"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello all,

I dip into these threads because I find them useful but also heavy-going, I hope that's ok.

I've got quite a specific issue this time, I was wondering if anyone else has experienced it. My M is not a narcissist, but almost certainly has undiagnosed mental health issues and we have a very dysfunctional relationship. I've been LC since I left home, and after a period last year where I thought I'd got a bit of maturity and insight and could try to improve things, everything blew up over xmas and we're back to LC which feels best.

I'm currently 8 1/2 months pregnant and the pregnancy was the catalyst for conflict with my brother at xmas - there's massive backstory which I'll spare you but the result was that he bullied me in front of everyone for the couple of days that me and DP were there, ending up with me leaving in tears.

It was a very overt conflict which is quite rare - the family is deeply dysfunctional but it rarely spills over into shouting or clear aggression.

I was very upset afterwards and decided to have counselling - I asked my mum to pay as I couldn't afford it otherwise. They had been offering us money for baby things so I said we had everything we needed but could do with help for counselling - they are well off but I don't usually accept anything from them as I don't want to be emotionally indebted when our relationship is so crocked.

So my mum knows I've been going to counselling (I wouldn't have told her otherwise) but hasn't mentioned it since. I talk about family stuff to my younger sister who is caught in the middle but surprisingly well-adjusted. She has been on holiday with my mum and visited too, meaning they've talked more.

It turns out my mum's take on the situation is that I'm having a breakdown due to being pregnant, that I'm tormented by the idea of losing power in my relationship after kids, that I'm 'very unwell', etc etc. And this is why I'm having counselling!

This is so far from the truth that I don't even feel defensive. The pregnancy was totally planned, my DP is absolutely wonderful and we have a really healthy relationship (still fairly astonished about that!) I don't particularly feel an urge to correct her. It's just so strange. I think the stuff about loss of power is her projecting, because she was a SAHM for years with us and still resents it/my DF. Other than that I wonder if she's just clinging on to the idea that pregnancy is terrible for me to avoid confronting what is right in front of her - that xmas was awful and dysfunctional and I asked for help getting therapy soon afterwards.

We had a very blunt conversation over text after xmas - it was hard but I felt like I was honest about how difficult family things were which is rare. I found out afterwards that she was very upset by it and deleted it all so she didn't have to think about it. So I think she does know why things have been hard and why I'm in counselling. It's just such a commitment to denial that I'm almost impressed.

I've been plagued by insomnia my entire pregnancy and also found out that she's decided that this is due to mental turmoil, like I'm lying awake plagued by angst rather than playing Two Dots on my phone for hours. And on the basis of a very offhand text she has also decided that I'm traumatised from afar by the Manchester bomb as I work in the emergency services nearby. The irony is that I had a period of extreme work-related trauma a few years ago and she was completely oblivious. But now has decided that I'm in crisis over something that hasn't affected me beyond the average empathy of a human reading about it.

This has gotten long! In summary, has anyone had anything like this from a family member? What's the craic? Like I say I don't feel like I need to defend myself and it's almost useful because it's so irrational that it underlines how dysfunctional things are. We spoke on the phone for he first time in months last week and were chatting a bit about pregnancy but the whole time I was thinking about how she thinks I'm a total mess! Not to mention that despite apparently being convinced of this has made no effort to raise it with me or offer support or concern. So odd!

Thank you for reading lovely Homers x

Hi adler.

Yes, I have experienced the weird rationalisations of a mother. Different circumstances, obviously, but the same outcome of my M coming to seemingly random conclusions. My own M lives in a little bubble of her own making. Everything she does is designed to reflect back on herself the image she has constructed for herself and keep her safely in the bubble. If she experiences anything that threatens the bubble, or her image of herself as the perfect mother, she tries to rationalise the experience another way. Hence the way-off explanations.

Most of my M's rationalisations actually serve to keep me at LC, so I let them go. She is never going to change unless she wants to, so unless a boundary of mine is being pushed there's no point challenging her. I know she's passed some of her ideas on to relatives and I've had to let that go too, sadly. I've decided that the important thing for me is that my DD and I don't have the same twisted relationship I had with her, so if that means that sometimes she has some weird ideas about me, then so be it. It sounds as though you are doing the same for your impending arrival (for which, congratulations!).

Solid that sounds really freeing and empowering. Great news!

Adler wow that sounds stressful. I read it and get this sense of feeling kind of suffocated. Well done you for being LC. Have you thought about your approach after baby is born? When/ how long visits etc? My family were pretty intense after I gave birth which I think is quite common. In terms of your situation - I wondered if it's like your head is saying what a load of rubbish how crazy, but your heart feels hurt or defensive about it? Have you spoken to sis about it? Also sounds like it could be a good reminder that vice versa may be true - that anything you're told about your siblings may well also be crap! How weird. It does sound like a massive load of denial and placing the blame on you. It's quite breath taking when you can see it for what it is isn't it.

champagne I'm sorry. I think I've been too strong and opinionated and it's made you feel downhearted. Yes you're right, it's really hard being in that overwhelmed place when you're struggling to get sorted with therapy and your left on your own with it. You could look into some of those containing/ coping things yourself in the mean time - grounding techniques, mindfulness, anxiety strategies, practical stuff like sleep and support network and so on. I hope that you can make progress with finding a therapist - it really is worth the initial hassle and rollercoaster, but I'm sorry it's a difficult path for you finding one who is a good match.

Thank you everyone for your warnings about my M! I know you're all right (although I wish you weren't).

I think I still really feel that need for her, and her approval. When there is a phase like this I just want to lap it up. Even though I know rationally that it won't last and it's all really messed up and I'm being complicit to join in when I'm winning but to moan when I'm losing. It's so hard to let go though. If I step back, I risk not getting any of these glimpses of niceness, and that's a really hard thing to deliberately do.

famsham hmm interesting. I need to think on that some more re triangulation! And your last sentence is so powerful - the only way to win is not to play. But then I feel I lose because then I don't get a family?

Sorry for the multiple posts by the way. Can't see the thread when I post and I can't keep it all in my head so I have to do a bit at a time!

Chest

She will never give you what you still seek; her approval. I think you realise that fact deep down but it is hard to accept.

And re those glimpses of "niceness"-

"It's very hard to have a simple, uncomplicated good time with a narcissist. Except for odd spells of heady euphoria unrelated to anything you can see, their affective range is mediocre-fake-normal to hell-on-Earth. They will sometimes lie low and be quiet, actually passive and dependent -- this is as good as it gets with narcissists. They are incapable of loving conduct towards anyone or anything, so they do not have the capacity for simple pleasure, beyond the satisfaction of bodily needs. There is only one way to please a narcissist (and it won't please you): that is to indulge their every whim, cater to their tiniest impulses, bend to their views on every little thing. There's only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance. They can be pretty nice, even charming, flirtatious, and seductive, to strangers, and will flatter you shamelessly if they want something from you. When you attempt to get close to them in a normal way, they feel you are putting emotional pressure on them and they withdraw because you're too demanding. They can be positively fawning and solicitous as long as they're afraid of you, which is not most people's idea of a real fun relationship".

You may find this on triangulation helpful:-
narcissistschild.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/triangulationthe-narcissists-secret.html

I would personally rather have no family than a toxic one.

Hi everyone - I would really appreciate a bit of advice please....

As u may know I've had counselling arranged for a while - there was a long waiting list. But the Counsellor phoned me this morning and said she now has a space much sooner and I can see her next week. I am pleased, and do want to 'get on with it', but I've suddenly realised I've not got a clue what I need to do - if anything. Do you need to prepare for seeing a counsellor? Should I have a clear objective of what I want to get out of seeing her? I feel like I just have a lot of jumbled up stuff, going back as far as I can remember, which I think has turned me into the person I am now (ie basically a decent person, I think, but also a very anxious one ). So it's all a bit vague.

Am I overthinking it as I know I tend to do that. I'm getting myself into a bit of a flip about it and don't even know why .

Bad taste I wouldn't worry too much about preparing for counselling, they should guide you through the first session. I have recently done a set of 10 weeks of sessions and found that part of the work of the first few weeks was working out what I wanted from it. One thing I would suggest would be taking a little time after a session to chew things over. I'd drive straight home and often felt like it was too quick - I think if I'd been able to I would have walked instead to give my brain 20 minutes to think back over the session before I had to get back to real life

Spare and chest, thank you for your replies.

I do think my mum spends a lot of time doing mental gymnastics to preserve her version of reality. It mostly seems to be a way of avoiding taking responsibility for anything - often it manifests as the classic victim stuff where all conflicts are nasty people picking on her. But then occasionally she ends up really quite a crazy place, which is I think where she's at with her spurious conclusions about my mental health.

TBH I think I do genuinely feel ok about it. It is weird knowing that she thinks that, but I've been LC so long that I'm quite detached. I finished counselling this week and it has been really helpful - the main thing I need to work on is boundary setting with my M. I've gone NC with my brother which is actually just 100% relief at this point (having worked through lots of guilt and feelings of loss to realise that we haven't had a warm conversation since childhood!). One difficult relationship feels a lot more manageable than two. And actually it's quite easy to set boundaries because they live hours away, I have a solid DP and a car etc. There's been no talk of any extended visits after the baby is here and I feel quite positive about being able to set those boundaries. I'm not actually planning to tell them when I'm in labour, which will give us a bit of breathing space, hopefully.

Thanks to the stately homes thread I've managed to come far forward in understanding my M and her behaviour. Many many thanks. I do hope my writings make sense as I'm a bit emotional.
I also read the Toxic Parents book and have been going LC since last September. And all was going well, then, in a careless chat I told M I was going away on holidays. One important rule I learnt is never to give any personal details or give plans, I broke it that day. The next day she phoned me up to tell me I was to cancel holidays for myself and the kids as she was having elective (non urgent) surgery during the summer and needed me there. I said the holidays hadn't actually been booked but I had no say as to when they were happening, except in the school holidays. BF was paying and it was based on his work schedule. Therein started the madness. M wanted to know when BF's work holidays were exactly, M wanted his telephone number to "tell him not to book any holidays". I am 52 and BF is 59.
I said she was welcome to phone him, but she backed down.
I said (calmly) I found her request and behaviour completely unreasonable, we would have to agree to disagree and that we shouldn't talk for a few days and let things calm down. I was almost imploding with anger and frustration.

For all those of narcissistic M's there's no point reiterating anything else. The point is I felt so angry, so lonely, vulnerable and low. At that point I realised that my M didn't actually give a flying fuck about me, the grandkids, nothing. I realised she had actually planned her operation to coincide with my hols in an attempt to stop me going. I asked her why my presence was so important..."in case I die on the operating table". I said that if that is the unfortunate case, she'd hardly know where I was. Her response "it would make things run so much more smoothly".

So I've been really sad, it's like this was the epiphany I needed, a truly ridiculous, selfish, entitled and nuts scenario to bring me to my senses. She knows grand kids have only had one holiday, ever. All her previous attention seeking, abusive behaviour was always carefully disguised.
I don't want to bore everyone with endless details but she was a ghastly woman, a narcissist, nasty, cunning and very manipulative all my life. I felt like I was entangled with her as opposed to being nurtured.
Now I'm breaking free but I feel quite weird, I've no intention of making the 'peace' with her, she is huffing and telling all friends and family I'm a shit selfish daughter and my bf is controlling. I'm not that bothered with this, but how does one cope with the vast swathes of time that are left now I don't have to bother with her anymore ? She took up every waking moment with her demands, phone calls, texts etc, and now nothing.
I'm not complaining, I just wondered how one recovers after so long being under a thumb and being free and if anyone with experience of this knows what the next course of action will be ?

I love the title of this . My parents never took us to stately homes, but I can imagine them using this as their defence. I have a very toxic mother. She basically lives in a fantasy world of her childhood pre boarding school, where she was sent at aged 8. Her brother was sent at 5. We are talking thousands of miles away and they often didn't; come home in the holidays. My mother is emotionally stuck at this age, and sees her childhood in rose tinted terms. She doesn't talk about her married life or have any memories of us as a family, she just talks about her 'family' i.e. parents and siblings as a highly romanticised ideal. She left her own country to move to the UK when I was little and I don't think she was happy from the point she got married. I have always been the black sheep. She seems suspicious and jealous of me and often comes out with really vicious remarks which she doesn't even see as hurtful. Meanwhile, my younger siblings can do no wrong. I have never had any support to speak of from her, emotional or otherwise. I have had to bring myself up and navigate all of life's difficulties unsupported. My father was emotionally and sometimes physically abusive (i.e. hitting me), but he was the only one to ever show love occasionally .
I cut them off at one point for three years as I couldn't cope with their lack of interest /nastiness. It is really hard to go through life feeling no one really loves you. My mother does love me in a way but not in any useful fashion that supports me. She twists anything i say to suit her own agenda and her own warped vision of who I am. It is soul destroying. I know when she dies I will be devastated, just because I can never make it all right.

Prima My M hates it when I go on holiday too, she goes away 4 or 5 times a year and has travelled the world, I've only been abroad twice in 12 years but both times she cried (dry tears) because I'd not be there to meet her for coffee. Anyways... the way I have dealt with lowering contact is to increase my hours at work. It's keeping me busy plus I'm able to for the first time ever save some cash, this will be useful because I know what's coming next with mine, she'll threaten to cut me out of her will. She's very predictable.

A friend of mine, she's not on MN but in a similar situation, she's taken on a lovely part time job at a garden centre. She gets to mingle with lovely happy people and gets paid for it and is very much appreciated. The mingling with norms and feeling appreciated is wonderful for her self esteem. Xx

Yes, I was actually thinking exactly this Treacle. M has been away about 4/5 times a year ever since I remember...she cant be arsed going away anymore, hence the surgery ! I am going to get a job by end of the summer, I have to.

I think for people like us who have been conditioned to serve the beauty of committing to a little job is that we won't make excuses not to go, whereas if we took up a hobby ( a bit of indulgent me time ) then it could make us feel selfish and if something else came up it's easily dropped only adding to the pain.

I'm 47, I've worked since I was 16 and it's only these past 4 or 5 months that I've felt financially okay. I only just now have enough cash to treat myself to have my hair done or my nails and I can buy shoes that I like rather than need and I can be sensible and save too. My M is financially abusive, I didn't realise she was until I started to earn just that little more than I actually needed, her reaction has been an eye opener.

I've been reading a book about boundaries, 'Where to Draw the line' by Anne Katherine, it's really spurred me on and given me food for thought. It's easy reading, I read it in an afternoon, but as I didn't even know what boundaries were it's given me a good starting point.

I cried off from seeing my parents last week as I was about to go on holiday and had so much to do. If my M was normal I'd have happily have worked round a visit but seeing as for the past month she's ignored me I put seeing her as low priority. My M didn't get in touch to say have a good time despite it being the first time we've been abroad for 5 years. We went to New York, so I kind of figured that what with the recent attacks she might have wished us a safe flight but no, nothing.

I usually meet my parents on a Friday at a set time at a set place (public place). We arrived back yesterday but I've not heard from them. I'm resisting contacting them to see if they're still on for meeting tomorrow. I'm thinking of just turning up tomorrow, I've got my fingers crossed that they'll just not be there but perhaps I'm not that lucky. I just don't know what to do for the best if/when I'm faced with that sullen sour face. I don't know whether to a) Ignore ignore ignore make polite convo with dad and then text dad later saying I'm not coming again b) just get up and go then block c) say something, I don't know, something along the lines of 'Its pointless me rushing about like an idiot to come here every Friday to get ignored'.

What would you advise? If it helps I don't feel sad about not having my mum love me, I've always known she hasn't. I feel sad that I haven't got a loving mother but that mother I do have is a horrible person, selfish, emotionally cruel and manipulative and I don't believe in a million years that she'll ever change (unless she 100% gets her own way). Also, up to now I've always been compliant. I've never questioned her or challenged her but I sense that she can feel me slipping away hence the silent treatment I've been getting.

*I previewed what I'd written, I was shocked to see (IMO) that I read like a child and not a 47 year old woman. I can't believe I'm so entangled at my age

Treacle I was wondering what you'd do about your next Friday meet-up.

Having missed it once I'd seize the day and miss it again. Text your DF again with an excuse if you feel you can't let him down, but I wouldn't worry about your M's feelings. It doesn't sound as though she's ever bothered about yours. Personally I'd do something nice in the time you've liberated, too.

The boundary book is good, isn't it. I have left it out in the bedside table (even though I've read it) because I am worried I might slip back into my old ways unless I have a physical reminder sitting there.

Hope you enjoyed your holiday.

chest that's not how you came across to me, so please don't worry. I'm feeling downhearted and all sorts of bad anyway, and honestly spend a lot of time in a little bubble of misery, thinking about how I've failed in every part of my life.. not sure anyone else could make it worse. I went so far as to look up 'covert narcissist' and try to figure out if I'm becoming that, as I feel so self-focused, on my own, dealing with stuff in my own head 99% of the time. It's hard to have a positive conversation with anyone, due to having so much negativity built up inside me, I feel like a walking volcano. Chit chat is impossible in this state of mind. I probably seem like a complete cow to the average person.

I don't know much about coping/grounding techniques so thank you, will look those up. I'll be honest and say that I use food and drink a lot. Probably not healthy but better than raging at my daughter.

bumblebee stately homes isn't so apt isn't it. I also describe it to myself now as being 'provided for but never parented' (though that's not true for everyone on here, some were not provided for either). Parenting would involve teaching, guiding, getting alongside your child, observing and acknowledging them and leading them to understand themselves and the world. Not just giving them 'stuff' or taking them to places, in itself. There is a world of difference between providing and parenting.

Yeah I was like that too. There was a straw that broke the camel's back moment, but it was insignificant compared to some of the shit I put up with in the past. Of course then they go around telling themselves that you're totally unreasonable because you NC'd them for a minor misunderstanding, conveniently forgetting the 20-odd or whatever years of abuse you put up with before that. Not that it matters either way - we just have to pick the time when we're ready. I think

This.

Thank you Spare

Although I wanted to cry off again I decided to go because my OH was going to come with me. He sort of gives me strength in that I stand up for myself more when he's around. I was half expecting her not to be there but she was, she even asked about the holiday. I thought at one point she was going to mention my hair because she was pointing at it (ive had it lightened a second time so it's gone from being dark brown to completely blonde) but she was just waiting for a break in conversation so she could tell me that some of it was sticking up and asked if I was suffering from static.

It was an okay meet. Just general chat about our holiday and their house sale. I didn't notice any sly comments (apart from the hair). At the end as we were leaving she did turn back to ask if I'm on for same time next week and I said it'd have to be the week after as I've to be somewhere next week and can't get out of it, she looked a little wounded but she just nodded.

I feel as though the factory settings have been reset. There was no unpleasantness, I mean it wasn't fabulous but then again it never has been fabulous but it wasn't awful either. My aim now is to see them in two weeks and as and when any unpleasantness starts I'll nip it in the bud. Easier said than done I know but thanks to the boundary book I have identified what I won't tolerate and have stored strategies in my head to deal with them. I feel that book is going to be a changer for me, not just with my M but with everyone and everything.

I'm not holding up hope of some sort of cute mother daughter relationship but I am prepared to stay LC as long as she doesn't upset me, I'm too tired for that. My aim short term is to get her telt when she starts as I feel I owe it to myself after all this time to stand up for myself.

Treacle I'm sorry, I was a bit forward in my last post to you I think. I know I have this urge to 'fix' things because of the codependency and I think I came across as bossy. I do it to DSis too and I have to curb it.

That's great that the LC is working better with your M. It sounds like she's getting the message. And I think you were really brave to mention not meeting next week when you left, because that way it's all sorted and you don't need to be worrying how you're going to tell her.

You know how it says in that boundaries book that if you start to set boundaries you and the person you are setting them with will both actually be happier? I didn't believe it when I read that. I was so conditioned to put others first, always. But I've tried it in little ways, just with DH or with friends, and it's true. I can't believe it's taken me 50 years to find it out.

Phoned my M again just now (she with the broken ankle). Not as successful as last time I think because underneath it all I'm sensing she thinks I ought to be doing more to offer to help rather than just phoning. But I keep remembering something Attila said about how often she's ever offered to help us, and no, she hasn't, ever, in the 20 years we've been married, even when DD was tiny and I really could have done with some support, or when I've had surgery and had to rest. Plus according to her she has plenty of help from her friends, and Occupational Health have been already and sorted her out with various bits and pieces, and my aunt is staying with her. So it is my conditioning talking, I think. I probably need to give myself a good talking-to.

Champagne I am so sorry you're feeling down. I just wanted to say one thing though, that if you're worried about being a narcissist you probably aren't one. I think a narcissist would be too busy projecting their baggage onto everyone else to even consider that they might be the problem.

It's okay Spare I didn't see it as you being forward or bossy, I'm similar though and when I do it, give asked for opinions, I do it because I'm trying to be helpful so that's how I saw you being.

I was surprised to see that in the book too, about everyone involved being happier, but it does make sense. Even though I haven't had chance to stipulate any I feel better already. So far mine will be; No bitching about my son, my dad or my cousin (this at some point will roll out to no bitching or tittle tattling full stop), no telling me what I can and can't say (especially after I've said it), no unloading her issues with my dad onto me and no guilt tripping if I can't see her.

With each boundary I have a 3 point plan, i'll state my boundary as and when it crops up, if she breaks it I will remind her once, if she breaks it again I will tell her there will be consequences. It should go something like this,

1. Please don't tell me things my Aunt has said about my cousin, I find it upsetting.
2. I told you I didn't want to hear nasty things about my cousin
3. I've told you twice not to relay nasty things said about my cousin, if you do it again I won't want to spend time with you.

If I can pull this off I'll be mega proud of myself. Usually I take and take and take all those things that cause me upset without saying a single thing to the person causing it. I'm beginning to understand why I'm so anxious all the time.

'She with the broken ankle'

Hi there,
If anyone has time this evening, please take a look at my long and rambling post about my estranged father - feeling terrible, could do with some support right now x

Morning all!

God this thread moves fast.

solid so it sounds like your flying monkeys got a dose of what your mother's actually like? That's fantastic. Sweet, sweet validation

primamadonna
how does one cope with the vast swathes of time that are left now I don't have to bother with her anymore?

IDK if you identify with this but when I have free time I feel guilty: I feel like I should be being "useful". I also have trouble to tell which things I will actually enjoy, because as a child I didn't get to develop my own preferences, spending far too much of my time and emotional energy pandering to my mother. To help this I'm reading about codependency (Codependency for Dummies, which a bunch of people on here have recommended) and I did also try inner child work although it brought up a lot of very strong emotions for me and I've backed off of that for now.

bumblebee, if you don't mind me asking, do you have other people in your life, friends, partner, children? I know it's not the same - these loves require us to give as well as receive. We've never had the experience of being loved unconditionally. I'm starting to believe that that parental love is irreplaceable, and I can understand why you are still looking for it from your mother.

champagne you are having a really hard time of it. The ironic thing with therapy is that esp if you go for something like person centred, as chestofdrawers was describing, they don't tackle the stuff head on, they let you bring it up, and they will quite happily talk for an hour about the weather if you want, because the first priority is not to retraumatise you. But to get to that point of sitting in front of the therapist, you have to do some initial assessment or problem statement, and that can be really traumatising. I got into a habit of telling the same 3 anecdotes from my childhood to give an impression of the breadth of the abuse, so I didn't have to think about any of the rest of it.
IDK if this is anything, but my therapist is nice, she's £45 a session, and she does skype consultations. If you want I could PM you with her details?
It's not easy with a 3 year old when all this stuff is kicking off in your head. I NC'd my mother when my kids were 3. It was a point of extreme pressure - I think it had to do with the fact that narcissists are basically stunted at the emotional development of a child of around 3 - so suddenly I found myself living with 2 small versions of my mother and I was triggered all the time. I would totally cut yourself slack about your coping mechanisms, you need all the help you can get at this point.
Regarding grounding techniques, I find yoga is really good - it's been clinically proven to help with complex trauma (childhood abuse).

Bugger I want to write more but the kids are starting to mess about... one's just come in from the garden with half a dozen pea pods, so probably half my pea plants are now out the ground...

'...or don't you do that?'

I'm being haunted by that phrase. I've come down from the high of thinking that Friday went pretty well with a bit of a thump.

I was initially relieved that my M had snapped out of the narky mood she was in but I'm not sure if I like this mood any better. A couple of things she said arnt sitting right with me. One was, when I was excitedly telling my dad about something we'd done on holiday she interupted to ask if I'd written to thank the organiser of the trip 'or don't you do that'? Then when she asked if I'd taken lots of photos and I explained that I'd taken a few but not as many as I thought I would as it was really busy and we were concerned about losing each other in the crowd, she replied 'Were you not holding hands... or don't you do that?'

The 'don't you do that' had a tone to it, I don't know how to describe it, it was kind of like putting me on the spot but it wasn't so much accusing, it was more putting me down or judging if that makes sense. The thing is I really didn't know what to say about the have I thanked the organiser, it seemed such an odd thing to ask. And, we did hold hands, that was what made taking photos low priority, but as soon as I started to explain she turned away. I know that doesn't sound like much but it's creeping me out, she's gone from ignoring me to suddenly talking again but its not feeling right.

I'm so glad I've got a two week break in front of me. I was so happy yesterday but now I'm doubting my ability to put any boundaries in place, she's too weird, she's not going to just take it, she doesn't follow the normal pattern of thought or rules of behaviour does she?