Men who are not getting enough satisfying sex

[PacificDogwod]

What happens to them?!
Do they explode or something??

WTAF gives them the right to pressurise their partners for sex or humiliate them or 'threaten' to go elsewhere??

What happens to women who are not getting enough satisfying sex?
Just suck it up as long as you are satisfying yer man?

There are FAR too many threads about this 'problem' currently and I am putting my stance on this in this one to save me repeating myself: Fuck that for a game of soldiers!

I totally get that there can be a mismatch in sexual desire in a couple and that IS a problem, but how it should be addressed is surely not by abuse and humiliation and pressure??

For the record: NOTHING happens to men who are not ejaculating as often as they might think they'd like. And anyway, surely that's what the shower or an old sock is for?!

Guys, up yer game.

Women, get angry

AnyFucker

Yeah because I don't deep down (behind all the feminist icing) believe that sex is something women gift to men and that men only get sex when they are good. I don't advocate for nonsense ideas about sex that have no basis in science, psychology or healthy relationships.

You (and the OP) actually agree with patriarchy that sex is just something that men want from women. You just believe that women have the right to not give it. That they should make men "earn" it. Your view of women's sexuality is fundamentally passive except as leverage. Ironing -> sex.

I disagree. I believe that sex will only be de-weaponized when everyone (men and women) stop seeing it as something that is in women's domain to give. When people see their sexuality as something that is theirs and is not about dominating or controlling other people. That goes for people who withhold sex for power as well.

But there's a conflict and this is why MN is so hypocritical on this issue. The reality is that many women in unequal relationships use sex, and societal views on sex, as a coping mechanism to try and equalize their terrible relationships with their useless husbands. They can't get "DH" to do anything except without waving sex as a reward. Because sexist men are conditioned to believe that "women don't really like sex", it actually works better than many other things. So they need to keep championing the belief that ironing -> sex. They need to continue to push the idea that sex is a reward given to good men, instead of a mutual reciprocal fulfillment of desires. And they rely on the societal belief that women don't like sex to keep men from leaving. Women stick in crappy relationships only due to societal conditioning that they should be responsible for the emotional labor of a relationship. Men don't feel that same pressure. Without the belief that "women don't like sex", many more men would leave sexless relationships.

So there's a catch-22. Do you continue to push a fundamentally patriarchal/backwards view on sex in order to maximize women's short term leverage, or do you tell the truth to try and change broader views about sex in the long run even if some women now are hurt?

I think you're choosing the former. I choose the latter.

That's a very long post, rolo

Have you any theories on why some women feel the only power they can wield in a relationship is a sexual one ?

AF - are you suggesting that it is a legitimate thing to do to 'withhold' sex or affection or love in order to control a partner's behaviour? Or that layers of patriarchal history produce shitty behaviour by men and women?
I think the problem for this whole thread (of which I am part) is what is the central issue for discussion.
I think there is too much here to focus on anything.
But my issue with all the above is that DWs can stop wanting sex with 'good' DHs. That can be when shitty behaviour starts (making them turn to bad DHs who are making it worse). And then they are divided into the bad DHs with sexist attitudes to women's sexuality and bad DHs who are just bad at communicating their hurt - and all varieties in between.
My tentative suggestion is that maybe the vulnerability of men makes them behave badly regardless of whether there are sexist ideas clouding their attitudes that make it ten times worse.

PookieD0
I'm not even disagreeing with you about education but you are entirely focused on women dragging themselves out of the clutches of these terrible men by going to university and getting good jobs

No, I'm not focusing entirely on that. I may be here, because I actually work and have more to do than spend times arguing on MN. The point I made was that if women cannot support themselves financially they are often more inclined to remain in an abusive relationship.
No one is discriminating here . You made the point that in your family there was abuse and issues around religion as a means of controlling women. That's not discrimination, it's fact. You brought it up.

ThanksMsMay as above, I work. I have been at work and can't afford time to post ad nauseum. If you want to read about diversity in the workplace, read the reports. I agree with them, but I don't have the time to write a thesis for you here.

Nigella Lawson was pretty well educated, wasn't she? And fairly solvent, from what I understand?

Exactly. Any woman can be in an abusive relationship. But the point is, once things reached a point of no return for NIgella she was able to move out, lock , stock and barrel, into a very nice flat costing £XXK a month. Many women are faced with the choice of a refuge, their parents or friends sofas, or staying put.

And please Bonjourbear watch what you assume. The reason for the delay in replying is because I've been working. You might eat your words if you knew where and with whom.

So when men or women engage in passive aggressive behaviours, sulks, strops, cold shoulder etc - it's not healthy and it won't help improve the relationship.

Couldn't agree more.
Mean what you say, and say what you mean.

Sadly, the balance of power is often skewed towards the man and PA shit is how many women have learnt to express their unhappiness. Which is rubbish and counterproductive, but there you go.

Today I've had dealings with a women in an abusive relationship who has been unable to leave for various complex reasons. She is currently in hospital with a spinal injury. She may never walk again.
While DV of course happens to men (and people in same sex relationships too) the vast majority of relationship violence is committed by men (sometimes towards men). And, trust me, women are aware of that potential threat.
So, coming back to the angry lawn cutting, yes, that is threatening.

Gawd, I am so angry today

Some men and women feel entitled to commit robbery, murder and fraud. That doesn't mean that "society" has a problem with property, life and money. On the contrary it puts a lot of effort into protecting those things and usually succeeds, but with a lot of exceptions. In the same way some men including Charles Saatchi feel entitled to assault their wives; others to badger them for sex. All that shows is that there are some assholes out there. Society does and should try hard to stop them but there will always be some.

Women are more commonly the victims in the domestic sphere, but that's largely because they're smaller on average, and because they can be made to have sex unwillingly whereas men generally can't. They're more likely to initiate divorces than men, particularly in middle age, and to the extent they stay in bad relationships it's mainly for financial reasons where they're not the main breadwinner, not some lack of self esteem. Think some of you are quite into the idea of women as victims. IME they're no more willing to sacrifice anything for a relationship then men are, and often a lot more sanguine about ending them.

This thread is making me very uncomfortable.
I'm a woman who would like more sex with her husband. I also believe in sexual equality.
So if I am to take all these messages on board:

1. I can't get upset/sad about the lack of sex in my life as that would be coercion/passive aggressive behaviour

2. I can't get irritated by lack of sexual release and bonding with my husband (as that might be construed as sulking or aggressive behaviour)

3. talking to him about it would be nagging

4. I'm obviously shit in bed because 'people don't say no to something that feels good'....so clearly my husband must think sex with me doesn't feel good, which doesn't exactly make me feel any better about this (and yes, I have asked him if there is anything I am doing/not doing that he would like ...I'm pretty open minded so that is not the issue)

5. I have broken down with the pain of it and said I would have to leave (and things did get a little better), but now this is threatening and also bad

I've never groped him at least, so I suppose I can rest easy I am not pestering in that respect. I have tried to kiss him etc though and been rebuffed, so does that come into the pestering category?

Yes I could leave. But I have children. And I can't leave them (I'm the main breadwinner, so it is me that would have to leave). So there we go. Maybe we shouldn't have got marrried but it wasn't always like this and we have children now so it's too late.

Anyway. So what makes it any different for men in this position? It's not about feeling entitled to someone else's body. It's about wanting to show your love physically for the person you agreed to spend the rest of your life with. Because it feels good and it binds you together as a couple. And when the other person doesn't want that - on an ongoing basis and with no obvious reason - it's soul destroying

I am sorry you are in a difficult situation, Airbiscuits, and that this thread is upsetting you. That was not it's intention.
I suspect that you are not in a position of your husband being scared to leave you?
Of course it is ok to talk about your difficulties.
Adults should talk about this difficult stuff, without recreation or accusation or sulking.

AnyFucker

If you really feel that the solution to patriarchy is women withholding sex in exchange for stuff, I'd like to introduce to thing called the history of the human race.

Any woman can be in an abusive relationship. I dont think financial status means anything there as I can think of many high earning people in abusive relationships as well as low earning/no earnings couples.

Trying to define what is correct and what is not correct in a relationship is pointless in some areas. My boyfriend will walk around town with his hand on my bum or sometimes lightly slap it. I dont give a damn. Its how we are, I like the attention, he likes doing it, big deal. Many women would hate that. I dont think it makes either side wrong, its individual preference.

I like having sex with him and will sometimes tease him to get more sex. He does it all willingly, there's never any demands, but its not always him initiating it either. I dont always orgasm, nor do I mind that if I dont. If he does something I dont like, I tell him not to do that and do something else instead. He does the same, and we both know what the other likes.

Point I'm making is communication works better than guess work, sulking or asking strangers on the internet. Talk to your partner, find out what they like, tell them what you like, and have fun. If you aren't compatible, split up and find someone who is for you. My ex's were not for me, sex was not fun generally unless I was very horny, and one of them raped me. I am now with someone much more suited for me and sex is amazing, hence why I want it all the time. If you have the wrong guy, find the right one. Same for women, find the right woman. Its simple, just no one likes a simple solution.

rolopolovolo, you might want to try reading what AnyFucker actually wrote a few times.

Airbiscuits

There is absolutely no difference for men and no one here can articulate one. That's because the OP is trying to conflate rape/sexual abuse and mismatched libidos. She's trying to argue that for men, it's one and the same. Mismatched libido or discussion of mismatched libido = rape/abuse.

That's why her original argument was that "men won't die without sex": But that's an argument against mismatched libido in relationships, not rape.Because rape isn't about sex, it's about power. Men who abuse don't really believe they are going to die without sex. Instead of OP grounding this in rape and abuse, she's grounding it in common arguments about libido mismatched couples.

That's why people are talking about doing the housework or giving women and orgasm. Who is arguing that you can rape women because you can give them an orgasm? That's an argument about libido mismatch. Or doing housework gives you the right to rape women? These are all arguments about libido, not about rape.

But then when she is called out, she says oh no i'm only talking about rape. Then why bring up housework or blue balls or orgasms?

category12 what, her glib comments? there's nothing there. tbh. i've read her "advice" plenty of times. It's usually leave x1000 though she's conveniently changed her tune on this one thread. I'm sure she'll be back to LTB on the next thread though when there's no one there to call out any hypocrisy.

I don't think we are on the same wavelength, rolo

My solution to counter the sexual coercion that some men practice is for all women to refuse to be in a relationship with them

But, let me introduce this thing called social conditioning. It's been competently described on this thread several times so you just need to scroll up

Patriarchy supports the current status quo that generally women owe men sex. When your parents, your friends, the only bloke you have ever known sexually and the father of your children, the tv you watch and media you use all tell you the same it is difficult to break away and assert yourself

We all know what reputations women who assert themselves manage to earn, don't we ?

And please Bonjourbear watch what you assume. The reason for the delay in replying is because I've been working. You might eat your words if you knew where and with whom.

Don't reckon I would.

Are you trying to imply that you work with survivors of DV/abuse? If so, that makes the ignorant tenor of your comments worse, not better!

Airbiscuits, I am sorry too that it makes you feel uncomfortable

I think that there is a line that can be crossed over time that people don't realise that can become very powerful when this need is not met, and it sounds like you are already aware of where it is, and tread it. Because it's really bloody hard. But no, male or female you can't be aggressive in any way to get what you desire however strong the desire is. Talking and discussing it has not been cast as aggressive acts in fact communication was one of the top things people have listed.
This is also the same for male or female - if your sex drives are completely different one parties needs do not trump the others and vice versa.
Without knowing your circumstances it is hard to comment on why you would have to leave the family home but 'staying for the children' is exactly what I was talking about earlier that women are still seen in society as willing to sacrifice their emotional wellbeing to give up their sexuality

Tbf if I get aroused and cant orgasm I am grumpier. It's subconscious so I have to actively look out for it. Recently my libido has peaked and I have young kids so it's very frustrating.

I think the bottom line should be:

1. don't give anything you don't want to give.

2. don't take what isn't yours to give

3. it's ok to try and initiate sex from time to time but respect your partner if they say 'please don't touch me there right now' or 'I'm not in the mood tonight'

With this point I think a lot of women don't engage in a lot of cuddling/kissing in case that is seen as a green light for 'more'. If many women felt they could just hug their DP and chat, they'd love that closeness and yes, probably more likely to initiate sex next time.

I'd say the average man would be a lot more turned on if his partner initiated sex.

However, I know a few men have po-pooed the idea of penetration meaning it's ok for a woman to withhold yet he has to spend time with her mother or even do housework etc.

I think sex is great and I'm pretty liberal but I do think being the person something is done to is naturally putting you at a disadvantage - just like being at the bottom of a building being filled with water.

Not to say it's not fantastic but it is true. I think if a man allowed a woman to peg him as well as feeling pretty embarrassed they may get a kind of idea of how vulnerable it leaves you.

Which is fine when you feel close and loved by your partner but if you feel pressured, ignored, taken for granted that vulnerability may feel like it's not being taken with care.

I don't like the idea with a woman rewarding her partner with sex though like they are a toddler. Maybe a naughty fantasy or something might be acted out on a special occasion but by actually rewarding it's almost like prostitution in a way.

I think if a woman doesn't fancy it because she's tired, unwell etc she's well within her rights to say no. So is her male counterpart.

But no to 'no sex as you've not washed the dishes this week'

Airbiscuits - I hear your pain and understand the anxiety you feel reading these threads - which mostly assume a mans insatiable desire and entitlement to sex with his wife whether she wants to or not is some kind of 'bad normal'.
In fact relationships are far more nuanced and apply to men, women and straight and gay and lesbian relationships- where the sex starved relationship is a genuine source of pain.
So while it's true that acting out, passive aggression and moodiness is often counter productive- I'm not going to flame you for these. We are not robots and when people are distressed they will not act in dysfunctional ways - it's also human! It's not excusing violence or abuse or the shitty end of nasty behaviour - just that we can all behave badly when distressed!
Soooo - what to do?
Well I think what you and so many others (men and women) need in your situation is to discuss WHY?
Guys on here get - are you doing housework/childcare/earning etc.
Women get - he's gay/cheating/abusive/neglecting/uncaring - there's nothing you can do - suck it up or leave.
Welll there are lots of things that you can do- so don't despair. But it begins with some honest space to talk and to listen and understand the reasons - and they will be different for every relationship. Then you can figure out whether they are issues that can be overcome (e.g. Resentment, distance ) or can't be resolved (see.standard advice above)
I wish you loya of luck - be patient and take it slow - it could be a can or worms to begin with but you are entitled to want to be in a mutually satisfying sexual relationships with your partner.

Late to the thread, but ITA Pacific

No one ever died of lack of orgasm for 24 hours.

But no to 'no sex as you've not washed the dishes this week'

But it's not as simple as that is it? It's not a matter of withholding sex to manipulate, it's more a matter of not feeling in the mood when you're being treated like a skivvy.

Just because you don't want to be treated like a skivvy doesn't mean you are withholding sex until he 'earns it'. When I see women on here talking about the fact they put in far longer hours than their DH while he sits around and then asks for some sex, I don't think people are giving the advice to work on a reward based system but one of equality. The same goes for orgasms/pleasure. Each party should be able to expect a level of care and respect for the other. When that is not there it starts to kill off your sexual feelings. It will open up 'why should I when I never get the same in return?' Because they have learnt that being the nice 'giving' party isn't getting them any satisfaction and is making them resentful. So when people are told to help their clearly struggling partners it should not be read that it is to reward them but on the basis of showing them that an equal relationship and efforts to help one another breeds good feeling and leads to better communication and respect and hopefully, a better sex life

Only halfway through this thread but man there might be a few reasons why your wife is rarely in the mood. Have yet to put my finger on the most pressing one.

I've had some amazing sex with DH.

I can go for months without feeling the least bit horny, though.

bonjourbear I think you are being incredibly OTT here. You know what? Women don't need fear abuse from men, they need to fear it from other women! Like you. Here.

I have made one point throughout my posts which was in response to one poster ages back. She said 'girl's get hooked up young, have kids and get 'stuck' with an abusive bloke.

I made the point that education and parenting is key to enabling women to be independent so they don't need to rely on men if their relationships turn out to be abusive.

Yes, of course, well educated women get into abusive relationships. yes, there are other factors. I wasn't saying that education is the only answer.

This is the trouble with MN. You post one comment in reply to someone then the pack comes in for the kill, telling you that you know nothing.

I refer to a report on diversity in the workplace and the reasons why companies are promoting it, and get shouted down for not explaining it all here. Well, search and find it! The report is based on answers women gave in a survey.

As for Nigella- yes, she was educated. but her wealth allowed her to move out sharpish when the abuse hit the headlines.
So well done for choosing such a good example that proves my point.

I rest my case.