"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Sunflower

Make your own Christmas traditions with your H, it is an ideal opportunity to do so.

You really do not need any of your family of origin. Infact you will thrive without them and their associated bile and putdowns. You already have physical distance between you and they, now put down proper mental distance between you and they as well.

You do not need their approval either, not that they would ever give it to you anyway.

"I should probably say I am 41 now so all this is a fairly long time ago and back then hitting your children/teenagers was probably more the norm than today".

You still remember all the details about being hit by your so called parents who are actually not worthy of the term. They are not fit to clean your shoes.

I am now in my early 50s and I can state that no it was not normal at all and also regardless of what country you resided in.

The only acceptable level of abuse is NONE. There is no justification or excuse for them hitting you and twice is twice too many. They are solely to blame for hitting you as they did, you did not yourself cause them to become physically violent. They made a choice to hit you.

Again it is NOT repeat NOT your fault that they are like this; you did not make them this way.

Well, my sister was never hit. I asked her once.

One time my other actually said that her and my father have never hit either of us (she was talking about hitting children in general) and I plucked up the courage to say that yes, she did hit me in the face back in the day, quite hard actually (it did leave a mark).

She responded by saying 'Oh well...sorry...but sometimes if your buttons are pushed so much it's no surprise it happens...'

I am in tears here. Every time somebody says it's not my fault I feel like I just want to cry

sunflower

re your mother's comment:-
She responded by saying 'Oh well...sorry...but sometimes if your buttons are pushed so much it's no surprise it happens...'

The above is utterly appalling. Abusive people as well often minimise or rewrite history to suit their own warped narratives.

And that was no apology of any sort either. Just more denial of your feelings and justification for the unjustifiable. The above is also the language of an abusive person and their actions are all about power and control.

I always try and remind myself of all the nasty things my mother has said, not just to me.

One of my father's other brothers passed away in 2014. As we still lived in Germany then (plus I was on talking terms with my parents) I went to the funeral.

My father actually comes from a very big family (9 children in total, himself included), but I don't know all of them very well or at all. One of his sisters does not talk to anyone in the family and I have never met her. The uncle whose funeral it was had fallen out with my parents years ago, before I was born, and I didn't get to meet him until I was about 16. And I had never met my cousins before that funeral.

Anyway, both of my cousins (his two sons) were there and my sister and I were introduced to them and their families. One of them had a wife and two children.

Sorry, I'm waffling. A couple of days I was talking to my sister on the phone about the funeral and I tried to remember my cousin's wife's name but couldn't. So my sister says 'Oh the ugly one' I was and she said 'Yeah that's what mum calls her'

Don't think ahead too much, I do it as well so I know it's a hard habit to break. Just tell yourself, one day at a time.
I know it sounds a bit trite when you're dealing with this sort of thing but I find exercise really helps, when I am stressed I go into 'freeze' mode (rather than fight or flight) which I think is very common if you were emotionally neglected. I have to force myself to move (I really, really resist) but when I do it I always feel better. I do yoga which is great exercise but also stills the mind, keeps you focussed on the present moment and helps silence that inner critic. It has helped me deal with a lot over the years. There are loads of great videos online, I like doyogawithme and eckhart Yoga. Even if you only do 5 minutes a day it'll still be worth it.

Sunflower my family also are really bitchy and mean about other people (and each other!!) which is another reason I wanted to distance myself. They think nothing of referring each other's partners as 'ugly' or talking about each other's dress size or weight. It disgusts me personally, I want no part of it and even though I expressed my discomfort at it it still carried on. I could write a 100 page essayon all the nasty things my family have said and done over the years. And yet I still keep questioning myself, like, but surely they're not all bad are they? Am I being unreasonable? But the truth is no, I'm not, there is a reason my gut tells me it's all wrong and that's because it is.

And I agree re yoga being fabulous.

Bestfakesmile, you are the second person to suggest Yoga to me. Never done it.

I do know that exercise helps with depression and I always enjoy going for a walk to clear my head and get some fresh air. Unfortunately the Scottish weather often doesn't quite comply.

I know I need to get back into doing some form of exercise, but this new medication I'm on doesn't seem to agree with me. I always feel dizzy and sick, have ringing in my ears and headaches. My CPN has been on holiday for two weeks and I have an appointment with her on Monday, so I'll mention it.

Hi Chocolate, it's exactly the same for me. I know they are poisonous but yet I keep questioning my perceptions.

When I have mentioned things to my CPN she sometimes sits there shaking her head, so I know it's definitely not normal.

My parents are very critical of everyone and everything (except for my sister and her kids). My mother especially likes talking badly about other people, sometimes extended family.

People always say we'll eventually turn into our mothers, so I told my husband to shoot me if I ever get like that.

My mother is a heavy smoker and insists on smoking indoors, despite my father having a heart condition. She also insists on smoking in other people's houses, including my sister's, around my niece and nephew.

My aunt (her older sister) had bowel cancer and had just been released from hospital after having chemo when my mother went to visit her and proceeded to whip her cigarettes out.

My aunt said she'd rather my mother not smoke to which she replied 'Smoking relaxes me, just like a glass of wine relaxes you. If I'm not allowed to smoke here I'll drive straight back home'

By the way, it wasn't my aunt who told me this. It was my mother herself

My jaw just dropped at her smoking!!!! what appalling selfish behaviour!!!!! And to actually report that herself like it's something to be proud of.... I'm speechless.

Just been thinking while doing the ironing, and feeling very anxious. And then I sat and wrote the following:

Let me tell you: living in fear every day for years, with no ally, nobody to confide in, nobody to comfort me, self harming, my stomach dropping every time I heard the key in the door, afraid to leave my room, terrified of being around him let alone speaking in case I didn't say hello enthusiastically enough, or gave him a look the wrong way.... it fucking does something to your brain. It breaks it. And you spend every minute of every day thereafter vibrating with fear that you will say the wrong thing/ piss someone off/ annoy someone or worse.

And you did nothing. Zero. You stood there motionless when he was violent, you watched him chuck me out of the house, you did and said nothing every time he ran me down. And you backed him up. You moaned at me, you complained to me, you whined that I didn't call him dad and sit on his lap and hug him. It's so fucking warped I don't know where to start.

You are poison. Your presence is painful and poisonous to me. I can't deal with it, it's too oppressive. I don't want to be around you again. I want to be free.

Good morning Chocolate (and everyone else).

at what you wrote.

Well I had another dream (nightmare) about my mother. Although the details vary a bit it's really the same dream all the time: my mother is nasty and horrible to me and I am actually brave enough to confront her. Then I leave their house (it's always at their house).

Re her smoking; it is horrible. I am not judging anyone who smokes, but you would like to think that a person could restrain themselves from doing it around their grandkids and their own sister who just had chemo! (And who was feeling so vulnerable that she let my mother do it, bully that she is).

My sister once said to me that she doesn't like our mother smoking in her house and that she has to open the windows for ages afterwards and then it still lingers. I asked her why she doesn't mention it to her and she said 'She will probably just tell me to find someone else to babysit then'.

Sunflower, I'm appalled, Your mother is horrid. Butyou knew that. Horrid is putting it lightly considering she smokes around other people including cancer patients with no consideration.

I have bad dreams most nights too, about trying to escape the house or whatever, stuff like that. It really makes me feel low all day when I've woken up.

Good for you chocolate. The lines you wrote about waiting for the key in the door put shivers down my spine.

sunflower I am a Scottish living in Germany! IIRC there's an Iyengar yoga place in Morningside/Bruntsfield that is supposed to be really good. Yoga is one of the (few) therapies that's been shown to be effective in healing complex childhood trauma: you might be interested inthis book.

IDK if you have been out of Germany a long time and whether you'll relate to this, but I have found that being out of my native culture I find things a lot harder because people are harder to read. And because of my crap experiences as a kid, if I don't know what someone is thinking, I assume it's bad/threatening. I think people like us really need to have people we are in tune with.

When I mentioned this to my CPN she said I should absolutely not feel bad about it and it was up to my parents to reach out during this horrible time for me. But then she would say that wouldn't she? She is not going to make me feel worse.

I really don't think she would say that to make you feel better. They wouldn't want to support you in wrong ideas, but in any case it's not a wrong idea - your parents absolutely should have called you. Imagine you were the mum, your daughter had had a miscarriage - you'd want to check she was OK.

Hi Chocolate, it may sound strange, but people calling my mother horrid actually helps me. It's almost as if it validates my feelings.

I know what you mean about feeling low when you've had those dreams. I've been feeling edgy all day and had a good cry earlier on.

Hope you (and me) have a better sleep tonight.

Hi toomuchtooold, sounds like are positions are reversed then; you living in Germany and me over here.

I have been living in Germany and other countries throughout my marriage due to my husband's work. The last time I was over there was in May 2015 (when we visited my parents).

I actually find British people more easy going than German people and (dare I say it) more friendly overall. Do you speak German? How long have you been over there?

Thank you for the tips about Yoga, will look into that.

Hope you too have a pleasant evening/night.

toomuchtooold, thanks for the link to that yoga book, it looks fascinating. I have been to my yoga class tonight and half way through it I just suddenly felt a sense of well being and got a huge smile on my face, involuntarily (my class mates must have wondered what I was thinking of, but I wasn't even thinking!) I can't begin to explain how yoga makes you feel; a sense of completeness and self acceptance, power and energy, it's truly transformative. Its important to find a good teacher though. I have come to a decision to do yoga teacher training myself, I want to take that step of making yoga more important in my life.

chocolatephd, its so helpful to write down those thoughts, I have written loads of 'letters' to people which I have never sent but the writing of them has been cathartic in itself. Sometimes I keep them or sometimes I feel better if i destroy them, burning is the best, its amazing the release you feel when you do it. I also do a lot of journalling, just writing things down, my experiences, my thoughts and feelings, it allows you to identify more fully with them at the time and then once they are written down it is easier to let them go. I have started writing an allegorical story, its sort of an 'alice through the looking glass' version of my life. I never thought I could write a book but this has sprung almost fully formed out of my subconscious as soon as I started therapy.

I know I sound like a really 'alternative' kind of person recommending yoga, hypnotherapy and journalling, but irl people would say I am a very logical, scientifically minded, unemotional type. I am, and in my 'study of one' (i.e. me) I have found all these things to be really therapeutically useful and it is only logical to explore all likely beneficial options to heal your life.

Sunflower, I know exactly what you mean about the validation. It's like oh wait so I'm really not imagining this, my mum really is a bad person!

Bestfakesmile that feeling during yoga is the best. It feels like you're grounded and connected to the universe and peaceful all in one. I've been doing yoga for years although I haven't been as active lately. I need to get off my arse and back on to my mat.

And I agree about journaling. I have a blogger account set to private and I write on there whenever I need to get something out. Last check there were over 1500 entries spanning seven years!! God I'm so over feeling crap about this situation.

Seeing my therapist this morning, can't wait to vomit out everything I'm feeling.

Hi Chocolate, good luck with your appointment this morning. I am seeing the CPN this afternoon.

I have been thinking about my sister a lot last night and this morning. When I mentioned up thread that I had decided to back off a little (on advice of my CPN) I didn't just want to ignore her last phone call (she had left a message on the answering machine), so got my husband to call her.

She wasn't in, so he left a message on her machine, basically saying that I am currently not doing well and that I will phone when I am better.

Well that was over a month ago. She never phoned back to ask my husband what is wrong with me or sent me so much as a text or an email.

I know he said in the message that I would call when I am better, but I can't help thinking that if positions were reversed I would call or text/write a letter. Even if it's just to say 'Thinking of you'

She knows about my depression and that I have been struggling a lot recently; I have told her that I have been referred for therapy.

After I had my miscarriage I didn't hear much from her either.

Sorry that was a bit long again.
I guess I will have to resign myself to not having any family. It's hard to think about it like that and it hurts a lot.

I keep thinking about this one incident with my sister that happened when I was about eight years old (she would have been four).

It was a weekend morning and my mother, my sister and I were all lying in my parents' bed (my sister was in the middle).

All of a sudden her foot emerged from under the blanket and she kicked me in the chin. My mother asked her why she'd done that and my sister replied 'Because she kicked me under the sheets!'

I protested my innocence and we started arguing and then my mother starts dragging me out of bed and out of the room. In doing so she scratched me with her nail, right near my eye.

I remember sitting in the kitchen and crying my eyes out because I hadn't done anything wrong.

After a while my mother comes into the kitchen and says she is sorry and hands me a bag of sweets.

It actually feels good to 'vomit' this out (to use your term Chocolate).

I have never forgotten this but recently I keep thinking about it more often.

Sunflower I'm sorry you feel sad about having no family, I know that feeling, but it's such a huge achievement to realise that things are messed up with your family and take steps to make your life better. Isn't it better to be free and at peace one day than have shitty upsetting relationships? I hope all goes well with your CPN. Do tell her about the bed incident. Being dragged out of bed must have been very traumatic.

Funnily enough my sister isn't bothered about me either. Haven't seen her in a year even though she lives 2 mins away. I have a serious pain condition and never once in the last few years has she asked how I am etc. Sometimes it hurts but again, remind yourself that these crappy hurtful relationships are pointless and you deserve much better than that. How shit that she hasn't even asked after you. Keep on moving forward, trust me.

I know we are all strangers on the internet but trust me you're worth more than this rubbish.

Keep on vomiting it all out!

Hey sunflower, I've been in Germany about 2 years and I do speak German, although I could do with improving it. I understand pretty much everything I read/hear but my speaking is way behind that. Frustrating!

The difference I perceive between Germans and British is that Germans take friendship more seriously. They seem quite reserved at first but once you've had one or two more personal conversations you kind of get adopted as a proper friend. Whereas a lot of British are on the surface very approachable but it takes something out of the ordinary to get to the next level of friendship. It's taken to the extreme in Glasgow where you can sit down next to someone on the bus and they will share their life story with you! I miss Glasgow (I've not lived there in years but still...)

Don't feel sorry for posting long posts. We want to listen! You don't have to feel like you're imposing.

And you do have a family - your DH. You made your own family, and unlike your family of origin, the family you made is supporting and loving.

best, chocolate*, I'm another one who writes a lot. I have a blog on wordpress and some other writing projects mumble mumble.

Right I'd better go and do some actual work!