"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's August 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - Aug 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Whats one year to have a new experience that I couldn't possibly give them. Its an adventure to the kids I have already finished 1 year with my eldest and she loved it. I think she is jealous of her younger sister going but she is happy to be home and in a school closer to home. My eldest has come back more mature and helpful. Her personality is shining more now. It definitely takes a village to bring up one child not two parents. My family were vexed with me when I told them more venom and hate towards me. My uncle said how many is that to a class then like he gives a fuck about my kids.

TheHamptons

You could look into a bursary for your children and compare all private schools and see who offers the best discount. I put them in a boarding state school and they are fantastic. Teachers in the boarding house were brilliant. What they done for my eldest she was so quiet before. Now my next child will spend a year fingers crossed or maybe two its not forever. If your kids are young enough you could get them into music lessons that looks good to schools.

Apologies if this has been asked before, but - has anyone read both the CPTSD book, and Tao of Fully Feeling book by Pete Walker - and if so, would you recommend both books? I'm reading the CPSTD one, finding it very helpful, and in it he drops lots of hints about the benefits of the other one. Is it worth it? - just checked and it costs about £11 on Amazon 9I haven't got a Kindle and like to highlight books anyway).

Also, a question about the way he talks about families. He says a lot about parental treatment e.g. contempt. But not much about other family members. I think I have flashback type issues about both my parents for different reasons. But also possibly my sister. She was the golden child, I was frequently compared unfavourably to her, and she would be allowed to humiliate/reject me without consequences e.g. as a young child, we would go to visit a family with other girls, she would whisper in their ears and suddenly I wouldn't be accepted as a playmate. Would just see her smirk. I would go and tell my mother who would act irritated, tell me I must have done something unacceptable, and make me sit in the corner alone while she and adults talked. This continued into my teens, where my sister became a popular girl in school (though I've learned since quite a bully to some people), and I always felt weird, isolated, unacceptable. In all areas of my life really. Is this pretty standard for sibling relationships in dysfunctional families, or is there another book that describes sibling dynamics?

Thinking about it, it's kind of ongoing - my mother acts as constant on-call childcare provider to my sister, drops everything in an instant when she calls with a request. Any time I ask for something she has plans, is busy, I'm intruding. It probably sounds like I'm exaggerating but honestly this is more or less the way it is.

Thanks all x

Let's replace parenting with boarding school. Sorted.

Tigger I've got the Tao book. I'm afraid I found it a bit wordy and haven't got very far with it. If only this wasn't a virtual forum and I could pass it on to you!

I have found all of his stuff online to be enormously useful. I think it's just the writing style of that book that I don't get on with, not necessarily the content.

Your description of the golden child/scapegoat sibling relationships sounds fairly typical of that dynamic to me. From personal experience I'd say in some ways it's easier to be the scapegoat, at least once you're an adult - you're not so enmeshed with your parent so it's kind of easier to escape, and to see what's really going on.

Thanks Spare - if only!

My sibling dynamic seems a bit different to the way the golden child is often described. My DSis seems to totally mock DM, use her for childcare, is utterly ruthless, and has trained her own DC to treat DM in much the same way. Only DM (who is an extreme codependent, fawn type from reading Pete Walker) doesn't even see it - or doesn't want to see it. So they can all be utter b*stards to her. Whereas I'm somehow wrong and DM couldn't give two hoots about DD.

I find myself wishing sometimes that I could be as ruthless as DSis is. It's not in my nature, I don't think I could pull it off even if I tried. I just don't have the stomach to deliver gut-punching insults to people in a light sweet tone, or turn icy cold on them in a second if they don't do what I want. I will willingly say she frightens me, and I think always has done, because she is just such an able manipulator of people. She also looks perfect, and I"m the ugly frumpy one (we are similar ages). Depressing.

I wish I could give less of a f*ck like my DS and older DB do. Both are able to speak their minds, and have enough confidence to do so.

I say nothing and inwardly seethe or rage or hide and cry because I try to avoid conflict.

tiggers I've got the Tao book and I didn't feel like it added much on top of his CPTSD book. He wrote the CPTSD one after the Tao one, and I think of it as the definitive one, at least for people like us.

Regarding your mum, Grannon and I think also Pete Walker have said that NPD is closely related to CPTSD and also that NPD is a sort of codependency. NPDs see the world as a totem pole - there are no relationships between equals, everyone's either above or below everyone else. And with parents and children, you expect the kids always to be lower on the totem pole but I think with your mum it sounds like she considers your sister to be above her? So she takes all the bad behaviour off your sister in the same way as she probably did originally with whoever it was in her own childhood who made her this way... but you for whatever reason she read as "inferior" (do you look like her? Resemble her in other ways?) so you get dumped on. I think you're of course exactly right not to want to copy your sister's behaviour but the "problem" is that when you try to relate to your mother healthily, her model of relationships is master and servant, so if you're not being the master...

Hamptons you're not your DB or DS, and you don't need to be. It sounds as though, as a child, you were often expected to be the peacekeeper, the one who managed - you had to take care of other people's feelings. You're still doing it now. You're saying to yourself, if only I could manage not to have emotions about this situation, nothing would need to change about the way your family interacts with you. But even if that were healthy (you shouldn't have to be someone you're not) it's probably not possible, because your family would rebel if you started to act differently. Why is Hampton so cold and uncaring all of a sudden? Why won't she get back in her box and start pouring oil on troubled waters, like she usually does?

Thanks toomuch - that is astonishingly insightful! Am I like her.. she has my whole like said that I am like my father and used 'daddy's girl' as an insult (my father was very psychologically abusive and left when we were small) - but, actually I kind of think I have more of her traits and DSis has more of DF's traits (the ruthlessness, icy coldness etc). So she sees me as herself?

When I was a child, I was never allowed to display emotions or argue back, I 'had' to be below her I suppose, or would be punished. DSis as a child was already too clever to be outright rebellious, was much more of a quiet/manipulative type, knew which buttons to press from an early age. The way you have described it, about the totem pole - that is very helpful.

Hi everyone.
In need of some advice and a bit of a handhold really.
I'm experiencing a lot of emotions since I got some things off my chest to my M. They've been met with complete denial and excuses and buttering up compliments.
I received a letter telling me how upset she is, how they all are and unfortunately I can't process the compliments now as sincere.
As I would expect from someone with narc tendencies there is no apology because they don't believe they have done anything wrong.
I feel it is her word against mine and I worry that I will be painted as a terrible daughter because all of this will be expressed as surprise. I expect there is much hand wringing and circular conversations as other family members reassure her that she hasn't done anything wrong.
I can't go into too much detail as it would be potentially outing.
I feel so emotionally disengaged from her I'm not sure what, of anything I can do to resolve it. What would I like to happen, I'm not even sure anymore. I do Grey Rock but it's difficult with FaceTime and they expect to see your face.
Also, how to I deal with other family members who will try to find out what's going on but then feed back to her? Are there any stock phrases I should learn? Talking about it still really upsets me. I scribbled out my emotions on three sides of paper yesterday and I just felt so so angry. Is this normal?
Sorry for the essay.

Hi Take - sorry to hear you're feeling so crap

I have no expert advice really but have been through similar (and am still going through it, really).

I think the thing I found most helpful was to realise that when your M is a narc, there is absolutely no point in trying to deal with the issues with them, ie confronting them, getting it off your chest, trying to discuss it, etc. If you do, it will do nothing but frustrate and upset you because she will never, ever accept that she's done anything wrong or apologise.

Yes you need help to deal with it all, but the last person who will ever help you with it is your M - and also probably not anybody else connected with her either.

Talk to friends and family you can trust - ie any who are not close to her. Think about counselling too. I also found that reading up on the subject of being the daughter of a narc M helped me, because so much of it resonated with me and made me realise it wasn't my fault.

It's definitely completely normal to feel so angry - I would sometimes feel absolute rage like I never had before at the injustice of it all - and still do sometimes. If you are anything like me, you will have been taught to suppress your emotions and keep it all in, so feeling such raw emotion can be a shock - but it needs to come out so try to just let it surface, see it for what it is and ride it out, if that makes sense?

I have also found writing it all down helps a lot - a lot of books on the subject suggest that exact thing, so that's all good too.

You say you don't know what you want to happen now, and that's fine. You are not on a time limit - you can take your time and see how you feel in one month, three months, six months, whatever. You don't have do to anything (with regards to your mother) in the mean time. If you want a break from her, that's perfectly fine and completely your decision.

As for other family members (ie Flying Monkeys if you've come across the phrase), I have used the stock phrase 'there is clearly a lot about the situation you don't know so I would rather not discuss it for now'. I have found absolutely no good comes from trying to tell close family (ie close to her as well as you) your 'side' of it and trying to get them on board, or even to try and help them see her for what she really is. People see what they want to see, for all sorts of reasons - and they are probably just as screwed up by her behaviour as you are in their own way.

You can save yourself and yours (ie your DC), but that's it - and that alone is definitely worth doing

I struggled, still do, with the same things as you hen. It's not in me to be awkward or insincere or to say things I don't mean so I found grey rocking and my new instantaneous reactions to things my M said to be pretty difficult. I think the turning point came when I'd had a nice long break from seeing her and I'd also realised around the same time that my historic reactions perhaps weren't as authentic as I thought they were. Yes I have been nice and helpful and complimentary, an all round good girl, but how much of that was 'training' I don't know but I'm guessing quite a lot.

A few months prior to me wakening up my M was crying (acting) and complaining that in the whole of her life no one had ever said that they like her shoes. It sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Despite my conditioning I even knew it sounded ridiculous but what did I do within a fortnight of her saying that.... yup, I told her I loved her shoes! Even as the words were coming out of my mouth I knew I didn't mean it. And there was I, thinking I only ever spoke the truth. I didn't really like myself for doing that and I questioned how many other times I'd been set up to think, say or feel things. There was no going back for me after that.

I still do grey rocking, I stick to talking about neutral stuff, I never ever tell her about any other person whether family or friend or money in any shape or form. I talk about DIY, TV, the news, food. I'm also limiting contact as much as I can. I've decided that if worst comes to the worst I'm happy for her to pass me off as losing my marbles rather than continue dancing to her tune. It also helps to unload your feelings somewhere safe, I tell my OH some stuff but not all because whilst he cares he doesn't understand, and I unload here because here you're totally understood.

Thank you @BadTasteFlump. You make a lot of sense.
I have been reading some content online, but sometimes my experience pales against others and I am left feeling like am I being fraudulent. The amount of self-doubt that my M causes me does result in invasive thoughts telling me I'm making it up. I hear that is isn't unusual too. It is all FOG. It could also be because I know my M probably feels like it is all made up.
She is a daughter of a narcissistic mother herself and I want to break the cycle.

Thanks for the tip about counselling, I'm wondering more and more about going for it.

The letter, to me anyway, reads as "I'm upset and I do my best, I have things going on in my life , goes on to compliment me then says I hope you can talk to me about it."
So, I think that leaves me in the position of either getting in touch or not. She has asked for forgiveness, in fact immediately and it looked like she just expected it on the spot.

I can't talk to her about it, she will not get it whatsoever. Yes, I'd be getting it off my chest but I'm doubtful I'd be receiving any kind of closure because if she says it never happened, it hasn't. I can't reason with unreasonable people.

What the heck do I say to her?

Nora, thank you.
Grey rocking still feels alien to me because it feels rude and unkind as I even do it. It isn't helped when I am asked every time if there is any news, as there usually isn't any. I've learnt it is actually a request for any juicy bit of gossip. So, it is likely that my tone of conversation has changed - as well as wanting to be off screen on skype etc.

How bizarre about tears over shoes. At least you realised that you were just telling her what she wanted to hear. So many people do this to keep an easy life. I don't know how my relationship stands with my M now, it won't go back to how it was pre-kids (everything amped up as soon as I had my first child) and it seems to be expected that we'll chat about it, I'll have to say sorry, then we all laugh then sweep it under the carpet. I don't think I can do that. If she turns into her mother and believe me its happening/happened, I can't be doing with it for my own mental health and my children's.

Why is fault directed at the victim whilst they play the woe is me game?

Take what would happen if you do nothing for now (with regards to contacting your mother).

If you don't know what to say I would say nothing. Give yourself a break and time to process everything that's going on in your head. For me the lack of boundaries was a big issue - there were literally none for me with my M, physically or emotionally - she believed she has the right to let herself into my house at any time and take over whatever's going on - and that she had the right to know every little thing in my life. Initially the thought of giving myself a break from her was terrifying - I just didn't think she would ever 'let' me. A few months on, that thought already seems ridiculous - because I am entitled to have some boundaries, physical and emotional - and it's down to me to put them there, not for her to 'let' me, if that makes sense.

And yes you're right that just about everybody on here starts posting by saying 'my experiences weren't as bad as everybody else's..' so try to put that thought aside if you can.

As a starting point I found 'The Peaceful Daughter's Guide to Separating from a Difficult Mother' really helpful. I also liked 'Will I ever be good enough'. Also have you looked at the 'out of the fog' website? I found that a good one for dipping in and out of with specific problems (how do I deal with this situation, what do I say, etc..).

And keep posting on here - I've found that probably the most helpful thing overall

I loved the peaceful daughter too, especially the stuff about stepping out of the victim triangle. I found that really helpful for conflict situations.

I'm a massive fan of grey rock in theory. But it made my parents escalate massively. They hounded my DH and I for months over 'what was wrong' when I stopped rising to the bait with them.

It was like they could smell blood. Quite scary.

If your narc is of the disinterested type, however, I could imagine it would work well.

Mrs I tried the grey rock thing but it didn't work for me either. It was as if my M sensed me backing off instantly and stepped up the intrusion and rudeness to a ridiculous level - I absolutely know what you mean about it being as if she could smell blood...

At least it brought things to a head though, meaning they were so bad I could no longer bury my head in the sand and was forced to deal with it.

Badtaste, yes, that's exactly what happened with me!

My therapist encouraged me to try transactional analysis techniques - as I always used to respond with my stroppy teenager act when they upset me.

As soon as I stopped responding to their button pushing and behaved like an adult they went for me. They loved making me the butt of their jokes, and when their jokes fell flat it really set them off.

It also brought things to a head for me. I've not called them out on everything they've done wrong (in bullet point form) and told them I only want to hear from them if it's a response to the points I've raised.

They're now ignoring me.

Aaaaaaah, the peace is lovely.

Sorry, should say I've now called them out.

Aaaaaaah, the peace is lovely

Yes I'm with you on that

My problem now is that as much as I am enjoying the peace (and the privacy - no small thing), I still struggle with feeling angry and hurt that my M can drop me - and my DC - so easily. It's kind of embarrassing to admit, but as much as I don't want her in my life, or the lives of my DC, I want her to want to see us. It's like she's proving how irrelevant we are to her, and that hurts. But I'm starting counselling soon so that's something I hope I can be helped with.

BadTaste, it's weird, because I'm almost the exact opposite of you.

I'm desperate to get out of their clutches but they won't leave me alone. However, I have a friend in a similar situation to you and I see how much it hurts her that her mother doesn't care.

I've read (possibly it was in 'it's not you..') that narcs are either ignoring (which sounds like yours) or engulfing (which sounds like mine).

I'm desperate to get their toxic claws out of my life because they are so engulfing. But I'm sure I'd feel just like you do in your shoes. It's so funny how they headfuck in different ways!

Certainly is!

Funny thing with me is I always thought of her as 'engulfing' (because of behaviour like letting herself into my house, always assuming she was included in everything, holidays, parties, etc, whether I wanted her to be or not.... always calling me) but as soon as I stood up to her she switched and is now well and truly ignoring. I think it makes it easier for her to do so as she has practically moved into my Dsis's house - and DSis has younger children than mine, so they are much more adoring towards her. Mine are teens now so started avoiding her a long time ago....

Most of the time I do genuinely love the quiet and the privacy of knowing she won't keep letting herself into my house randomly (whether or not I'm even there). But it also hurts that we're clearly so unimportant to her - I wish it didn't. But it's all still quite recent so maybe I just need to give it time.

Sorry, i've only just discovered this thread, I don't want to interrupt an ongoing conversation.

I've been reading it all afternoon - I can relate so much i could cry!

I have just started to go to therapy for various reasons and never before had i questioned that my upbringing/family might be to blame for my anxiety and issues.

I have always been the 'good' child and my sibling has always caused my family trouble. however they absolutely dote on them and they can do nothing wrong. I've always done well in school, work, have lots of friends and generally am very self sufficient. This is not good enough. I have never been praised and my achievements are always downplayed. My sibling on the other hand can do whatever they want (including getting into serious debt) and not a bad word is said.

I got married a couple of years ago, I was told by my mother every member of the wedding party had to congratulate my sibling on helping organise the wedding and they were given a present on my wedding day so they weren't left out. My sibling does not have a partner or close friends, I have struggled to get pregnant after the wedding and I secretly think my parents are glad as a pregnancy would once again take the attention off my sibling.

Sorry for the rant.

I think I'm going write down some things and send it. Just for clarity.
I'm not expecting an apology and I'm not going to engage in an argument. Here's hoping!
If the outcome of this is that my M is even more offended she may not want to contact me anyway and give me the cold shoulder. So be it.
I will try to rebuild things with her (if at all possible, I'm yet to find out) but on my own terms.
I feel so emotionally unattached to her though so I'm not sure what I can do about that and that's an awful conflicted feeling as we are conditioned to love our mothers and always please our mothers because "they are your mother".

@Ella, I can relate. I feel like I can't do anything to please my M. It's sad :(

Hi Hen

I would write it all down and not send it. Sending it will simply open a can of worms and will also put your mother immediately on attack mode perhaps invoking her rage. No good at all will come of sending such a letter and doing that simply gives her an "in" to contact you and bother you even more. Toxic people as you know anyway never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Re your comment:-

"I will try to rebuild things with her (if at all possible, I'm yet to find out) but on my own terms. "

That may well also be your FOG talking here. Ultimately you will not be able to rebuild because all this was built on shifting sands anyway. She will never co-operate to make a better relationship with you. Your terms will never ever be acceptable at all to her; its her way or no way as far as she is concerned.

You will not become your mother because you know this treatment of you at her hands is wrong. Also you have two qualities that this lady and her own mother sadly lacked; empathy and insight. I cannot stress enough the lack of empathy that narcissists have. Your mother took the low road and instead parented you like her own mother did to her.

I would recommend you read the resources at the start of this thread; Toxic Parents is itself a good starting point. Would also suggest you read the "Daughters of Narcissistic mothers" website.