"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

What exactly are you getting at, Quelto? Really not sure where you're coming from.

Quelto why do you want to know?

Many of us on here have experienced emotional abuse which, while it may not be as obvious as some of the forms of abuse you mentioned, is still abuse.

It's ok. Emotional, physical abuse as child, sexual abuse as teen, by someone outside the family.

But I don't want to go into more specific details. I believe my own children are safe.

Thanks for your response, Attila. It means a lot

I know it's only September but I've told my M already that we're not having them (her and dad) round for Christmas.

Christmas is a bit of an odd one, from me being 16 her and dad used to go abroad for Christmas leaving me on my own. Then when I had my son they stayed home for a few Christmas's but after a few years of that they started going away again because my M didn't want to spend Christmas with Grandma (my dad's mum) so they left me to deal with Grandma and my uncle and my great aunt. A few years ago Grandma passed away so they decided they'd come to mine for Christmas as going away was too expensive. I didn't mind but as each year has passed by my M has become more controlling and more critical, last year she upset all of us but my son the most.

Anyho, I wasn't brave enough to say why I didn't want her to come, I've made lame excuses, but I've said it nevertheless. She appeared to take it well, saying they'll be fine and that she's never liked a Christmas anyway and that it's not the same when you're not a child. The only worrying thing was, later on she kind of crowbarred in that they'll only come for a few hours anyway. I'm a bit concerned that she's planning to ignore what I've said, she's got form for that. Last year we arranged for them to arrive at midday and she turned up at 10am. It meant I didn't get chance to shower and put something nice on and the house was in a mess from pressies and breakfast, my OH was actually naked when they turned up and my son had gone back to bed for a kip.

I can sympathise Nora. My M has been invited to my aunt’s for Christmas. Once we found out (via DSis) we decided we would book a holiday over Christmas as we’ve always wanted to do that but never had the opportunity before because we always had to see one or other of our parents. (MiL is with BiL this year too.)

Anyway I waited until M had told us she was going to my aunt’s (which took her another week, even though she knew it was our ‘turn’ to see her at Christmas), and then told her that we already knew via DSis and that we were going away. I thought she took it well - she seemed really happy for us.

However, next thing I know, DSis is texting me - M has rung her and complained that we are going away ‘without considering her’! Total lie!

Stick to your guns (and your boundaries) Nora. Have the Christmas you want to have.

I do hate Christmas. I thought we’d got a free one ‘off’ this Christmas but she’s buggered up even that with her crappiness. Though it’s kind of had the opposite effect of what she hoped, because as a result of the barefaced lie, DSis and I are now both questioning whether we actually even should be considering her at all in the first place.

Has anyone actually had their mother apply to court for access to grandchildren?

My M has fallen out with me, and 10 weeks in she is making veiled threats about this contact "being the last time she will attempt to see my children through me".

She was spoiling for a fight over text message, I tried to side step the argument and made a joke (big mistake). She verbally attacked me and then was surprised when I asked her not to come and visit.

I've made it clear I need an apology and despite lots of flying monkeys, no apology forthcoming.

Hence leading to today's message.

I replied saying that in order to rebuild her relationship with my children (who she has not seen for 3 months or so now, and they are all under 6), we would need to repair our relationship, which required an apology.

No reply but I'm now a bit shaken about the veiled threat as I know she would look very presentable if we went to court, and I could not prove she would be harmful.

It really is like you can't do right for doing wrong Spare. Must admit I'm struggling with guilt over telling mine that we're not having them this year but I'm struggling just as much with how they could leave me on my own at Christmas when I was so young and I had absolutely no one else, and how they could leave my dad's mum when she was so old and didn't have many Christmas's left. I've never thought about it before, I must have been so used to it happening that it became just one of those things and I became matter of fact about it. Now, I just don't understand how their mind & heart could think that was okay to do.

Nora what I find hard is working out which bits of my guilt are part of my ‘real’ conscience and which bits are just her voice in my head that she’s put there through 50 years of conditioning.

In your case, your parents have each other, so I don’t see that anyone is going to be left alone at Christmas if they don’t come to you. You have nothing to feel remotely guilty about, especially as they have behaved that way themselves towards others anyway!

In any case, I can’t help feeling that the whole societal ‘mustn’t leave anyone alone at Christmas’ thing is a giant get-out-of-jail-free card for narcissistic parents. If someone’s parent(s) had physically abused or neglected them, nobody would bat an eyelid that they didn’t want to see them at Christmas. I don’t see why it isn’t the same if the abuse or neglect is emotional.

Hi Spare. I agree 100%.

That's not to say I don't feel guilty about a whole range of things relating to my mother - despite her treating me, and my DC, really badly. She definitely won't be spending Christmas with us this year - going on the fact that she's blanked me for six months - but even though that's her doing, I'm already feeling guilty about her 'missing out'. It's shit and it makes no sense (feeling guilty, I mean).

On the plus side, we will have happy, stress free Christmas without the fucking Grinch sitting in the corner making everybody on edge or outright miserable...

Sunnie I would take those threats with a pinch of salt. Are you in the UK? I've seen discussions about this subject on tv, and read stuff on the internet in passing. I am no legal expert but it seems in general grandparents are unsuccessful in trying to go to Court for contact - even when they have done nothing wrong at all (I saw a case where the GP's were denied contact just because their son had split with his wife, who was the resident parent). So adding to that the fact that you are keeping your DC away from her because of her abusive behaviour, I don't think she would have much luck

Has anyone actually had their mother apply to court for access to grandchildren?

No, no experience here - if I were you I'd speak to a family lawyer and get some qualified advice. There are a couple of legal hoops she would need to jump through to get to court (assuming it's England) - grandparents don't have an automatic right to make an application for contact, they have to apply to the court to see if they can make an application, if that makes sense. It's still scary though.

I really wish the law dealt with this better. I have sympathy for the grandparents who submit these applications when their child's relationship breaks down and they lose contact with the parent who has custody, no fault of theirs, but I can't help feeling that as things stand, it's too easy for abusive grandparents to make malicious applications.

Spare regarding telling "authentic self" guilt from FOG guilt, I find it has got easier with more recovery, but what can always help is reasoning through what is happening and figuring out whether you're really responsible. My rules of thumb are 1) you're responsible for your own behaviour, but not for other people's reactions to your behaviour 2) don't feel obliged to do something for someone else if you wouldn't expect them to do the same for you in the opposite situation and just generally 3) don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.

What you said Flump and I would add Sunnie that from what I've heard, the court takes into account how much of an existing relationship there is between the grandparents and the grandkid so if she is going to actually take it to court (I agree with Flump though, they're usually all talk) it's in your interests not to let her have contact.

I posted a while ago about my mother and wanting to write to her after reading toxic parents. I didn't send the letter but I did write it and that helped me to realise that nearly all my life I have beleived that I am difficult, nasty, bad and a dissapointment to my mother.

Recently she and I had decided that it would be a good idea for her to appoint me to have LPA in case of future need. This was going ahead as far as I knew but had heard nothing. So asked my mother and she told me that she had changed her mind in the light of a telephone call (one that I wrote about on here about her aggressive dismissal of my views etc) where she says I was "so horrid and hurt me so much" that she had decided that she would not do the LPA because she was sure that I would give away all her money to the labour party! I was dumbfounded to say the least. I have told her many times that LPA is about her care not about me having access to her money and I told her that this time she was clearly saying she does not trust me to make good decisions for her when needed. She denied that this was the natural implication of her actions and I began then to worry that she is already beginning to lose her ability to reason logically.

Today I got a card in her handwriting through the post adresed to my partner (we don't live together and she doesnt know his address), I thought nothing of it and passed it to him for his birthday. He opened it and it was completely blank. She had not written anything in it. Clearly she had forgotten to write in the card. I am now increasingly worried that she is beginning to lose the plot. This is not the first time she has forgotten stuff- she frequently gets my name wrong (I am the only daughter), forgets phone numbers, forgets things I have told her or tells me a story I have told her as if a friend has told her the story. I am very low contact with her and don't know how to broach this with her. I have not spoken to her for over a month (since the "you're going to give all my money to the labour party" conversation) and I dont really want to talk to her at all but this latest lapse coupled with her increasgly odd conclusions and aggresiveness is making me wonder if she is facing the beginnings of dementia (she is 79).

I am at a loss to know what to do- she will not see the doctor about her memory because she is scared she will be told not to drive any more and her driving is the root of her martyr complex- she drives her husband because he has epilepsy and my aunt because she cannot walk far and my uncle's health is failing meaning that he can often no longer drive. I dont think she is safe to drive- she got a speeding ticket recently and was angry about it rather than admitting she had missed seeing the speed limit signs, she refused to do the course for speeding beause she has been "driving for so long that they cannot teach me [her] anything". When she calls me she regales me of how she has to drive everyone around because they are too ill or too stupid (her sister who never learned to drive) and how she HAS to do it all.

I am the only child and wish I had someone to share this with- I am low contact to try to keep her nastiness at bay but now I am seriously worried that she is perhaps already past being able to make a decision about LPA. I honestly do not know what to do for the best, for her or for me. I could just carry on with LC and see what happens. Her husband has serious epilepsy and cannot decide what clothes to wear for the day- she says she has all the LPA she needs in him. Do I leave her to cope with the inevitable outcomes of her actions or try to guide her to something that means I might be able to help when she declines further? Its the obligation bit that keeps me going back. I dont let her guilt trip me any more and I wont let her frighten me any more either. But it seems coldhearted to do nothing when I can see that she is losing it.

Sorry for the long rant.

I like your rules of thumb Toomuch. I'm struggling with guilt more than ever and I think it's because I'm doing more of what I want and also consciously going against what I've been conditioned to do whereas when I automatically behaved as expected or as others wanted, although I was permanently people pleasing, it did allow me to have a clear conscience of sorts.

So far I'm trying to cope by pushing the guilt away and convincing myself that I can't back down or I'll make it even harder for myself next time. I do feel like I'm being a bit me me me though and I'm not used to it, I don't feel like it suits me somehow. There seems to be information out there about how we're made to feel guilty but not much at all on how to break away from it.

I like toomuch’s rules of thumb too.

I have just finished the ‘Peaceful Daughter’s Guide...’ book and in there she suggests that feeling your emotions properly will help too, and she explains how to do it by focusing on what your body is doing and really trying to absorb yourself in the feeling. So after I found out that my M was accusing me of not considering her needs (even though we only booked the holiday because we knew she was safely somewhere else, so that wasn’t true) I realised I was really stressed and guilty-feeling so I tried the technique. I realised that the emotion at the bottom of it was basically fear - fear of not being a ‘good girl’ and fear of how my mother would perceive me. I think realising that kind of helped because once you identify the feeling properly it’s fairly obvious how inappropriate it is for a woman my age to feel that about her mother.

flamingnora that sounds a really crap situation. I don’t think that realistically there’s anything you can do though if your M doesn’t want to do the LPA. You have offered - as toomuch says, you’re not responsible for her reaction, i.e. her refusal to accept it.

Yes spare I think that's what I have to do/ leave her to her decisions. I was not looking forward to having LPA anyway. As it is, she is not giving me any say so she and he can fend for themselves in their warped world.

Flamingnora I agree with spare that you're not responsible for her decisions. If you wanted more advice could you contact somewhere like Age UK?

Nora and spare The Christmas nonsense has started here already too. Apparently my sibling needs a special extra Christmas celebration. I won't go into the details but I have a horrible sinking feeling that this is the next game that I'm going to lose. It's all very irritating. And then I feel guilty for feeling irritated by it - last year I played the game and tried really hard and did everything I was supposed to. And it was a bit of a farce the whole thing!! Makes me angry thinking about it a year later! I think the thing is though, stepping back from the whole Christmas thing, it's just a day that needs boundaries to protect ourselves, just like any other day.

flaming

I would further lower your already low contact levels.

As the others have said I would leave her to her own decisions; you cannot help anyone who does not want to be helped in any case.
BTW having a LPA for your mother at all is really more trouble than it is worth.

Teatime

It sounds like you are still psychologically looking after your mother (a role she gave you from childhood) and you are mired in your own FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) re her. Have you considered seeing a therapist re your mother?. Its not actually your fault she is like this; you did not make her that way (her own family of origin did that). What made you resume contact with this woman. Ultimately you need to get off the merry go around that your mother has you on.

You do not mention your dad in all this; where is he?.

I would book a holiday this Christmas and tell her after booking it. Your DH seems to be on your side; I would present this to her as a done deal via a phone call. She will likely kick off hugely again but your life cannot be dominated by her any more. At the very least the two of you need to present a united front.

I've been wondering something lately. As some of you will know I have been NC with my M for a few months now after her last rage at me.

I did feel really upset at first, and for a while it completely dominated my thoughts. But what seems strange is that I haven't missed her at all. I don't feel any sadness about her not being around, for me, or the DC, even though she did used to put on her 'nice' face for them a lot of the time. I know logically there's not much to miss anymore; she stopped bothering being nice to me a long time ago apart from the odd surreal moment of her acting like a 'real' mother here and there. But surely just the fact that I saw her a lot, at least once a week and phone calls in between, would mean that I would miss her?

It bothers me that my lack of emotion on that front is because of my own issues (I can be very switched off - apparently I may have CPTSD). But I am working on that, I can feel emotions for anybody else in my life, but when I think of her and the whole situation, I still feel angry at her behaviour, and also pity for what a screwed up lonely woman she is. But that's it She literally disappeared from my life six months ago, so it's as if she died - but without me missing her.

Is that normal? I suppose part of me is scared it could suddenly hit me one day... Sorry for rambling.

Attila thank you for your reply, and you're right. After posting realised, with other stuff going on, even if I know the right thing to do wouldn't be able to see it through at the mo. So asked for deletion.
I'm lucky DH is totally on board. He's only person to have really seen Sis and DM in full furious action (didn't realise he was in house and could hear). DF has never really been in picture, now deceased.

Hi Teatime

I go on holiday every Christmas now partly because of DHs family (MIL is a covert narcissist and BIL is a twat of the first order) and my own (my parents are basically uninterested and usually call more when they want advice or to brain dump).

The final straw for me came some years back when MIL came here for Christmas; she waited until DH was out of the room then came up to me with the small lunch box sized bottle of Evian water for her other son telling me that this was for him. She could not be asked to even bring over a litre bottle. It was that selfish action which would look innocuous to some on AIBU for instance that made me say F this I'm going abroad from now on. And I have.

Flump my personal theory re missing/not missing your M is that if you have a ‘normal’ M, you feel sadness/grief if she’s not with you any more. If you have a narc or codependent M, because she has suppressed/fucked with your normal emotions you get the FOG instead.