"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi all. Having a crap afternoon here. My mum is texting me asking to have ds again next week. I've drafted out a simple reply saying no but I feel like a total arsehole sending it.

On top of that I was looking through some homemade dvds the other day and there was a bit of mum feeding and changing ds as a baby and it made me feel really sad and like a total heel for how things are now.

Add in to that my batty annoying MIL coming on Thursday and I feel really down.

chocolatephd I'm assuming you never wanted this situation and it's** not of your making? Regrettable but not caused my you. 💐

No it's not of my making at all. I'm just trying to deal with this shitty mental health mess my childhood gave me!

My mum thinks she is innocent though which makes life very difficult. And despite everything I don't like to see her sad.

Hi everyone. I'm new here. I feel like I stumbled on this thread at an opportune time and having read through a bit can see how supportive and helpful it is. I've also read through the daughters of narcissistic mother website a bit this evening (as a result of this thread) and it's super interesting/eye opening.... particularly the engulfing mother section, and the narcissistic grandmother part has worried me. I'd love to become involved in this thread but I don't know where to start with myself, if I even should be here or anything. My childhood was dysfunctional but doubtful as bad as many others. So I thought I might just post an introducing myself post this evening before bed (with a 2 year old and 6 week old, sleep is precious and I've already been awake too long!).

Anyway I hope this is ok, and hello everyone x

chocolate its not easy is it?
Lenl, you are very welcome here. Its hard to know where to start at the best of times, even more so with a new baby and a toddler to wrangle! Don't rush things and let your thoughts just bubble away, post whenever you feel like getting something out there, theres always somebody on here who has had a similar experience. Do be very, very kind to yourself, especially with so many demands on you right now. It might be best to let yourself get settled with your dc before you start to examine your own childhood much more closely, it can be quite a difficult process. congrats on your new addition

Hello everyone. I can't sleep so I'm going to post here instead. I've been checking on the thread every day (since I first posted here a few weeks ago) but haven't quite managed to post. Some of your experiences/thoughts are so similar to what I'm dealing with that I just had to say something. for everyone here.

Chocolate I hope you're feeling better now. You sounded amazing the other day. Your happiness and freedom since going N/LC were really inspiring. I'm sorry you were having such a bad time when you last posted. It's so hard dealing with all this, on top of life in general isn't it? I love what you said about wanting to sit everyone down with a PowerPoint presentation! . I spend far too long making a mental list of facts/events as proof of what has happened. I'd love to be able to go through it with my family.

Sunflower I too have a younger sister who was always treated differently. It's so hard isn't it? Someone said (I can't remember who, sorry) that they wish they were an only child. I really relate to this. It's bad enough that I had shit parents but to witness them treating my sister so differently is so painful. It feels so cruel. And how my parents justify it to themselves I don't know . Unfortunately my golden child sister and I have recently had an almighty blow-up and are currently NC. I finally (after almost 50 years) broached the subject - albeit briefly - of our parents and our toxic brother. I still can't believe it but she denied everything. She thinks I'm mad. She thinks my emotions are completely inappropriate and she has zero support or even understanding of my desire to be no/low contact with the others. I always thought that if we ever had this conversation that she would be supportive and caring.... 95% of me is just devastated to be honest. I'm really not in a good place at all. However, there have been moments since this happened that I have felt calmer and happier than I can ever remember. The contrast is very difficult but I am hoping that as time passes the calm, happy periods will outnumber the sad/angry ones. Even though I am still obsessing over everything, part of me feels so relieved and unburdened by this elephant in the room having finally been discussed. Although my sister and I have always got on OK (we never argued before), she is one of the most entitled, insensitive people I know. She's not as bad as the others but I do think the relationship has been quite superficial in some ways. It's hard to have a close relationship with someone when such an important issue has always felt out of bounds. SpareBedroom and BadTasteFlump, I completely relate to how hard it is when your sisters mention your mother. I love what you said about ranting silently in your head, BadTasteFlump after your sister said something about your mum. I do the same when my sister says something about my mum/dad/brother. She just seems completely unaware, meanwhile I can have my day ruined by my mental torment as I react to what she's just said about them. I don't know whether my sister and I will stay NC but part of me is just so relieved that I don't have to pretend anymore. I don't have to pretend to be OK about all this. Like someone else said, my childhood has led to (probably lifelong ) mental health problems for me. Why do I have to act like I'm OK when I'm with them?? I read a great quote today - "We don't need a magician to take it all away - we just need a witness". No-one can erase my childhood, but having someone to support and sympathise/empathise helps. My counsellor does this, and my DH. Sadly my sister denies everything. That is why I think our relationship can never go back to how it was. Her denial of everything has made me feel so angry. I keep questioning whether I am actually going mad and imagining everything, that's how much of an effect her denial has had on me. Sorry, I'm really rambling here! Just wanted to say that I really understand how difficult it is when you are considering how much contact to have with sisters and their families.

Bestfakesmile that's really interesting about change back behaviours. Sounds familiar! I love how you said that the pupeteer can fuck right off - absolutely!

Atilla thanks for explaining that the flying monkeys are acting in their own self-interest. Sometimes I doubt myself when others seem to have a completely different version of events.

What a huge post . And I bet I've still forgot to say some things! I need to sleep!

Sorry for the double post. I've asked for it to be deleted

Hey there. Sorry, first time poster but I'm just feeling so confused about my family and want to talk to someone, but I don't even know where to start. My parents' marriage was toxic and my father drank enough in the evenings to be shitty company without, I think, actually being an alcoholic. He never liked me. I feel that my mother overshared with me about her sex life, both marital and extramarital - when I was about sixteen, I knew what her lover shouted in bed when he came, and she got me to hide her love letters from my father in my bedroom which terrified me because I thought my father would hurt me if he found them. I feel that all this has left me with a lifelong horror of sex. They divorced when I was in my early twenties. I feel that I was never allowed to have any feelings about their marriage breakdown and divorce, e.g when I cried shortly after the separation because, at that point, I wasn't sure if I'd have contact with my father again, my mother's reaction was "Oh, what have you found to snivel about now?" I feel that my parents were very pushy academically - and I can recall numerous examples, e.g. of my mother being angry with me because a one-off supply teacher sorted me for a single morning's activities into a lower set than my mum's friend's son, when I was nine - but my parents always tell me that I put all the pressure on myself and it had nothing to do with them. I was on anti-depressants for a while in my twenties. Before that, there were years when my family denied my depression and told me that they hated self-pity, that I couldn't seek help because it would ruin my career, that my suspicion (since confirmed) that I have OCD was just me "trying to make myself special", that I was selfish and making things worse for my mother, that things were worse for her etc. Since my (historic) diagnosis with depression, I feel that it now gets used to undermine me all the time - I'm a single mum and can sometimes get rundown or stressed, but I feel that I can't offload to my mother or get a bit tearful without her telling me that I have a problem or that I'll end up being sectioned like a family friend we used to know. If we have a row, it always end with her saying she's just worried about me because I'm obviously unwell/ not coping (I think I'm coping well actually). I can't recall anyone in my family ever acknowledging that my depression was awful for me as well as for them - my mother goes on about it being one of the worst things that ever happened to her, but it sucked for me too. I get told that I'm beautiful but that's outweighed by what feel like non-stop digs about my hair, clothes, facial hair etc. My mum bought me an expensive facial hair removal gadget when my daughter was a newborn and went on and on at me about needing to use it, which just made me feel uglier at a time when I was hormonal and had a massive angry c-section scar. My parents have always been controlling - I didn't feel able to cut my long hair to shoulder length until I was 26 (in one row about it, my Mum told me it would make me unemployable because I'd look ridiculous). I feel trapped because my mother now does my childcare when I'm working part-time - it was her idea and I pay her the highest rate she'd accept, but now she makes pronouncements about my DD not going to nursery until she's X years old or that she'd never let DD go to childcare. If I say, sorry but that's not up to you, I get told that I'm cruel for considering "dumping" DD in a "fucking nursery" and that I shouldn't have had a child if I didn't want her (I adore DD beyond anything). I feel that I end up acting like I child with my parents because I can't ask for changes without being told that I'm irrational, oversensitive and imagining things, or getting a long rant about what great parents they are and a list of all the sacrifices they made for me. I can't tell anymore whether my family is weird or I'm just evil.

ANU

Your family of origin are toxic through and through and reading Toxic Parents by Susan Forward would be a good starting point for you. They are both within those pages and your mother has come out with all the usual responses such people say. There is a section in there about alcohol and families and that may well help you too with regards to your dad.

Its not your fault your parents are the ways they are; you did NOT make them this way. Their own families of origin did that lot of damage to them. What if anything do you know about their own family backgrounds, that often provides clues.

Your mother is not worthy of being called such and only cares about her own self even now. I would now and as a matter of priority find alternative childcare for your DD with immediate effect: your mother is not a good influence to be around your child in any way, shape or form. She after all was not a good parent to you (this is an understatement) so she should not be around your child either. You should not see her at all either now; she will simply you to further undermine and control you.

Toxic stuff like this can and does go down the generations; my concern is that your mother will further use your child to get back at you, someone who she sees as errant and "over sensitive" (a false charge commonly said to now adult children of such toxic parents). Your child and you should no longer see your mother at all. Controlling behaviour as well is abusive behaviour and your mother is out and out abusive. Again it is not your fault she is like this, you did not cause that to happen.

Reading the resources at the start of this thread is well worth doing for yourself particularly the book by Dr Dan Neuharth. A therapist could also help you unpick all this toxic stuff from your childhood and that could help you no end as well. BACP are good and do not charge the earth. You also need to see someone who has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

Anxious from what you describe, your family is weird. You're not evil.

Welcome to the thread.

It sounds to me as though your M is unable to separate from you properly and see you as a person in your own right. Hence the oversharing (because if you are an extension of her, that's OK) and the criticism of anything you do that she doesn't agree with (because if you are not properly separated, anything you do is judged as if it's something SHE's done.) Please don't think that this is your fault. If I'm right, it's a pattern that will have started in your childhood when you had no control over what happened.

Isolated I hope you got some sleep eventually.

Isolated, think of your sisters denial of your very real experience as confirmation of how bad it was. Of course she has to deny it, she has been screwed over herself in a different way and purposely programmed by your mother to be a 'denier' should you ever try to expose reality. The denial is specifically designed to make you feel like you're going mad and that you're imagining it all, this is actually the 'change back' behaviour I talked about. Your sister is only your mother's puppet, as are you and your brother too, just in very different ways.

Hello Anxious, sounds like you've had a awful, shitty upbringing
The drawing you into the centre of their disintegrating relationship is particularly harmful behaviour, you were effectively pushed into no-mans land with them firing shots at each other with no regard for the effect on you. The over-sharing of sexual information is dreadful, particularly when you were aged 16. At that age you are forming a real idea of your own sexuality but your mother obviously didn't like that show of independence and so squashed your sexuality (independence) down by imposing hers upon you.
This situation mostly seems to be about controlling you, making you dependent on them, making sure you can never grow up and leave her. I'm co-dependent on my parents, they have never allowed me to grow independent of them, they did it in a different way to yours in that they were the ones who needed rescuing. My dad was an alcoholic too. Your mum is constantly reminding you that you can't manage without her, you are weak and selfish, she is a saint for putting up with you, just to keep you in her web.

The bit that stands out most to me is "I can't recall anyone in my family ever acknowledging that my depression was awful for me as well as for them - my mother goes on about it being one of the worst things that ever happened to her, but it sucked for me too." this just shows how fucked up the logic that you have been taught is; your depression was something that happened to you because of them, not something that happened to them because of you. It sounds like your mother is totally narcissistic, everything in the world is about her.
My mother is the same, but she is a slippery fucker because she has disguised her narcissistic behaviours behind a facade of being a wonderful mother/person. She also never gives up on graciously implying to me how many sacrifices they have made for me and what a great parent she is.
I have only just realised that through skilful and invisible manipulation she has been making me feel guilty about my ds having SN, as though I have caused her deep pain by being selfish enough to have a child with SN. She has been ostensibly supportive but (as is happening all the time now that I have threatened her construction) I now realise she believes that she is the most important person in any situation.
I called her out on one passive aggressive behaviour more than three weeks ago, she has hardly stopped crying, being ill, having a fall etc etc since. One of her change back comments recently was (while crying pathetically) 'how can you be like this to me (!) after all that we've been though together with ds'
I just said, what exactly have 'we' been through? Dh and I went through that, we were the ones taking him to endless appointments at school and drs, we were the ones that had to fight for the right provision for him, we were the ones who have to manage his behaviour day in day out. She quickly changed tack when she saw I wasn't going to fall for that one. She is going though emotional blackmail techniques so quickly, she has got to run out eventually surely?
The thing is I'm never to going to fall for any of them again, the scales have fallen from my eyes and she can't fool me anymore. A similar thing happened before ds was born, dd was a baby and was suddenly taken ill with a life threatening illness, she was in hospital very, very poorly but fortunately she eventually got the right treatment and recovered although she had to have many follow up tests due to potential brain/heart/kidney damage. A couple of months after she came out of hospital I took my grandma to a relative's funeral. Another relative came up to me and the first thing she said very solicitously was 'How is your mum now, she was so very upset about your dd's illness?' wtf? I wish I had said 'I'm sure you mean how is dd? ffs! and certainly how am I, before you ask how my fucking mum is!' So, I know that my mum made dd's illness all about her to everyone around her. Narcissism all over.

Wanted to say thank you to everyone for posting about grey rock and flying monkeys, I'd not heard of either of them but they are very relevant to my situation.

I've got through uni and have a respected job and have been with my partner ten years in a healthy, loving relationship but I feel bad for it. My mum has said several times oh I've never had a relationship like yours it's so lovely and how she must have done something right that I ended up like this. She regularly says I parent my son just like she did at that age and that she was ahead of her time in terms of responsiveness in an era of "put the baby down". My sister has various issues and not really any friends and has complained she can't understand when me and my mum talk about current news etc and she feels stupid and I've noticed we don't really talk like that when she's there now, which is always. Everyhting is a bit of drama like when my 6 week old was born my sister said to my mum when he was a week old that she didn't feel as close to him as my older son and my mum will often say (When sister not there) oh your sister would like to hold him, it'll do her good to hold him and bond and it just sets me on edge. Same with my older son "your sister is having him on her own for half an hour, they haven't had time like that for a little while it's nice for her to get that time with him she feels like she hadn't seen him" when prior to mat leave he was there with them 2 days a week. I dunno does that sound weird?

Hi everyone. I'm sorry I haven't replied sooner but I've not been too good. Currently just trying to catch up.

xxx

I felt a bit uncomfortable with what I posted but I appreciate your replies toomuchtooold

How she'd be if I didn't pander is exactly what I'm thinking about this morning. It's so hard I've spent my whole life seeing my mum as a good and kind person that to consider otherwise just feels so scary and I can feel my walls going up at the thought. But I don't think it would be good. For example she has a friend who is also an ex (as far as I know) addict and she sees her regularly. I have said not to take my son to this woman's house. Then recently she took him there but they just sat on the grass outside (flats)... this felt really sneaky and basically pedantic she literally said well I didn't take him in the house. This whole conversation was on the phone and I sort of not fully expressed that this pissed me off. I was really annoyed though. When she dropped him home she didn't mention it and neither did I because I felt too awkward/worried about what that would be like. I know in my heart that a healthy relationship you would be able to say something but I try and tell myself it's just me not liking confrontation. Further to that DS bought home from this visit the inside container from a kinder egg apparently it had been in a bunch of toys this woman bought out to the grass. I opened it to check no small pieces in it and it stank of weed and there was residue. Obviously I immediately threw it away but again when I mentioned it to mum she sort of frowned quizzically and said "well I opened to check there was nothing small in it but I didn't smell it" and made me feel like I'd been nuts to smell it though it was unavoidable. Surely the right response would be "shit really that's awful"??? Again I didn't push it and I suppose I'm realising that's because it would cause upset.
I feel like they see me as finicky and over thinking the details but maybe being paranoid and unsure of your responses is a result of gaslightingz

When she apologises she'll usually cry and it'll seem genuine enough but often include "I'm a shit mother" so I end up comforting her. Also I can't stop thinking of a time a few years back where she was crying and apologising to my sister over something then stopped the moment my sister left the room and opened her eyes and asked what I thought my sister was thinking.

I can't get past that she's a good kind person. And I don't know who I would have in the world outside my partner and sons if I distanced myself

How can I raise these things with her though it feels like loads of small things and she wouldn't get why I was hanging onto them.
I find it hard to even see my childhood as bad it was framed as the three of us (me mum and sister) against the turbulence of what life threw at us

Lenl

I have been in the Stately Home for a long while now and what you have written is quite disturbing. None of what you write re your mother sounds good actually. You are very much the child of an addict and have grown up around her addictions, you're still very much one of her enablers.

Your childhood was as well as abusive chaotic to say the very least and the affects of all that are still very much present with you even now. I am not surprised at all that your boundaries are themselves skewed and mixed up because your template is very warped. Your mother still fails you and in turn your child as well. She has no sense of boundaries and I would think that most people she is "friends" with are addicts or ex addicts. She has no real sense of boundaries and is exposing your son, your most precious resource, to chaos as well.

Abusers are not abusive all the time but the nice/nasty cycle associated with such people is a continuous one. Your mother is never going to listen to your point of view; her only viewpoint that matters here to her is her own.

Re this comment:-
"When she apologises she'll usually cry and it'll seem genuine enough but often include "I'm a shit mother" so I end up comforting her"

Tears can be manipulative and your mother knows you far more than you really know her. She has achieved her aims here in getting you to do that. Have you ever wanted to say "yes you were and still are" to her comment about her being a shit mother. Your mother had a rubbish childhood herself rife with abuse but never sought the necessary help. She has taken all her inherent issues instead out on both you and your sister.

It was never the three of you against the world either although she probably likes to give that impression. It was her own self first, second and third then your sister; where you figured on her priority list was a lot lower down even if you were on it which I do not think you were.

I don't know who I would have in the world outside my partner and sons if I distanced myself

Yeah... I know, because I'm in the same situation and now NC with my mother. It's scary. But something to ask yourself is this: how much could you ever rely on your mother if you actually needed help? How has it been for you in the past if you've had to rely on her?

How can I raise these things with her though it feels like loads of small things and she wouldn't get why I was hanging onto them.

In my experience (my mother) there's no point in raising things like this because all you get back is defensiveness and excuses. They are not interested in taking on your views, they're only interested in defending their view of themselves as basically awesome.

What can work better than discussion is to define what your boundaries are and make it clear what the consequences are for stepping over them. E.g. "I don't want you to take my son to visit friend X. If you take my son to see friend X while you're looking after him, I won't let you look after him any more." And then you need to be prepared to follow up if she steps over your boundary. Don't fall for any of this "oh we stayed on the grass" bullshit, she knows fine that was against your wishes. And she might say you're paranoid, or that you don't have the right to tell her who she can meet - fine. Doesn't matter. You have the right to say who your son can meet, end of story.

If you are reading that and thinking "she'll go ballistic, I can't do that", I think you need to consider what that means. That means your mother is free to take your son wherever she likes even if you expressly forbid it. It might be dressed up in nice language from her but that's the truth of it.

And I think her "three of you against the world" thing is, like Attila said, not true at all. Think about your own kids. Would you put them through all the things you went through? Your mother was the adult, she was supposed to care for you, and she really didn't.

Thank you both. I sort of wish I hadn't deleted my original posts I just couldn't sleep and sort of panicked last night. I don't know.
It's funny having my first son brought a lot out and now I've got my second it's sort of a second round of realisations too.

I know it sounds ridiculous but there is a weird comfort in hearing people say, yeah this all really crap. Most of the time I'm convincing myself it's not. After all I feel like I've turned out ok so something must have been alright etc... my mum has had so much trauma in her own life that I sort of feel that because I've coped fairly well (outwardly at least) I almost owe it to her to not pull her up on stuff because it's unfair. Same with my sister actually who is really quite troubled... She lacks the social skills that enabled me to make good friends and have good relationships and move away a little from the drama. I pretty much moved in with my first boyfriend at 14 and am still in contact with his parents. So yeah I feel like I owe it to them to be around because I'm doing ok. I've never realised that until now. Or how fucking warped it is. I've watched my friends leave for uni or move to other countries and I've never felt able to. And now I have the boys I feel more trapped than ever.
You see I think all these things then I actually see my mum and feel bad and minimise and feel like I've built her in my head to something she isn't.

You're right though I need to put boundaries in place that are respected. I know I should have stopped it the first time she had a drink with him there but I find I move the goalposts i.e. think well it's not like she was drunk blah blah which is silly she doesn't need to be drunk for it to be a problem!
She is actually good in a kind of acute crisis situation but I feel uncomfortable calling on her in that way (although she is able to make me feel better) and I think it's because I feel like she almost gets something out of it, a sense of being useful and helpful I suppose. So I try and avoid it if I can.
I've realised I've never been allowed to be angry or actually really allowed to be needy unless it suits.
What I find hard is if I say don't take DS to see X she'll make this big show of being really reasonable "Ok sweetheart, whatever you want me to do, you know that, he's your son" so I feel totally insane. But obviously what she says and what she does are different but I'm so used to accepting what she says as reality. I've even considered seeing a GPS tracker into the change bag to see where they go.
Thanks again and sorry for just appearing and spilling my guts across here. Hopefully I'll be able to be useful on here as well. I really appreciate people taking the time to reply x

I've read these threads for years- I was drawn to them long before I realised why they might feel real to me !
Everything resonates, especially having had a surface 'good' life, and taking an embarrassingly long time (and a breakdown and therapy) to realise mum was/is emotionally abusive and my dad a weak enabler. I think mum loves me in theory, but whenever she spends time with me I become someone who upsets or annoys her. If I show any of my personality she either gets irritable, critical, envious, sad or dismissive. Hence I am now a blank thing that she vents at, and I give her nothing personal of me. She's happier with that.
I wish for NC, but I see I'm not alone in finding this impossible.

I have started being more assertive and boundaried and am toying with trying to insist on certain behaviour, and thought you guys might be the experts on helping me think it through.
My parents have a reasonable relationship with my 2 kids, the eldest I think seems immune to my parents behaviour. He literally shakes it off, ignores it and gets his needs met. The younger (girl) is much more vulnerable. To protect her we ensure she talks openly to us about anything confusing with my parents, and she now says (more to DP) that grandma is a bit mad, says some strange things. We massively restrict unsupervised contact. But the kids get lots from seeing them, it's not all problematic (I know abusers can be nice sometimes....) and there is love and warmth (something I didn't have).

My problem is that Mum is weird around bodies. She will look at me (I feel inspected) and comment on me, recently she poked my tummy to check how fat I am. And she does it to the kids. When they were little it felt benign, commenting on them being tall, slim, strong, skin etc, more ppl do this with little kids so it didn't stand out. But suddenly now they are pre-teens it feels wrong. There have been a few incidents, and I hate seeing her inspecting them. It's not just critical looking, it's almost lascivious, commenting on their size and shape. She delights in poking flesh. And yesterday I am certain that she only just stopped herself calling both of them (in separate incidents) tubby or chubby, only because I think she sensed me on alert as she started commenting on them. She would deny and minimise all of this.

DD is old enough to have talked about food guilt and body shame. I have a history of ED and am overweight. We dont tslk of good or nice or bad bodies, good snd bad foods, we don't role model dieting, we discuss bodies in terms of health and fun and function. I want to tell mum she is not to comment on their bodies positively or negatively. At all. I want to tell her that with no justification, in the same way as any other rule, like the kids have to wear car seats. And that it's just my parenting choice, not up for debate.

My suspicion is she will kick off. Possibly not immediately, but at some point. And she saves grudges for years! And the usual bitching about me behind my back, getting dad to speak to me, then if I stand firm she will blame DP, or me being over sensitive.
I feel now (a food week!) that it doesn't matter. As long as she sticks to the rules. And actually if she kicks off it will make NC the obvious answer.

Am I being overly optimistic about being able to do this? I have an amazing therapist specialising in attachment trauma who I will talk this through with, and who can help me with fall out. DP is great, will support me with what I need, and sees all the problems with my parents. Today I feel strong but I also know there are parts of me that cower when faced with my mum's rage.

Sorry this is so long! Thank you to everyone on this thread for posting over the years - it has been helping a long time lurker. God it's good to get it out though!