"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

fc301 is it helping at all? My relationship with food is awful too, currently piling it on but feel it's out of my control as I eat as though in a trance.

Have been musing about a few things today.

For example, that I feel like due to the way I grew up, I have a higher pain threshhold than a lot of people around me. Especially those who grew up in stable, emotionally supportive homes. They get stressed and go into some sort of crisis/defense mode at what I would consider relatively small things that I would soldier through, and also expect others to be really understanding and supportive in such crises.

Maybe this is partly to do with being a lone parent as an adult too, but I just get on with stuff - I get tired and worn down, but I go through things time and again where I think those people from decent homes might have a breakdown or something. But maybe their approach is more healthy - they actually NOTICE when they are stressed, because they were allowed to experience their own emotions as a child? and maybe their reactions/defences are the healthier ones?

Yes it's definitely affecting my decisions with food.

I know what you mean. Do you feel almost a bit resentful when people 'make a fuss'. I do think I'm very resilient, probably through necessity. But I think you are right/ theirs is probably a healthier reaction.

Ringleader your DBs GF is in the fortunate position of having no comprehension of what a toxic family is like.

Ringle

Exactly. It just seems so cruel. But she has no concept

fc301 resentful.. honestly, yes, that's kind of how I got to thinking about it. For example, people letting me down because something has come up in their life and they are putting themselves first, when had our roles been reversed I would have not let them down.

I've been trying to turn it around in my head so I can actually understand how these people who were/are well supported think. If I can get my head into that space maybe I have a better chance of understanding what healthy looks like.

On the positive side, maybe it is something we have - a strength as well as a weakness - that we don't buckle as easily in the face of the small things (things that to us are relatively small).

Tigger, FC,
that ability to grit your teeth and get on with it might be linked to dissociation. A lot of sufferers of childhood trauma are like this. One of the difficult things about it is that the stress still seems to be felt in your body and mental state - tiredness, ailments, low mood - even as you are not consciously aware of it. You might find from Richard Grannon interesting, also the book The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel van der Kolk which talks a lot about the physical effects of complex trauma, or either of Pete Walker's books, particularly the CPTSD one.

Thanks I'll look at those 👍

Fed up today, someone saw fit to screenshot my Mum's Facebook statuses. Yet again she's been trapping off about me. Why do people feel the need to do this? I was getting on perfectly fine without seeing her shit again. FML might be time to shut it down.

I think it's both those things Spare and fc301 putting me in my place because she can and enjoying doing it.

When I was young they would both put me down, M would be very critical to the point of abusive, D would more taunt and tease. But both would either laugh or roll their eyes and call me too sensitive if I cried, challenged or complained. My mum always knows best so with her I'm meant to look up to her superior ways, with dad I'm meant to take his insults on the chin because everything is just a big joke.

Tiggers Behaving like that is down to being conditioned to put other people's needs before your own. That's why you don't let people down and that's why you soldier through even if it's detrimental to your health or wellbeing, it's also why you don't ask for help even when you could do with it. Toomuch is right though, you may have been conditioned to not feel it mentally but physically it can show. With me it was unexplained gut pains that manifested when I hit 40, not just the odd tummy pain, I was off work for two months because I could barely walk yet all the scans and cameras showed my insides to be perfectly fine. I also get intermittent pain in my shoulder/neck from holding myself too tight (while stressed) then relaxing (when no longer stressed), I don't even know I'm doing it. In the end I was diagnosed with physical stress and they (the doctors) hadn't even asked me what my life was like. I was so convinced that I wasn't stressed that I didn't actually believe them until the medication they gave me actually started to work.

I agree it's a strength, in so much as it makes you resilient and resourceful, but it can also be a curse in that yourself and others assume you can cope with anything and everything. I now have to purposefully factor in rest time otherwise I'd not stop because my will to keep going has no cut off.

Hi everyone,

Haven't felt the need to post anything up in a long time but still always read this thread as i find it comforting to know there is other people with families like mine! But today for some reason I am feeling like shit and I feel sad that I don't have a loving family.

I think it is because my DD is a real daddy's girl and idolises my DP and he loves her so much and is proud of the beautiful little girl she is, I was a daddy's girl growing up until in my teens when he couldn't handle my teenage strops any longer and stopped speaking to me, that was 15 years ago and he still doesn't speak to me, it's not just me, he doesn't speak to my younger brother either for some stupid reason I actually don't even know why as when it happened I had left the family home.

As a result my self and my brother are the black sheep, my mother stays out of it all ( she blamed me when it happened) so everyone in my fucked up family all pretend it's normal and ok that me and my DB are ignored by DF. And before anyone asks why I didn't just talk to him or try fix things etc I tried when I was younger but I was ignored.

My Father is a immature manchild that got married too young ( my mother was pregnant with me so they had to marry) who had affairs on my mother and my mother used to love bitching to me about him but still would never leave him, I didn't get on with my mother when I was younger and have a strained relationship with her to this day.

But sometimes ( like today) I feel maybe it's me, maybe i deserved to be abandoned by my father my father has his golden children and my self and my brother were the scapegoats and I was always accused of being petty or jealous when I stood up for myself or my younger brother and I feel my whole extended family think that of me now still and that's why my father doesn't speak to me.

Sorry for the rant

Angelscare it's not you though is it? It's most definitely him. You say yourself that you were a Daddy's girl up to a certain point (so was I). Presumably he told you he loved you and you believed him. Then one day for no reason it flipped. You went from golden child to scapegoat. You did nothing to deserve his subsequent treatment of you. In fact he has shown you no love since.
I'm so sorry to say that he doesn't love you, he never did. Certainly not as much as you deserve. It's not that he won't. He can't. Because he cares only for himself. It's not your fault that he is so fundamentally flawed in this way. But it is still devastating and full of grief for you.

M is here. She's been going through police regarding her sexual abuse and is unhappy with part of what they now want to do. Obviously she's having a hard time but when it comes to this subject she is so difficult to deal with. Anything other than lamenting about how awful the world is to her is wrong. She was angry because when she was on the phone to the police officer she was upset and swearing and the police officer said "don't swear at me". I tried to stick up for the guy (mistake) saying how in my job as a social worker if someone was shouting and swearing on the phone I'd find it wearing, although I would be unlikely to say anything to the upset person in question. She responded well if you're that fragile you shouldn't do the job and I felt this like, hot annoyance run through me and I just said well it's not nice to be sworn at and she said, tellingly....

"While I'm going through this my feelings are so enormous I don't have space to be charitable to him"

Says it all really. She's sitting here now in silence with a miserable face, gazing at the floor in abject misery, sucking on her ecig, because of course she is going through so much she can't be expected to make an effort to seem normal even though she's with both her daughters and grandchildren grandchildren. She's having a hard time don't you know? She just doesn't have the energy to be normal of course. And what kind of person would expect her to even try?

Don't know why I'm posting I just want her to go but I can't say that because I'll be a totally heartless (not to mention selfish) bitch.

Soon there will be a big sigh and a "I need to go home, I need a lay down" as though I've been begging her to stay and really putting on her.

Lenl there's only 1 person in her world isnt there 💐

Oh god lenl, I'm getting flashbacks to my mother when my dad was ill. My mother is an infinite well of paranoia and would stop talking to me every time she recounted an incidence of a doc or nurse "being cheeky with her" and I failed to see what was cheeky about it. It was bloody exhausting.
Is she gone yet? I hope so!

Nora that doesn't sound petty to me (the coat comment) that sounds horrible. My M makes similarly cutting remarks about my appearance, usually in a way that's hard to pick her up on. She has also had phases of seeming to think she sort of owns my appearance. Buying my clothes etc. It does really hurt. I find it's worse because it's appearance - it feels like I'm being shallow. But it's not shallow, it's just nasty! How was the visit otherwise?

Hamptons I can relate to what you're going through and just want to say stay strong. And I want to reiterate what's been said before - mental health problems don't excuse behaviour. Particularly not that type of behaviour. I hope you're ok and getting support.

Tiggers fc pm me if you want to know/ talk more about dissociation :)

Hi everyone. Been ages since I've posted.

I have been grey rocking my family and have stopped chasing them. Consequently I barely ever speak to my siblings. There was a big family gathering a month or so ago which was really shit. I was invisible basically. A week later on the phone M asked what was wrong with me, I seemed really sad and like I didn't want the visit. Erm what.

Parents visited in the week. I thought it was a fantastic visit, I was on a high afterwards. When I calmed down and talked it through I realised there had actually been quite a few jibes. I think I got sucked in because it was just me with them which very rarely happens, and they were being warm with me.

Family circumstances have changed a bit and I think M is trying to fill a gap by being warm with me to get some drama from me or whatever. I find it really hard because I know it's never about me or my needs, it's about her. She isn't there for me when I need her, but when it suits her, she's suddenly interested, you know?

But then I feel really cruel because what if I'm wrong? What if she is lovely? And I'm just sensitive and harsh and awful? What if I've got it all wrong?

M said that the whole family have been comparing how long I take to text each of them back. (I used to be immediate and I used to chase them all, now I easily leave it a few days.) Apparently they all thought that I was in a mood with them. I laughed it off at the time but it's bugged me ever since. Because I was absolutely right. They were all talking about me, they were excluding me, they were all deciding that I was "in a mood" with them. But having decided that - not one of them spoke to me about it!!!

So that's where I'm at with them really.

Also we have an opportunity to move somewhere that would significantly improve our quality of life. But it's hours away from my parents. This is not allowed in my family basically. Me and DH have always based our decisions about where we live around where they live. For the first time I'm feeling more liberated to make the decision based on us as the priority but it's terrifying too. I know it'll be a threshold, I know I'll be even more excluded, I know it'll cause bad feeling, I know I'll barely see them all. And even though I know that the majority of their visits now are unpleasant in various ways, and even though I know that they constantly exclude me, it still really really hurts to think about excluding myself and being even more left out. I also feel the weight of the FOG making me feel I can't/ shouldn't.

Any advice?

Thanks all. This thread and you all are so important to me!

Sorry that was really long!

toomuch and nora thanks.. I will look up a bit more info on dissociation. chest thank you.

I do have a lot of habits that might be classed as 'zoning out', I get lost in them for long periods. Eating, TV watching, online stuff, staring into space, shopping.

Chest do it do it do it! (I mean the move )

You sound like you are right in the fog - you've distanced yourself a little and so your mother is making nice because she misses having someone to treat badly who will try and smooth things over the whole time. You kind of suspect that but because she's being pleasant and because you're nice and want to have a good relationship with your parents you want to believe it but as soon as you're back in the fold you'll regain your old role, with perhaps an extra punishment for stepping out of line.

But in any case, you could look at it this way. Loving families will be sad about you moving away but they won't try to manipulate you into staying, they'll be happy for you that you have this opportunity and they'll do their best to make it easy to stay in touch. So go ahead. If they're nice, they'll make it work. If they make endless shite and go off in a huff, then you know they've not changed.

FML today I find out that someone has mentioned to Voldemort that I am moving in with my fella and that I am buying a puppy and she has seen my son today and gone batshit at him for it. I mean FFS. We are NC for a reason, and she goes batshit in public. If there was ever a moment when I felt glad to go NC, it is today.

Chest My M does the same to me, as in there are times that I feel like the visit has gone really well but afterwards I realise it was peppered with jibes. I don't know about you but it totally throws me because I have no idea how she manages it, it's almost an art form. Honestly, if you met my mum the first impression I think you'd have is that she's nothing special and even maybe a bit dim, but the stunts she pulls are incredibly layered, almost sophisticated. I too often wonder if I'm imagining things and I've got it all wrong but her being a N is the only thing that has ever ever made any sense.

About the move, do it! Do it X 100. I'd move away if I had the opportunity, it's the best excuse to cut ties and as the added bonus of being pretty much guilt free.

As for the rest of my visit, it was okay I think. I don't recall much. It was her birthday so I gave her a gift and an awkward unreciprocated peck on the cheek, I fawned over her in an almost apologetic way as I explained why I had got her what I'd got her... she nodded along but i sensed she was quite disinterested. She did thank me, I think, for the gift but she's not known for being especially grateful so it's hard to tell if I did okay or not.

I'm ok. Sort of. Luckily I have a fantastic husband and kids.

I am torn between the fact I ring my DPs to give them something else (nice) in their life in the form of the grandchildren. I understand it's incredibly hard for them. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

But I cannot help that the relationship between me and my brother is effectively over. I don't care about the MH issues. I care that he's a potential threat to my children, and the damage that having him around does to my parents and the relationships in the rest of the family.

I can foresee my brother living with them forever. Which means my relationship and those of my other siblings will inevitably be messed up.

And I can't go NC with him whilst my parents are still dealing with it all.

So I'm treading water. Worrying about my parents. Worrying about the future. Because I'm the good girl who fixes everyone's problems.

When actually I feel spectacularly sad. My whole family is utterly f*cked up, and I can't fix anything. I just want a magic wand to wave and get rid of it all.

But for now I've just got to plod on and just bat the sh*t away as it gets flung.

A question if anyone knows.

Am reading through 'Toxic Parents' and got to section 13, the bit about why you should confront your parents.

Does this still apply if you are NC with them? - the book seems very insistent that this is part of the process, and you can't get out of it by saying 'they won't listen'.

I have been NC with DF for 3 years, IMHO he is psychologically abusive, though also hurt from his own upbringing - but I don't want him anywhere near my DD. DM I was in touch with but she seems to be ignoring me for the last 3 months though we live a few streets away - probably a punishment. In DM's case I sat her down to say a lot of things less than a year ago after being NC for a long time. DD is asking to see her GM so this one is more difficult as she is too young to understand.

Would anyone on here (or do you think a therapist would) say - no, you absolutely must go and confront them now, somehow?

I feel like I can't be arsed, to do it or with the drama it might well cause in my life and DD's for some time to come. But recognise that could be me doing the flight/freeze thing somehow?

It's a difficult one which I have also wrestled with. I read somewhere that you can write it all down in a letter which you never send. That could be cathartic.
You don't want to invite further contact/confrontation 💐