discovered that she’s very good at judicially omitting certain facts or exaggerating others in order to make different people think different things. So I never assume she’s telling the truth any more. Just coping with that knowledge when you’re talking to her is stressful.

Sorry you are feeling crap, Chest. I know how you feel about the realisation being overwhelming sometimes. I keep thinking I’ve worked out the worst of it, and then there still seems to be more. It’s like a line of dominoes tumbling.

Spare yes yes, mine does coded messages too. But the funny thing is, the last one she tried I didn't notice and I went totally against the grain.

She'd been on and on about her sister, her sister also has a daughter similar age to me, and her daughter has kids who my mum's sister occasionally looked after, same as what my M did with mine. Basically our families mirror. Anyhow, she was banging on and on about how her sister is really very annoyed because her daughter doesn't make much effort to see her these day, she's always busy, she buys her shit cheap gifts at Christmas, birthdays etc and she's not seen her grandkids for ages. The crux of the issue was that her sister is particularly annoyed because when the kids were little she would buy them tins of macaroni cheese (coincidentally what my M would buy for my son) and it had added up to a small fortune over the years yet now she gets nothing back.

I laughed and said with an attitude like that I'm not surprised she doesn't want to see her much, I mean, what sort of mean spirited person does it take to remember how much a tin of macoroni cheese cost 12 years ago.

Yup, I'd missed the point. I've no doubt the message was intended to try and make me feel guilty for not seeing her much, after all the tins she bought my son too, but I don't and can't believe the two things are linked. You can't do something seemingly nice for someone now to secure things you want for yourself later, it might be how it works for them but that's not how it works in my world.

You've proper cheered me up reminding me of that, I've been feeling pretty down and 'broken' recently but that reminds me that I'm not. Thank you x

There's a thread on AIBU right now with a mother who sounds like one of ours and she told the OP that the next door neighbor was shocked about her behaviour....that she has kids and isn't married to her partner, that was it. I thought, there's a stately homer right there. It's called triangulation, when they control the flow of information between you and a third party.

Hi everyone, this is about my in laws really but feel it has impacted me and my two kids..

Dhs Mum and step dad are alcoholics in denial, he had a crappy late childhood because of their drinking, he was allowed spirits aged 13 in his room alone with girlfriends, house parties etc. His parents have been so drunk his step dad has assaulted him in front of his mum (both denied) dh remembers them chucking his 15 year old friends in the street when they came home steaming, his mum was awful calling him a black sheep all the time. His sister was the golden child though and had strict rules and always has

Things came to ahead two years ago. His sister of course thinks dh was a horrible child and they’ve always had a strained relationship. They fell out and unfortunately she decided to involve my children, choosing to ignore them and not send xmas cards etc, my eldest obviously has other aunts and uncles and picked up on this and was upset, dh decided to go no contact with his sister because of this, involving kids was taking it too far. Of course his Mum went absolutely mental, blaming him and saying his sister just didn’t understand what she was doing (she’s a grown woman to put into context) everything was his fault, of course.

The other week we went to visit them and they got drunk again, dh had enough as his step dad was getting a bit aggressive so went to bed. I stayed up a little longer (it was my birthday) chattin, eventually it turned into slagging my husband off, I said my good nights and went to bed unaware dh had heard them.

He has finally had enough and has decided no contact anymore. Anyone have any tips for me helping him? Obviously they are awful but they are his parents at the end of the day and I don’t have any issues with mine and am close to my brother, I’m worried it’s hard for him to see. Just want to be able to support him really.

I wish I’d realised what this thread was about before, this is so helpful, as I’m still trying hard to understand what happened to me and my 2 siblings as children.

I have spoken about the SA that my DSis and I suffered from our father, who is sadly dead so won’t face justice, and from others. The memories were repressed for years so it’s been very hard to process what happened to us. My DM didn’t know about it, and my DSis and I have decided to believe what she says, as we’re never going to know.

What I would like to process here is other things that happened, physical and emotional abuse. My parents both smacked us hard regularly, mostly with an open hand but there were a couple of instances of hitting with a stick that my DM regrets very much (not including me, just very hard smacks).

My father was also very controlling. He did suffer from a debilitating illness so we cut him so much slack for this. But he used to say that a woman’s adultery was worse than a man’s adultery and he used to be paranoid about my DM being unfaithful. (He once told me that he thought she was cheating on him).

He was very controlling of her. She didn’t go on a weekend away with work years ago because apparently he knew what went on at those weekends. My DM was indignant but didn’t stand up to him.

When I was small, we went to Saudi Arabia for a year at his insistence. (They worked for a Christian mission society in those days.) My DM didn’t want to go, she was a mum with 3 small children so it was horrible for her.

He was similarly controlling of my siblings and me, especially financially. He used to threaten to take Christmas presents away from us, because they were still really his as he’d paid for them. (He used the same argument about our bedrooms as well.)

It’s been so confusing as he could be lovely sometimes. For years I repressed the bad things. I felt a lot of guilt when he died, because in reality he made my skin crawl when he was near me and I used to do everything possible not to have to be close to him. I was told off for upsetting him as a teenager if I refused to sit with him (despite being a daddy’s girl when younger).

I basically felt guilt for feeling glad that he was dead. And yet grieving at the same time.

I apologise if none of this rambling makes sense. It’s me trying to process my relationship with my father as it actually was. I can forgive my DM for not protecting me as she didn’t know; but then she was always working. And when she was her mind was always elsewhere.