"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

toomuch thank you so much for the offer.. to be honest, I'm willing to try anything to find someone right now. It would at least be worth talking to your therapist if they have time, to see whether we get on.. so yes please - really appreciate it

Treacle my M is the master of the subtle put-down. They are really hard to deal with as very often you don't notice them until afterwards. I haven't got any useful answers - I am just hoping that I will get better at spotting them over time. She has spent several years correcting me/sniggering because I pronounce the word 'bath' differently to her (i.e, 'wrongly'.) I put up with it for ages but finally pulled her up on it last time we met.

I think the root of it is that they just can't cope with/accept you having a mind of your own.

Btw I think your boundary plan is great.

When I say a 'subtle put-down' I'm referring to your M's 'oh don't you do that?' - didn't really make that clear!

Yes, you're bang on, it was a subtle put down. Thank you. You're very good at summing up and putting a name to things that I struggle to describe. I get such a relief when labels are given to situations, it helps me get past being stuck in the struggling to explain / understand what just happened stage.

I've decided to use my boundary plan wisely, after giving it more thought I'm cautious that if I say that I don't like something she says or does she'll quickly follow it up with a huge long list of all the things she dislikes about me. I'm ill prepared for that. It'd be like using my poundshop potato gun against her straight from a Hollywood movie machine gun. She'd annihilate me.

Treacle

putting a name to things that I struggle to describe. I get such a relief when labels are given to situations, it helps me get past being stuck in the struggling to explain / understand what just happened stage.

I'm the same. But remember this is all part of the grooming.

We were deliberately and actively denied validity or ownership to our own feelings.

We were also not taught the emotional skills, the language or the coping mechanisms to stop it.

Thus as victim of abuses, we are not only unsure if we have been abused, we lack the vital tools to seek help.

Chilling, no?

It is chilling Famsham It freaks me out that this was all done purposely. I remember a few years ago Googling for a list of emotions because I could never seem to place exactly how I felt, this was before I was aware my mother was toxic. I thought I was thick or ignorant for not being able to communicate how I felt.

Treacle I wonder if the way you phrase it would help with the boundary stuff - rather than say x or y is unacceptable or wrong or whatever, you just say "if you bring this up again I'll leave", there's no judgement in it, nothing for her to hook into.

Sadly I think this is something you'll see a lot of now, these passive-aggressive attacks. They get something from all the drama and when you take that away they protest and try to force the drama. It could be that you get an "extinction burst" for a short while and then it settles down a bit but fundamentally it's a frustrating experience for your mother to have you there and not be able to get a ride out of you.

Treacle
One of the hardest things I've had to come to terms with is that the abuse was deliberate and calculated since the second I was -not- born -a boy-...

Actually I'm still coming to terms with it tbh, it's an almighty headfuck.

It was this realisation, or when I, as the kids say, got woke, that prompted the permanent NC, with her and with all who enabled her.

Up until this point I gave her the benefit of the doubt - perpetuated by the 'Mother myth' that society is so obsessed with - you only get one Mum etc?

I've never had a Mum - I had an abuser - I've decided to call her by her first name if I think of her, I'll never speak to her again but if I had to - if ordered to by a court of something (but I'd rather go to jail) then I would.

The only unconditional love is from a parent to their child.

A child does not owe a parent their love, at first it's instinctive, then it should be deserved, earnt even.

If this were any other type of abuse, if she had sexually abused me and told me not to tell, then no-one would expect me to keep in contact with her right?

That's why this abuse is a special kind of evil

Have you read the 'Drama of a Gifted Child' - Alice Miller?

She called it that because the child HAD to be gifted to survive that trauma of chronic and constant every day abuse, whilst they were a child - a child.

An adult would struggle to survive that.

Unfortunately it's been rebranded "Drama of Being a Child' because people didn't understand that.

I spent all these years giving her the benefit of the doubt, excusing her, actually feeling sorry for her.

I have spent years wondering what was wrong with me - I was even scared that I was a sociopath, I felt so detached from my emotions.

However, instinctively I knew, my base instincts knew - for example I aways knew I didn't want kids - I knew I didn't want her near them.

When I was near her, I felt guarded and on edge, I knew danger was close but I could articulate why, even to myself.

I turned that fear and anger inwards.

I also think that's why we have trouble with therapists, we literally don't have the words or skills to articulate the abuse.

That's why abusers denied us our emotions, minimised and invalidated us.

They confused us by telling us what we felt and thought.

They lied to us and other people and gaslighted us in ways ranging from the tiny to the massive, they made us distrust our survival instincts

All part of their tool kit to protect themselves from exposure and to keep their supply intact.

A very high level for of victim blaming - literally, the victim blames themselves for their own abuse.

They my have well have sewn up our mouths to silence our screams.

Famsham yes this. Perfectly put.

I've finally started reading some Pete Walker. (The Tao one.) There's a really useful appendix in the back that lists different kinds of abuse and neglect. I've finally been able to objectively state what I suffered - for me it was multiple different kinds of neglect. It is very freeing to finally be able to say exactly what it was. I think you're exactly right Treacle that being able to name it is really helpful.

Also I think it took me so long to recognise the neglect because abuse is actively doing bad stuff whereas neglect is more absence of the good stuff? I didn't miss something I'd never had, if that makes sense. (I think I've repeated what Famsham said earlier actually, just in a different way!)

You make excellent points Famsham and I can relate so well. I too made excuses for mine and felt sorry for her. For years I thought I had undiagnosed Aspergers or ADHD because I identified (on paper) with many of the emotional traits as well as finding comfort from being around people who were literal or bluntly honest.

I find the neglect difficult Spare, the outright obvious direct abuse I got wasn't pleasant but it was/is tangible if that makes sense and people can relate somewhat but the neglect I personally find much more deep rooted and almost sinister. Just an example, my work mates have known for years that I have a terrible fear of dentists but the other week I explained that from being a small child I had to go to the dentists on my own. At one point I had lots of teeth removed and a brace fitted plus caps/crowns so they weren't regular every day dental visits, they were extremely frightening and painful and because I went on my own I wasn't allowed to be given anything to put me at ease. I had no emotional support or medicinal support. My work mates were more horrified about that than they were about anything 'direct' that I've mentioned.

I do not know what to do about my mum
I love her and she has done alot for me and my children I couldn't be without her but she's just so difficult at times.
I can't even begin to write it all down-I'm very depressed .
Had a huge row this morning and I've said I'm not seeing her anymore,I don't think I want that but I just want all the bullshit to stop.

Hayser of course you just want to get along with your mother, but is she making any effort to get along with you? You might feel like if you could just figure it out, you could influence her to behave OK - but I don't think that's how it works. They want to be bloody awkward. But in any case it sounds like a bit of a break from her will do you good.

What toomuchtooold wrote.

Its not your fault that your mother is the ways she is; you did not make her that way. I think a break from her would do you all a world of good.
Disordered of thinking people thrive on bullshit and like nothing more than a fight or the last word.

It's been years coming and what's been the final straw is that Im in a relationship with someone whose mother is just plain awful.
It's kind of made things worse with my mum ..I could just about manage to deal with her but now there's two of them I've just lost it.
It's all kicked off massively today and I can't see it being resolved.
I've tried to tell my mum what her behaviour is like but she just gets hysterical and says about everything she has ever done for me.
She won't except any form of criticism or that she is in the wrong. She needs to be on anti depressants but she refuses to go on them even tho she has admitted at times that she needs to.
I'm fed up of the hysterics and the guilt she puts on my shoulders ie, she will always say about how guilty she feels for snapping at her mum as her mum is now dead!!It's like we have had this row but all day I've felt uneasy as I'm worrying about her dying
I'm 6 months pregnant and it's like my tolerance for her has gone this time-
I'm in my mid thirties now and I kind of thought this relationship was normal when I had my older kids in my early twenties but it's not.
For example 10 years ago I'd just had a baby my husband had left me for someone else 5 days afyer the birth and my mum threw me out her house and was hysterically screaming at Me in the street all because I'd been quiet and a bit snappy with her (only because she was constantly going on about it all)
. She makes everything about her and how she is feeling never mind the fact my husband had just left and I'd had a baby.
On the flip side of course she has always done all she can to help me and I know she loves me admit I truly do love her .
She thinks all this has happened because of what my boyfriends mum is being like ..she says I'm taking it out on her.
Sorry not a very coherent post at all,I'm very confused .
I've been reading this thread a long and wanted to write something but haven't known where to start .
I've also told my boyfriend to leave which is nasty of me but I feel like if we have split up it will be easier for me .
His mum is just so manipulative and plays dumb when you call her up on her bullshit ..which is what had happened today.
I have you go work now but if anyone had read all that thankyou ..if I can write a more thought out post this evening explaining a bit better I will
Thanks

Also I have a sister and she feels exactly the same as me ..we are both very unhappy with the situation but don't know how to deal with her.
We have spoken to our lovely dad but he is at a loss aswell

Your mum doesn't sound very supportive hayser. People reveal a lot about themselves when you're in need of emotional support. It's hard to be objective at the time because your own emotions are all to cock but a loving person will instinctively offer some sort of protection to someone vulnerable and in need, be it with a gentle touch, a tight hug or words of comfort or even just being silent and nodding in agreement with you. Loving people will also cut you some slack if you behave out of character during an upsetting time.

Hm... love is as love does, in my opinion. Your mother threw you out of her house when your husband left you and your newborn baby. I wouldn't describe that as very loving.

How does it go with her help? Is it given freely, when you need it - or does she let you down at the last minute, and does she remind you constantly about all she's done for you and how grateful you should be? Think about your own kids - what would you do to help them out? More or less than your mother? Would you attach strings to your offers of help more, or less than your mother does?

How do you actually feel about your boyfriend? He's your child's father, is that right? We don't know what else is going on in your relationship but it reads as though you're considering throwing him out because you're too tired of pandering to his mother, and your mother, not because of problems between you two. Imagine you didn't have to do any of that any more - how would you guys be together then?

I think it's dead common that people attract partners who've experienced similar childhoods. It sounds like you and your boyfriend got the same role of emotionally taking care of your mothers. Hence your boyfriend is probably quite crap at dealing with his mother? He buries his head in the sand? This is where people on Mumsnet come and say "you don't have a MIL problem, you have a DP problem". But as you know yourself, it's not so easy to stand up to someone if you grew up with them.

It's really good that your sister and your dad are onside. How is it with your dad? Is he scared to rock the boat? My dad was like that, I got out when I was 20, but he stayed, and he was really scared of making her angry, so I never really had it out with her while he was alive.

We are happy it's this situation and I know I took it out on him today.
He won't pander to his mum when she puts strange remarks or comments on Facebook he ignores it. He often flips at her like I do my mum,then they are ok for a while but it starts up again after a while. Neither of them will ever admit that are wrong his mum in particular will play dumb and cry.
It's a hard one with my mum I know she's ill (there's a hormone imbalance there but she won't take tablets which would help as she doesn't want to get fat and she thinks she can manage without them).
She has periods of being great ..Gosh it's so difficult to explain. I'm not like it with my daughter put it that way and Im worried sick one day I will be .
I've given my mum worry over the years ie especially with relationship problems (I think you should be able to turn to yr mum for support without all the shit that goes with it ) but she sort of can't deal with stress and she makes it about herself. Someone once said my mum fuels my anger and I thought that was a fair assumption .
My dad said to my sister that he would speak to her tonight but when he has tried in the past she storms out the house drives off in her car shouting how she may as well kill herself seeing as how she is such a bad mum and person.
She's not a bad person she is well liked and she can be great as I've said but there's this whole other side that is intolerable .
I just do not know what to do, mum in law is sorted I'm just not dealing with her anymore she is incredibly rude and manipulative just awful.

Haysayer your mum sounds very like mine... makes everything about herself , storms off when things don't go her way, is really unsupportive when I'm having a hard time. It's so hard to have a mother like this. I'm sure you're a better parent than she is. It's like some people don't even want to get better.

If Mum just went on medication I'm sure she would be alot better and it would help control her moods . I don't think the controllingNess will ever change though, I think sometimes you can be too close to your Mum (well in my case).
Thing is my sister and I are the complete opposite ,we are best friends and each others favourite person (we never gey jealous if one does something without thr ither though and we vwry much lead our own lives ) so I think Mum done something right with us.

I'm up as I can't sleep so went on Facebook for a browse (like you do!)
Me had blocked me today,she has unblocked me and made her profile picture one of her and her Mum (my Nan).
I feel it's to make me feel guilty..anyone else ?
I know she will turn up at 7am this morning crying and turning it all around on me ,she will apologise but only to a point and them I'll be right back to square one again.
All of this will be in front of my children again,the hysterics the shouting the crying,the argumentsame my children have witnessed over the years in shocking.

*Mum not me

Hayser,

re your comment:-
"Thing is my sister and I are the complete opposite ,we are best friends and each others favourite person (we never gey jealous if one does something without thr ither though and we vwry much lead our own lives ) so I think Mum done something right with us".

Your sister and you are okay with regards to your relationship with each other despite your mother and not because of her. You two are not like her and are not her.

BTW what if anything do you know about your mother's childhood; there are probably clues there. Again its not your fault she is the ways she is, you did not make her that way.

Its not you, its your mother. I would also suggest you read Toxic Parents and some of the other resources mentioned at the start of this thread. What are your boundaries like with regards to your mother or has she really encouraged you not to have any?.

Some disordered of thinking people never seek the help needed; in all likelihood your mother thinks that she has done nothing wrong here. Her controlling behaviours likely stem from her own family of origin background as well; one or both of her own parents were controlling too towards her and she has simply repeated the same old.

Would stop looking at FB (an ideal tool for narcissists) altogether.

If she does turn up later on, do not let her in. Also tears can be manipulative; they certainly appear so in her case. She was not a good parent to you and she is a rubbish example of a grandmother to your children; they also do not need such toxicity in their lives.