"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

You can't miss what you've never had, flump. There are some people who remain enmeshed till adulthood and I think they have a hard time of it but you sound like you've been consciously "handling" your mother for years now.

I went to a therapist who asked me how I feel about my mother now. I said not much - that I wished her no harm and that I would like to think she could get better just so she could have a bit of a proper life (and so I'd know she wasn't going to come and try to burn our house down some day!!) but that if she did recover I still wouldn't want to see her. He thought that was OK, for what it's worth.

Hi Flump Maybe you're not missing her because you're feeling relieved?

I think the anger is at what should have been but wasn't.

Are you quite logical in your thinking? It's just if you are then I think your emotional brain has worked out that your actual M and what you are missing are two separate things. That could explain why you don't miss the empty vessel.

(Empty vessel was intended to be an illustration not an insult, although it does sum up my own M pretty well).

Thank you all

Nora I can be quite logical, but it's as if I have two brains sometimes - I can reason that it makes sense because of blah blah but then another part of me kicks in and feels guilty and shit about it anyway.

Too that's another thing, I realise now I was giving her the grey rock treatment for years to some extent, just by accident really because it was easier - not that it worked in the end. The shit thing is I am still 'enmeshed' to some extent, even though I am NC, because I worry and feel guilty about things I know I shouldn't - because she put them in my head. Example - she was horrible to me on my birthday before NC, she purposely fucked up my day. So since being NC I ignored her birthday and didn't feel bad about it really. Until she sent DC a birthday card & present, which I was glad she did as the DC shouldn't have to miss out, but then I did start feeling guilty about ignoring her birthday previously .

Maybe in some ways physically removing yourself from it is the easy bit, it's sorting your head out that takes time?

Btw Nora empty vessel sums my M up pretty well

Hi BadTasteFlump

re your comment:-
"So since being NC I ignored her birthday and didn't feel bad about it really. Until she sent DC a birthday card & present, which I was glad she did as the DC shouldn't have to miss out, but then I did start feeling guilty about ignoring her birthday previously".

This is FOG yet again.

She should not have sent any cards or presents to your children; that is her pissing all over your boundaries yet again. When you decided to go no contact she did not plan on letting you get away that easily. Her behaviour here is called hoovering. Hoovering is manipulation to gain control over your choice to distance yourself and buying presents for children because they know that you will feel guilty about keeping a present from the kids is one of their tactics.

NC after all is NC; I sincerely hope that you got rid of any cards and presents she sent them and did not acknowledge receiving such items. Do not allow this; exposing your children to manipulation is far worse

The term "empty vessel" is a brilliant term as well for such disordered people.

Attila I'm not sure what I should have done about the present - it was cash, in a card addressed to DC, who is old enough to open his own post (he's a teenager) - which he did. He is at the age where he's pretty single minded about saving up for his next whatever thing, so he pocketed the cash and gave the card a side glance, without much thought (not painting him in the best light there I realise, he is actually a lovely kid).

I feel bad because if it had been from anybody else I would be reminding him to send a thank you card or call the person, but as it's her I'm not going to do that. But then that's just bloody rude on my part to accept a gift from somebody and not acknowledge it . I just struggle with the 'all or nothing' thing with NC - it was my decision to go NC, not the DC's, after all. And whilst they aren't seeing her, so she can't infect them with any more of her crap, I also think surely it would hurt them more to think she's just forgotten them too?

I know I'm rambling again, it's just really confusing.

BTF

What I would with anything else from her is to shred it without opening. Sounds harsh doesn't it.

Do not feel bad for not acknowledging the so called "gift" she sent your son. You went no contact and she crapped over your boundaries by sending a card to your son and thus further exposing him to her manipulations. Well done him as well for pocketing the cash and not giving the card much thought; that was all correct. In this particular instance it is not at all rude to accept a gift and not acknowledge it because your mother was trying to hoover you. This behaviour called hoovering is done to maintain some degree of power and control over you, that gift to your son was never sent by her for any altruistic reasons either. You did decide to go no contact with her and for good reason to boot. They do not need to be subjected to her crap and nonsense. She was not a good parent to you and she remains a rubbish example of a grandparent to your children. Your children rely on your good judgment to keep them safe; protecting them from malign relatives is a part of that. I think the hurt you feel for them is precisely the hurt you feel for them and your feelings; they are not bothered about her fortunately.

the hurt you feel for them is precisely the hurt you feel for them and your feelings; they are not bothered about her fortunately

I think you hit the nail on the head there. Over the last few years my DC have seen her less and less leading up to NC - she doesn't seem to have much time for children as they get older, just when they are small enough to idolize her, I think. My Dsis has much younger children than mine, so when they were born my M started spending all her time with them - which was lucky for me but not so lucky for Dsis...

Hi there, first time posting on this thread. I'm a bit stuck at the moment and would really appreciate some advice on what to do to move forward.

My father and I have always had a tough relationship. He's extremely critical, and has always been concerned with my not getting above myself/not being too reactive/not being too strong willed.

I've always sought his approval in adult years, and he's painted himself as always being right. He's quite spiritual and in my mind what he says is the absolute truth. Until the last 10 years or so.

He's been so awful several times in more recent years.

At my wedding he was "uncomfortable" so did the worst speech imaginable. Pulling me down and going on and on about me in a negative way- always related to him. He started with "I never wanted to be a father"...

At a pretty recent big birthday he and his wife went all panicky because too many relatives were turning up at their house so he called me and told me "probably best if you don't come". When my husband and I had booked a hotel nearby so we could come.

Last year, when I was hospitalised with something very serious, he tried to impose his will on my husband when it came to how they could help us. "No don't be stupid I'm not coming there to help, you need to come here". And then came to visit and told me how stupid my husband was being. When I asked him not to make me a middle person he ignored me for 3 days until my husband called him to ask what was going on "she's your responsibility now, I don't need anyone being rude to me. I don't need this. She's a woman now she doesn't need me."

Then he turned up the next day and talked at me about how he still isn't over the trauma of his relationship with my mum.

Last years stuff with the ignoring and the selfishness has really hit me again now. I'm so angry with him for being so shit and always making me feel like I'm "wrong" in some way.

He ignores so much shit that went down in my childhood because he was too busy at work to notice it at the time. I guess it's traumatic that he was so distracted when I needed him. He seems to have blocked it out but projected all his anger into me. I feel like he just sees me in terms of a burden when im not and have asked for nothing for so many years.

He's so willing to criticise but so unwilling to have any allowance for me.

Anyway sorry longest message ever and others are having/have had so much worse. But what I need to know is- he has two kids, and I love them and want to be in their lives. But I don't like him and don't really want to be around him. I also don't want to go nc because it just seems super dramatic and he'll only (metaphorically) beat me up for it later. I don't know what to do.

Hi Cake

Anyway sorry longest message ever and others are having/have had so much worse

You have passed the secret initiation test with that comment so well done - we've all said that at the start...

First question that springs to mind is how old are his two children (your half siblings?). Are they old enough that you could have a relationship with them that doesn't involve him?

I think one of the first things you need to try and get your head around is the fact that he is not ever going to change - or be any help or positive influence in your life. Would you put up with a friend treating you the way he has? Are you getting anything good at all out of having a relationship with him, or is he just filling the 'father' spot in your head?

You already know you don't want to be around him. Being NC doesn't have to be a big dramatic 'event', you can just start protecting yourself without him even having to know you've made that decision. Have you heard of the term 'grey rock'? I quite like this website for simple, to the point explanations of how it can help.

It didn't work for me in the end because my mother just pushed her abuse up a level when I didn't react to the point where I had to go NC. But you could look at the method as a way of getting used to distancing and separating yourself from him before going NC, if it comes to that eventually.

I would definitely recommend doing some reading on the subject for now at least - there are loads of good recommendations at the start of this thread

And keep posting - the advice and support on here has helped me a lot.

Oops sorry I seem to have linked to a duff website there - maybe ignore that bit and stick with the recommendations at the start of the thread...

Thank you so much for all those thoughts BTF. His kids are only 10 and 13. I'm closer to the girl, who's 13, and I imagine we will continue to be close via text as she has a phone now.

But I worry that if I do distance myself it will just be so awful. I've already done that a bit but I thought in a crisis they would be there. I'm so angry at the moment I want to tell him just how awful he is.

I sent an email after the birthday thing, and also the hospital thing, but I was very measured although saying "just because you say somethings right, it doesn't make it so". I asked him to keep his distance after the hospital thing. He turned up the next morning. I remember he cried and said he loved me and is proud of me.

But why does he not see how awful he is to me? It's so hard to understand.

The biggest compliment he has ever given me is that I'm "no trouble".

If that's all I can say to my two when they're grown up I'll be so sad :(

Your dad is really a toxic person of the first order. He has never been there for you and such people really do not change. Ultimately you will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had with him rather than the one you actually got. He does not see how awful he is to you because he thinks he has done nothing wrong here (his own parents likely treated him in the same ways and so regards this as normal).

Where is your mother in all this; has she ever commented on how your dad treats you as his daughter?. Do you have siblings; if so how are they treated?.

You may well find that his children may separate themselves from you more now as they get older and as they continue to develop their own friendships. I realise that you are fond of them but you may ultimately have to let them go.

Do you have many friends of your own age group?.

A couple of things you can do to help yourself here are a) raising your boundaries a lot higher re dad, b) to completely stop seeking his approval and c) not be his confidant when it comes to the relationship between he and your mother. You are an adult in your own right and you do not need his approval any more.

I would continue to keep my distance from your father because he continues to trample over any boundary you care to set. The crying and other stuff from him was just more of the same old emotional manipulation designed to tug at you.

Thanks for the reply AtM, much appreciated.

My mother sadly died 11 years ago unexpectedly. She was a troubled person but a great mother in lots of ways. She used to balance out my dads pretty harsh attitude somewhat.

His wife is also a positive figure, on the whole. She's been around since I was 16 and mostly has been balanced about the whole thing. He has been awful to her in many ways (not speaking to her for months when their second baby came because he was under pressure at work and couldn't give the newborn and it's mum any headspace for example). And yet she understand him and explains him and loves him so much. Lucky him to have found a woman who puts up with so much.

I have a lot of friends my own age and a very supportive husband. He thinks it's amazing I've ended up so normal considering my childhood. Of course I expect the kids will be Independent and have lots of their own friendships as they grow-it would be really odd if they didn't. I guess once they get to 16/18 or so I wouldn't even worry about seeing them as they'll be on their own paths and able to come over and see me if they like.

we moved partly to be close to my dads family and it's almost always me going to their house. If I stop I doubt we will see them more than twice a year or so. And the reason for that is my dad being so critical and undermining. Do you think there's any way to thrash it out with him? Actually I just don't think I have the energy.

Why would he be so convinced I'm this selfish demanding burden? I've made sure not to ask for anything since I was in my mid 20s I think. I'm always offering to help. When his kids were tiny I would offer to babysit all the time. Yes when he was visiting me at hospital he said "and you never helped us with the kids". This was apropos of nothing.i don't ask for help with mine?!

Aghhhhhhhh

Hi all, new to this thread.

I previously posted about my Mother www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2773507-My-Mother-is-a-narcissist-does-it-ever-get-better

As you can see my problems with her are not as serious as some others go through, but I struggle all the same. Since last year our relationship has barely improved and we've seen her perhaps 3 or 4 times. She phones every Sunday evening, like clockwork. Sundays are perhaps our busiest evening and it's never convenient, so sometimes we cannot answer, or are in middle of something, but it suits her so she won't call at any other time.

I don't know what has prompted me coming on here, just feeling the strain with her I guess. Our beautiful DD is now 20 months old. My mother never asks how she is, whenever she phones (and I manage to keep these Sunday night conversations short! Less than 10 mins) she never asks after my DD, or even DH. My resentment towards her over this just increases and increases.

On Sundays call she said she was looking forward to coming and seeing us... to which I replied, oh really, and when will that be. October the 21st she replied.... news to me. Apparently she told me months ago. Basically she has an event near us and wants to come and stay with us the night before. I just don't want her here.... I feel terrible that I want to turn her down, she's my Mother after all, but I dread having to make chit chat with her like everything is ok.

This is all made worse by my Dad (they are seperated, she left him for another man and ever since her behaviour seems to have spiralled) telling me that he let slip to her that I had had a very generous pay increase at work. Her response was 'oh f*cking brilliant, it's alright for her isn't it... I hope this might improve her demeanour towards me then' before apparently moaning on and on about how she always has to have a 3-way conversation whenever she phones. Presumably to do with me having a 20 month old that I might respond to or check on etc whilst talking to her. I mean, how dare I!?

The salary thing is not a recent issue. I didn't go to uni, mostly because she didn't want me to, and I've worked very hard to get on despite that, and done very well for myself. I know how lucky I am as I earn a very good wage, but she has never, ever been pleased for me, I only ever hear about how hard she works and she doesn't get a pay increase etc. My dad on the other hand is so proud of me. Hence why i hadnt told her! But just another reason I don't want her staying with me, one more thing she will no doubt be holding against me.

Sorry for my rambling, moaning essay. I'm feeling very torn right now, and don't know what to say to her.

Cake I doubt you would get anywhere trying to thrash out things with your father. If it was a matter of crossed wires then some mutual honesty might resolve things, but your father has been consistently unkind and seems to have cast you in the scapegoat role. He probably gets quite a big psychological payback from being able to blame any of his negative emotions on you. It sounds like he does similar with his wife and she sounds like an enabler - she is managing his emotions minute to minute. I wonder if there is any possibility ever that he would have made 1 percent of the effort you and his wife have made with him.

Hey I also wanted to ask you guys if anyone related to this. I had a fairly untroubled relationship with my dad and while I have tended to be quite people pleasing in my relationships and friendships, I feel like I got a light dose of dysfunction around personal relationships. Where it all goes wrong for me is in work. I derive all my self worth from working (difficult just now, as I'm a SAHM) and I've put up with a whole lot of stuff in order to get that sweet sweet feeling of being OK - powered through two degrees in a subject I never really liked, put up with several instances of workplace bullying. I worked hard to get given responsibility I didn't want, and when my company made people redundant I left very quickly - I couldn't cope with the lack of safety. I felt constantly under pressure and no good at my job.

I am now permanently out of my old career - it was way too competitive and tbh in decline in Europe, for someone with a long hiatus to be able to get back in - and I'm kind of at peace with that I think, partly - but I have no idea how to go forward. I would like to be working, there's no immediate pressure to go back, but I have two problems. First, am I just going to go back to deriving all my self worth from the job again? I haven't fixed this issue, I feel ashamed at not having a job (I know I don't need to be ashamed, but that is the feeling I have), and I will feel better if I'm working, but presumably the feeling of being useless will just come back at retirement? And I don't have much clue how to choose something I will actually like, as I always prioritised the wrong things in the past. It's like, regarding work, the things I want are not the things I end up liking, if that makes any sense. Can anyone relate?

toomuch yes I can. My M wanted me to be an extrovert person who does things she can boast about to her friends, and I ended up studying a subject at university and subsequently following a career that reflected that. In reality I’m a fairly nerdy (in a non-perjorative sense) introvert. I’ve been in my profession now for nearly 30 years and wish I wasn’t... I went freelance a few years ago which has helped enormously, but I’m still in a field that doesn’t really suit me (even though I’m experienced and not bad at doing it) and fantasise about doing something else, but don’t know what!

I guess you need to somehow work out what truly makes you happy long-term. Which is not necessarily the same as what you have done in the past to please parents/escape parents/escape your view of yourself that your parents put there, IYSWIM.

I wish I knew where to start! Maybe a career advisor or life coach?

BTW I don’t think it’s wrong in any way to want a job. Having small children at home is pretty mindless, let’s be honest, no matter how much you love them, and when I was a SAHM I know my self-esteem plummeted. If you have a feeling of emptiness/uselessness though, it might not be the job situation. It’s a common feeling if you were once parent of a codependent family where you were expected to fulfil the needs of a parent.

Sorry - I seem to have echoed much of what you’ve said without coming up with anything useful. I think I do know how you feel though.

*part, not parent.

I have just been prompted to join this thread from another thread but feel a bit of fraud. Please feel free to kick me out. I had a happy child hood- my memories are good and my parents were happy. This continued into my late twenties/ early thirties but shortly after the birth of my first child, my mother died of cancer. My father has been nothing short of a dick since. They had a happy marriage for 40 years and he was back out on the scene dating within two weeks. A range of unsuitable woman followed and he re married about three years ago. My step mother is a nice woman who I get on with but my father has now devolved all contact to her. I recently had major surgery and he couldn't have been less interested. Choosing to go to football and meetings ( he's retired) than visit or help. I realise my mother held the family together and the father he was was shaped by her rather than the reality. How to move on ?

Hi all...haven't been on here for a few weeks...hope it's still okay to post.

Well, I started therapy two weeks ago and been twice. I know it's very early days, but I don't feel comfortable around the person at all. I am already dreading next week's appointment.

I had put so much hope into this and now I feel even worse than before.

He is making me feel as though I am pretending to be worse than I actually am, if that makes sense?

During the first (short) appointment he asked me to explain in my own words what had prompted me to seek therapy. I said that I had been feeling suicidal and my husband was worried and took me to see the GP and it snowballed from there.

He replied that he didn't get the impression I was feeling suicidal (I didn't say I was still), but that I come across as being 'tense'.

Happyvalley you are very welcome here. We don't do evictions! 💐
Sorry to hear about your Dad. I'm afraid it will be a painful process of reassessing your past based on what you now know. Hopefully you will reach some acceptance that you deserve better than what you are getting. His distance reflects very badly on him NOT YOU.

Sunflower sorry to hear that. I am quite new to therapy, having not 'signed on' with someone else. I do think personality is so important. You are baring your soul after all.