"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hen

Also she was not a good parent to you and she is a crap example of a grandparent to your children. They also need to be protected from such a malign influence like your mother.

Toxic dysfunction can and does go down the generations (you've seen this with your mother and her mother. Infact its more than likely that your grandmother's parents treated her abusively as well) but it has stopped with you because you would not treat your children like you were treated by your own mother. Your mother trained you from soon after birth really to put her first and serve her. But you are your own person and not an extension of what she sees to be her own perfect self.

Shit hit fan here a bit.

Siblings and me are definitely going nc with brother. Found out his charges and I feel physically sick. I don't care about his MH issues, it's beyond the pale.

I've not rung my parents. I'm not sure I know what to say to them.

GP was fantastic and has referred me

@badtasteflump I know what you mean about feeling a bit sad about the lack of contact or effort from them. I think in my case it's grief because it makes me realise my darkest thoughts about my relationship with my m is true. I don't think I am important as her child but only as the rescuer to her "victim". It's a bleak realisation that there is no hope.

@TheHamptons something similar in my story. I know that feeling in your stomach and the damage it has to everyone.

foxrun I think you hit the nail on the head about it being grief. I suppose a little bit of me still always hopes that my m does care really, and when it comes to the crunch she'll prove me wrong about her. But the crunch has actually been and gone god knows how many times.

I've been feeling ok lately but the last few days I've been ruminating about it over and over. I think it's because I've got my first counselling session coming up soon.

@badtasteflump my therapist suggested I still hoped, which I think do and is completely natural. What makes me sad is the realisation that my hope is not realistic and for my own wellbeing I need to let that go.

That grief for the parent you deserve but don't have - horrible as it is, it's part of the healing process. We should have felt that grief and sadness when we were small if we hadn't been conditioned to see our parents as perfect. We have to feel it now instead, to get better.

to everyone.

Has anyone ever used an online counseling service? Any recommendations or reviews? I'm thinking of going down this route and just wondered if anyone has any thoughts on this?
Please feel free to PM me or reply on here. Whatever suits you.
I've had a challenging life with my mother (sociopath I believe) and father (just a difficult git at times). Now 57 and have recently gone NC due to my mother's very unreasonable and spiteful behavior and this time I'm not stepping back into the fray as I always have done. It's been 6 weeks since any contact, her words and actions have finally destroyed me. But I must take responsibility for keeping the relationship going by trying to do the right thing and be caring and constant in her life.
I now know I've done that because that is how she 'trained' me. Should have gone NC 15 years ago....at least.
The last 15 years have been the worst....and I'm 57! What a waste of my life spent being unhappy, guilty and just not understanding.
Hiding the dirty secret of life with mum.
So back to the beginning.....info on online counseling. Can you advise me?
Thanks

There are lots of counsellors who will talk via Skype etc.

I have got in touch with one, yet to have a session though.

I'm still torn. My parents are trying to minimalise what brother has done, scapegoating the mental health issues. I can't get to that point yet.

Apparently brother is suicidal again though. It just heaps more stress on.

@TheHamptons hope everything is alright?

I stupidly took a FT call from my dad, who then shouted for my mum. It was so panic inducing, I should never have accepted the call. I stupidly presumed it could have just been my dad who I could have had an okay conversation with. It felt so invasive, hence why I have blocked some numbers now.
I am pretty cross that I got ambushed like that by my dad. I would have hoped he may have thought hmm hen is having a bit of a time with her M, she probably needs a bit of time. But nope. Perhaps she instructed him to contact me believing that I would answer to him...
I am recognising this more and more of enabling behaviour; anything to keep an easy life. I'm disappointed with my dad I suppose. :(

Suffered severe anxiety yesterday. Everything coming to a crescendo next week got on top of me. I know this is what I need to do but wow I'm up and down anxiety wise.

Hardest thing will be the separation from the kids for a while.

grazie I did skype sessions with a therapist. It's not bad, but I think you probably get better results if you're in the room with the person. To do with being in the physical presence of someone who's in tune with you. I think it's a very "monkey brain" sort of thing. if that makes sense?

hen don't beat yourself up for expecting more caring behaviour off your dad than he was able to give you.You weren't stupid, you were just hoping for better. I'm sorry to hear that you were put in that situation.

pulling are you OK? Do you want to talk to us about it?

Feel better after a good nights sleep. Thankfully still nc with voldemort otherwise I think I'd be worse.

I think selling a house, buying a house, starting a new job, moving 175 miles and having to leave the kids and dog behind with ex for a while just hit me hard. Probably because it's now less than a week before I move, and I will literally be on my own for the first time in 16 years. I know that it's for the benefit of the kids and I but it's hard.

I didn't realise your children were staying behind. They are coming to join you later? It sounds like a good plan though, sorting everything out yourself beforehand.

NC with dysfunctional parents is ideal in these moments. I went NC with my mother during a similar big upheaval in our lives. They just see it as an opportunity to attack while your mind is on other things.

Yes, they will follow as soon as the sale of my place and purchase of another goes through. I would have taken them with me but I am sofa surfing until that happens so not really possible unfortunately. Plus I'd have to change their schooling more than once, and thats not fair on them.

It was my birthday yesterday I haven't spoken to my mother for a year. I decided to go nc because she shows no interest in my 4 children. She never wants to see them even though its door to door pick up. When I had my son two years ago my mum decides to be a bitch on the phone to me and talk shit about my partner. I have been with him for 15 years and then at that moment she decides to have an issue. She didn't even give a good reason for it.

Anyway yesterday was my birthday my mother sends me a card and in it she tells me to call her because she has cancer. She didn't write it in a letter telling me all about it instead she wrote in my birthday card Mum I have cancer give me a call. My mother has given me no support over the years and now she wants my support. I'm so pissed she wrote it in my card rather than a letter explaining it is that what normal people do?.

I don't even know if she is telling me the truth or not. Don't people tell you what cancer it is. I don't want to talk to her.

Hi HorridHenry

I'm no expert - other in that I too am NC with my M. My thoughts on reading your posts are that firstly that's really shitty behaviour from her. If it's true, she didn't have to tell you on your birthday. Writing it in your birthday card is at best thoughtless but actually seems pretty twisted imo.

The fact that you suspect she may be making it up speaks volumes, I think. If you can't even trust her to tell the truth about something so important, I don't think calling her is going to do you any good. My M has used illness to reel people in before, suggesting she's 'having tests' and that 'the doctor is very concerned' in the past. But then when I've questioned her about it she gets all vague and dramatic and shuts the conversation down by going off in a strop. I've actually been expecting her 'messengers' to tell me she has some kind of illness since I went NC, but it's not happened (yet).

Anyway for that reason I've thought about that scenario a lot. And I believe that if you have had to go NC for the sake of your own health, your M's illness is no reason to change that. You are under no obligation to be her source of support now - she certainly hasn't supported you in the past so you cannot be expected to step up for her. I think for now at least you do nothing. In my experience illness doesn't turn toxic people into better people - it just gives them another stick to beat you with.

Anyway, sorry you're going through this, and I hope she didn't manage to completely screw up your birthday

I've really cut back on contact with my M. Weve gone from 2 to 3 times a week to once a week for 40 minutes in a 'neutral' place (cafe). I quite often also skip a week, or two. I sometimes think that amount is just about okay, but other times I feel even that is too much. I also try not to be alone with her, she arrives with my dad in tow.

Today though, rather than sit at the usual table and wait for me to get served at the counter and bring my drink over, she got up from her seat to join me at the counter. I'd just finished work so I was dressed quite smart (that's important). She sidled right up to me, didn't say hello, how are you or anything, just whispered 'Where have you dug that up from?' as she nodded at my coat. I must be so used to receiving put downs that I answered, oh, I've had it a while, to which she snarled 'yes, that's what I meant'.

She wasn't joking (she has no sense of humour) but I must be so used to her speaking to me like that that it didn't even occur to me until later that it's actually a pretty rude way to greet someone, let alone your only daughter. I don't care what anyone thinks of my coat, it's just a coat so what, but I'm feeling really down about the way she said it and the way she went about it. It's really shallow, there was no need, and I actually think if it wasn't the coat it would have been something else, anything to put me down.

What makes it worse is last time I saw her she was griping and being a drama queen because someone she'd not seen for ages had commented on her weight, so you'd think having experienced a recent negative comment she'd be less likely to go dishing them out.

I know it sounds like a load of fuss about nothing and I honestly don't care what she thinks about my coat, I like it, it suits me, it's just I know you in here will get what I mean, it's not just about the coat is it?

I'm not sure what you mean Henry. x

I've got a son, he's in his 20's and my M tries to pry about what he's up to through me but I stopped telling her things when I realised she was fishing only for things to to support her angle/belief that he's 'greedy' and 'lazy'. With me (and all other females) it's generally digs about looks (hair, clothes, skin, weight etc). Whoever she talks about she mainly plants seeds of doubt, says things that arnt that obviously cruel and sometimes even disguised as concern but they play on your mind, but also she can also be quite cutting.

It's like, im not affected by her opinion on specifics, it just hurts that she says these things at all. Not sure if I imagine this but when she does deliver a cutting remark it feels rehearsed if that makes sense. She isn't, or doesn't appear to be sharp in wit, generally she is a gatherer of information then she'll stew on it then she'll opinion weeks later. So when she does deliver a well placed cutting remark it feels like she's been practising it in her mind. I have no proof of that, it's just a weird feeling I have, but that adds to the hurt because what must she feel about us to do that.

Nora is she putting everyone else down in order to make herself feel superior, do you think? It must feel horrible, and yes, not really about the coat, more about putting you in your place.

My M has invited herself to my aunt's for Christmas. This is great news for us, because it was our turn (it alternates between us and DSis) to see her in some way at Christmas (and for that reason I usually dread Christmas). But she hasn't bothered to tell us! I only heard via DSis! I'm so happy about it though, and feel so liberated, that I don't really care that she's playing games.

Nora not a small thing at all. It seems to me that she went out of her way (literally) to hurt you for her own amusement. I would reduce the amount you see her. She is your mother in name only.

I've been doing hypnotherapy to fix my poor relationship with food. This week at the 4th session she tried to get me to link back to my childhood (smaller portions). I broke down. I couldn't find a positive memory. I felt utterly powerless. I was not surprised but I was shocked if you can understand that. Shocked at the strength of my reaction to something that is so long ago & I thought I understood.
What shocks me I think is the depth of damage done to a child by 'only' emotional abuse and manipulation. And the far reaching repercussions. By a narcissist and an enabling emotionally absent mother.
The most shocking thing is that they will never understand how they have utterly failed me.

A bit of a rant please

My brother put in a lot of time with our aged parents over August. Several times he called me to talk things over. His newish girlfriend overheard us saying stuff that sounded really harsh to her. She then broke off with him on the grounds that he isn't nice to his mother.

Of course, the only reason she heard words like "lies" "bitch" "control" "don't trust her" etc are because we have to keep helping each other find ways to get care in place and do our duty without slipping back under her control.
We say them to each other so we don't have to say them to her/upset dad.

Talk about injustice. Most children would be nc whereas we each pull our weight.....

I feel bad for my brother.... as if we hadn't been damaged enough...