"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks fc - that's kind of where I've got to with journalling. I'm finding myself spontaneously writing all sorts of things like conversations we might have and how they might respond, and between them and a potential therapist to justify or acknowledge things.. it IS all therapeutic (though also emotionally draining) in itself.

Does the confrontation also apply to step-parents and others (surrogates) I wonder, or just to biological parents? (maybe the book clarifies, I haven't got that far yet). I have biological parents who have been around at points and NC at others, had a step-DF for 4-6 years on and off, another for 10 years but after I left home (but have had a few issues with things he has said and done nonetheless). Brief partners of DM in between times. Several 'surrogates' - one of whom does that thing described above where you think you are having a quite normal conversation but they say something that is a jibe. It's not so straightforward as just confronting biological parents, though it is their words and behaviour I feel most deeply even where others were around for longer.

tiggers for me personally I decided Susan Forward was wrong on this point! If I confronted my M, it would cause an enormous upset which would ricochet around the extended family and I'm fairly sure that after the fuss had died down nothing would have changed (except for the worse) and I would feel no better. I have written a letter, but I've never sent it. That was enough for me.

I think for some parents there is a chance that, given the opportunity, they might be capable of understanding, if not changing. But if you know that chance isn't there, then as you say, what's the point.

tiggers thinking about it some more, I think that Susan Forward's aim, in that part of the book, was to get you to properly confront the feelings that were buried when you were small, in order to achieve closure. However, I think the Pete Walker/Alice Miller approach (the Pete Walker website is really good by the way) where you sort of take yourself back to childhood (by yourself, in your head) and properly feel the feelings you should have felt at the time, achieves the same end without having to confront your parents. I suppose different methods will work for different people. Does that make sense?

I've ordered 'The Peaceful Daughter's Guide to Separating from a Difficult Mother' which others on here have recommended. I'm hoping it'll help too.

HI Everyone - havent been on for a while but just read the last few threads.

I agree that confronting a parent is a waste of time and energy - and will just give them more amunition to hurt you with .

Spare it's timely for me that you mention going back in your head to process the emotions you felt. I've had a couple of counselling sessions now and at the next one I'm going to start writing a time line, kind of like my life story, so we can identify all the events that I need to go 'back' to during my sessions. Im a bit aprehensive about it but also really hopeful .

And chest I have one word for you - move!

Now going to catch up with the thread...

spare I really liked that book - it's not too heavy going and really helped me process things when the shit hit the fan. Probably my favourite book on the subject so far... and I'm reading quite a few

I know exactly what you mean about them making our punishments into an art form. Mother had a stool by her chair and any birthday or Christmas present I bought her would stay on the stool for almost a year. Every time I visited the gift would be starring back at me still in its box. Sometimes she would say, "I must get step-father to put that junk up in the loft, " motioning towards the gift. Then, "I don't l know who bought it for me".

Ha Astra you've reminded me of one time at my M's house with DD - who was looking through my M's make up. I had bought her a really nice (expensive) Brow Kit as a Christmas present to replace the ginger eye pencil she used to use . DD found it and my M said to her 'Ooh, you can have that ridiculous stuff to play with - don't know who bought me that, trying to make me look like a clown!' - all said whilst smirking at me.

Jeez I really don't miss her one bit.

I've posted else where but thought you ladies would understand.

Bit of background. So my mum has always been a bit opinionated to me and Dsis. Can be a bit overpowering and can be a bit full of herself. Even though she claims she's shy and what not. She came round mine earlier to drop something off. I had a handyman round fixing something. We were chatting about work and he mentioned he knew of my dad as they are in the same line of work. When my mum turned up i mentioned this and we were all chatting. Now this is the bit that annoyed me. She was saying people doing "pen pushing" were dull,boring and no sense of humour. She knows I have an office job so felt this was a bit of a dig at me. I just said hey in a light hearted way and she said "Well you are boring". Didn't want to say anything in front of this handyman and by the time they stopped talking I let it go. But AIBU to be annoyed she said That? She doesn't even work so she has no room to talk! It's like she changes into a different person in front of other people and feels like she has to impress or she will put me or someone else down. Mainly me if I'm there. Why as a parent would you want to make your child look stupid. I wouldn't do that to my DS!

Thank you everyone for your comments, much appreciated. Thank you for cheering me on!! There aren't many people irl who are actually genuinely encouraging/ empowering like that.

Toomuch Very insightful! Yes that's pretty much what's going on. And the sad thing is that without even realising it, I keep finding myself going along with it and slotting back into my role. At the time I'm thinking this is great! It's all great again! And then hours or days later I realised I've been a total walkover. I'm just having a really overwhelming phase of doubting myself and wanting everything to be ok, and I think this potential move has really brought it all into focus.

I'm seesawing a lot about the potential move. It's scary! And it's a huge thing to do (we have a toddler). I've finding the whole being so far away from my parents a big emotional stumbling block. I'm ok with the reality but it's the fantasy that I can't really shake off. Leaving behind what I wish it was.

Had a call with M today. Same pattern again. Thought it was fantastic but then picked over it and realised some issues with it, jibes, and things where I complied without realising it at the time. It's hard because at the time it genuinely feels like it's all ok so I start to think is it just that I'm being cynical/ horrible because I'm going between these two views on it all, when I'm with her it's great and when I'm not I realise it's not great if that makes sense?

Earlyrising definitely sounds like a dig, and definitely not ok! What's the big picture with the relationship?

Hamptons glad you have support. I have to ask... Why can't you go NC with brother? Your parents' decision to support him is their own decision, and their own responsibility - you don't have to be responsible for the burdens that they are choosing to carry - you're not emotionally responsible for them. Could you do something else with that worrying energy, instead of feeling you have to fix everything? Are you in therapy?

spare and badtaste thanks

Have been mulling this over today. I think there may be a reason to confront DM if (probably when) she does reappear after this latest silent treatment. The trouble is, DC don't understand adult issues, so don't understand why they seem to sometimes have a GM and sometimes not, why they can sometimes see her when they ask and sometimes not. I don't think it's fair, and if I'm DD's protector I do need to have firm words. Especially as DD's DF has never been around, she already doesn't understand why she doesn't have a DF and keeps asking for a DF and brothers/sisters, which breaks my heart. She is already going to have so much to come to terms with as she grows, I don't want her to be confused and believe it's ok for people who say they love her to leave and reappear at random. I could say it gently, but think I do need to inform DM she must make the decision - is she a GM or not? If yes, then we need certain ground rules, that need to be based on DD's interests, not just DM's feelings/whims/needs/wants...

Quiet here at the moment!

Tiggers It sounds like you have a clear idea of the purpose/ what you want to achieve. Maybe you could see it more as a discussion about firm boundaries, rather than a confrontation? It sounds more like you're wanting to talk about where you go from here, in a way that protects your DD, rather than discussing everything that has happened.

I'm really struggling with panic attacks at the moment :(

Hi Chest,
Not in therapy, no. Probably should be but can't afford it,

Brother will be living with parents. I cannot take our children to visit so going NC with him sort of means doing it with them too.

Who will be responsible for him should anything happen to my parents? It's going to be us siblings who are next of kin, isn't it? It may be a moot point as he's fairly likely to attempt suicide I think.

At the moment I'm scared it's all going to lead to my family having a huge and irreconcilable split.

It's just exhausting.

I'm veering between lashing out over stupid, irrelevant shit, uncontrollable tears and wanting to up sticks and move to Australia.

Suffice to say, my head is a total shed.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3040805-remembering-abusive-childhood-memories

I was told about this thread on Friday. Had a big wobble at work, during a staff meeting about safeguarding.

Literally just as I posted that my D text me, he has gone weeks without texting, no how are you ok anything like that

Posted too soon. He text about a charity event he had held and how much he raised for a cancer that my mum died from. I don't want to text back, I want to go Nc, my dh said there's nothing about me, so don't bother. So many feelings and emotions at the mo.

I think it's worth remembering that everybody thinks they had awful parents. Sons hate their fathers but don't have much to do with them, so it's not noticed much, and daughters hate their mothers but are more in contact with them so it's often all out war. It's almost a biological imperative. Someone should wright a thesis on it.
Just think how much you love your kids, you'd die for them. But they don't love you like that. They just need you. And that's the way it should be---you'll probably die before them so nature is being kind really. It would be cruel if they loved you like you loved them. When they get to be adults, they still don't love you and think they don't need you. It's so easy to blame our parents for all our woes. Each generation thinks the one before short-changed them and they could do soooo much better, but wait another ten years and your children will be saying they had a dysfunctional upbringing.

lou I just read your original post. There’s some good advice there about therapy etc. Welcome to the thread here - you are in the right place. Personally I am LC rather than NC at the moment but plenty of others here are NC and will be along to give advice if you need it.

purdy what's the point of your post

I for one don't think I "had awful parents" but they did a lot of things I would never do. Then I read a story like Lou's and see how bad some abuse can be. Are her feelings toward her father just a result of a normal evolutionary distance?

Of course things are on a spectrum but this thread isn't full of people just blaming their parents when they had a normal upbringing. It's about talking through the effects of having a shitty upbringing. I'm certain my boys will one day find things about me irritating but they'll never remember being left on the side of the road at 6 while their parents were arrested, or watching their stepdad swing an axe at their mum, or look after their young sibling all night on their own at 12 as their mother is out drinking, or have to give their mother money for heroin etc etc

??? I loved my mum lots, my dad was abusive, physically, verbally and mentally. Was a bully and ruled the house through fear. Would quite often beat me with the dog collar buckle or a garden cane.

Hi lou welcome to the thread. So sorry for what you've been through. I agree about looking into getting therapy. What support do you have irl? Recovering traumatic memories is really hard and can be retraumatising in itself. Do you know much about things like grounding, mindfulness, coping strategies for flashbacks etc? What's your self care like? I'd ignore the text from D if it's nothing urgent, just give yourself some time.

Purdy not sure why you're posting that here... This is a supportive place for survivors of abuse and dysfunctional toxic families. If you're posting to test the waters, please know that you're welcome here to share and seek support. Oh and we'll have to agree to disagree on your theory, that's a very sad view of healthy family relationships.

Hi everyone, asking for input.

I want to give my therapist some resources/ info/ stuff to read on this stuff. The Daughters of Narc Mothers website is my first thought, and Toxic Parents.

I can't remember half the stuff I've read! Anything I should recommend?

Also do you have any sort of tips? Key info to pass on/ key things to understand. I'm thinking things like the fact that with a narc parent you can't just bring up an issue, it'll turn into a drama and feed the problem iyswim.

Thanks xx

wait another ten years and your children will be saying they had a dysfunctional upbringing

Well I suppose nobody can guarantee that won't happen, but all I know is that I spend every day trying to be the best parent I can. And so far my DC are 100% less fucked up than I was at their age and long may that continue. purdy I get the feeling there's more to your post than meets the eye but I'm not sure what - you sound quite defensive and angry?

Chest have you just started seeing your therapist? I haven't had many sessions with mine yet, but she was very clear from the start that her focus wasn't on my M and whatever issues or personality disorder she may have, but on me, and helping me to define my own boundaries and my own sense of self, so that I can better deal with whoever /whatever comes along. Ie it's not about your mother, it's about you, if that makes sense? Sorry if I'm completely going off in a different direction to you!

**Chest. my dH knows pretty much everything, he's great to talk to, and he's seen first hand the dismissive, aggressive behaviour my D shows me. I had counselling when my mum died, it made me realise how toxic he is. I don't really know what anything about grounding and mindfulness etc.

I left home when I was 19, had what I thought was a good relationship with my mum, but now am having doubts, why would she put up with him hurting his children? When I was clearly asking for help, saying I wanted to contact childline, I get told ss will take me away and I'll never see her or my brothers again. I buried most of what happened, I will argue with my D, but I am also the one who has had to do everything, my brothers don't live close, and made excuses, leaving it down to me. I want the day to come when he's died, and I can live my life, free of him.

Purdy, perhaps you should take a year while to read the nearly 10 years worth of threads that these posters have been through and then perhaps you may a have a tiny inkling of what abuse and not 'awful parenting' they have been through.