"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Onmyown, it sounds as though you're the family scapegoat. The thing with your sister, with your mum's transfer over to England - you feel like your sister did it out of spite to highlight that you were late getting over there, is that right? But if your mother was OK with it, there's really nothing you could or should have done in that situation.
It sounds like you spend a lot of effort trying to prove that you're as good a daughter as your siblings are - it's a competition you're not going to win I'm afraid, specially if they get a psychological payback out of having you as the scapegoat.

How would you feel about stepping back and letting them get on with it? You only have control over your own behaviour, not theirs - so if you're not able to win their approval by doing your best to be there and be supportive, how would it be if you stopped expecting their approval, stopped trying to please them, and focused your energies on your own busy life?

Chocolate I had lots of the same things with my mother and friends. I was bullied at secondary school but I didn't even tell the teachers for fear they'd tell my mother - she could always be relied on to do the thing that was the opposite of what would make it better. Phoning up the parents and shouting at them. Of course at school that made me a total pariah. I felt like my mother's feelings on this were a mixture of "how dare someone mistreat my property" and "nobody will be able to say that I didn't act when my child was bullied".

I was already a pariah by the time I left primary school though. I could never really get the hang of playground politics - it felt like it was a constant struggle to get in with the alphas, and I was crap at it, and even when I got a playdate invite or whatever my mother would always turn it down because she didn't approve of their mothers or something. As I got older it got harder and harder to invite people over to the house because my mother was so awkward and as I got older it was more and more obvious to me (and others) how different my parents were to other people - awkward, unwelcoming. Once I started getting bullied, other kids avoided me too - I know this, because once in my 20s I met an old school friend and she told me some of her friends from primary school had told her I was bullied a lot, and that she should avoid me. It was a bit of a perfect storm really - bullied at home, bullied at school, and the more I was bullied the less able I was to reach out and make friends, and the more reluctant were other people to make friends with me.

I've never really cracked it as an adult. I've found myself a couple of times becoming part of circles of friends that were quite sort of competitive and backbitey, and it took far too long to ditch them and get away. IDK if anyone else identifies with this, but for a long time I found nice people too boring to be friends with. I'd become friends with those sort of people who bring you into their confidence by slagging off everyone else - that felt like friendship paydirt. Does anyone relate?
I think with romantic relationships I did better, both because I got on well with my wee dad, and also because I met my first boyfriend at 14 and he was a good guy. I dodged a bullet there, I think.

champagne IDK if it helps to know this, but anger and regret is one of the stages you need to experience to heal. I won't lie, it's really frustrating. We all wasted all this effort placating our parents or living through shitty situations with friends or work or relationships because we thought we didn't deserve any better. I copped on fully to my mother only when we moved abroad (I guess it was seeing her pull her usual antics at a time when we were really stretched, struggling to adjust, struggling with 2 house moves close together and all this stuff) and I would dearly love to be able to go back to my old life and try out my new attitude on the situations I lived with in the past.
I feel for you with the friend. IDK if you feel like this but I have the feeling that by some law of averages, when one thing in your life has been shit you should get some luck in another area. But it's not like that. A shitty childhood means that you're on track for a shitty adulthood, and improving on that in any way means making a massive effort. I remember my therapist saying encouragingly to me how great it was that I would be breaking the cycle of abuse with my kids. But it doesn't feel great. It feels like the bare minimum. I have to make massive efforts just to get the bare minimum.

Toomuchtooold, Your handle sounds like how I feel! Yeah luckily I'm going n Spain away from the parents and younger sister, i don't think my mother wanted to move that soon, but she was bullied into it by my sister. When it comes to medical matters she always knows best! She told me my m was going to die last year, when the accident happened. Not true, but she would never admit she was wrong.
The biggest problem is the sister I have here, she keeps sending me messages, trying to be friendly, she made a mistake last week and sent me something meant for the one in England, they were bitching about me and my divorce.
I got mad and don't want to see her again for the moment. Also mad because her husband still sees my ex, they NEVER saw each other before!! In fact my ex called him the most boring man in the world. So it really angers me when she tells me about them having drinks together, and she gets the gossip. She loves being The Who who's knows the most. I'd love to tell her how her husband tried it on with me when she was pregnant! I hate the guy!!

At the beginning it should read, I'm living in Spain.
Ok I'm going to concentrate on me, my family and my life. I speak to my parents. I texts them , I know what's happening. I can't reply to my older sisters texts. I'm parents can tell her what I'm doing. It must be sooo frustrating for her. But I don't care.

Hi Everyone!

Im here because i have had to tell a toxic parent to stay away. i was distraught afterwards.

In summary
Mother pretty toxic -doesn't listen, minimises experiences, defends others to the nth degree. I cannot disagree without bearing the brunt of her ire, at 41 years of age my opinion doesnt count.
Father enables.
If i try to assert myself, and get upset because she negates my point of view, i get stonewalled.

Ive tried to say "you've undermined me infront of dd" - her reply will be " you do a good job of undermining yourself"

I don't even know anymore if im the cow or she is..... .i hurt so much. Im kind and gentle and loving (At least i thought i was) but am so conflicted now and so upset.

Forwards are you sure you want to have that letter posted up there verbatim? It would be easy to be outed if your parents googled the letter.

You want to know basically whether there is anything in the letter that justifies your parent(s) cutting contact with you. There's not. But I feel like that is sort of the wrong question. You know your parents are toxic. You know they won't act reasonably. If you try and argue with them rationally, they're not going to engage with that rational argument. You cannot control their behaviour. You cannot make them behave like loving parents by changing your own behaviour. I would say to you, make sure you don't get trapped in that way of thinking where you doubt your own experience of your parents - they act like dicks to you, and you just can't be sure that you don't deserve it, so you go on trying to be nice and reasonable and they go on being dicks and you're just relieved each time if you can convince yourself that their behaviour is unreasonable... fuck that noise, really. Look, ask yourself this. What they are saying to you. Is it supportive? Does it help you grow or be happy? Is it the thing that someone who was a real friend to you would say? If it's not, and I think it's not, you need to stop trying to change their minds and start accepting that they are not friends to you and that you need to look after yourself. Does that make any sense?

Thanks... MNHQ have removed letter at my request

Thank you will read later ...

What is supportive behaviour anyway? I dont mean that in a crass way.
Sometimes its easier for me to say what i think it isnt.

it isnt disregarding my reasonable wishes
it isnt calling me up to her bedroom to preen in her new outfits and asking me what i think
it isnt viritually ignoring me when i try to converse or tell her my news
it isnt when shes on the phone to me but clearly doing something else, ergo not paying attention
it is not her telling me aht i should have done (when its too late)
its not her constantly interrupting me or my siblings
its not her never hugging me, and looking me in the eye

i could go on - and probably will. poss with a nc

Well exactly. And people who've not grown up in a toxic family will say "oh maybe she meant well" with the terrible advice and that sort of stuff, but when all the interactions are awful, when you almost always come away feeling worse than when you went in, and when it's always been like that - trust your instincts. It's not you, it's them.

Forwards hi.

I agree with toomuch that if you always come away from seeing your M feeling that the 'real' you never got a look in in that interaction and basically feeling crap, yes, trust yourself because your feelings are right and the relationship IS crap. You don't necessarily have to analyse it. If you don't feel the same way when you interact with other people then your parents are the problem, not you. Hold on to that.

in floods of tears here. i feel as though im the root of all that is wrong. i mean, logically, ive received invites from about a dozen people to catch up with them this summer. Yet, 'D'M is a pillar of the local community, everyone loves her.

So strange.

I come away, generally, feeling chided, confused, upset, stressed. i think they actually have a pretty crap marriage themselves and are somehow projecting their annoyance toward eachother onto me,. the first born daughter.

i feel really unlovable and get so frustrated. I drink too much, sometimes and jsut feel numbed by it all.

Funnily enough, my exDH and mother are very alike in terms of personality ... more recently its hit home that it was almost inevitable i would marry such a PA. self-serving arse.

i don,t know where to start this phase of my life. Financially ruined. Prospects not great. 3 kids that deserve better. Dont know where to start this imrvement.thats so desperately needed.

Forwards. Sorry you're feeling so crap . I don't know what the answer is for where to start, but it sounds like you're already doing it. You've realised it's not you, it's them. You've confronted them and made the break, if not physically, then at least in your mind(sorry, couldn't tell from your post if you still see your parents).

I had the realisation about my mother a few months ago and I've now not seen her for three months. With the help of this thread and a lot if reading up on the subject, I know that feeling shit is part of the grieving process you go through to come to terms with and accept that you will never have loving parents - but that you will be ok.

Your list of what supportive behaviour isn't could have been written about my mother. One thing you wrote has been a bit of a lightbulb moment for me -

It's not her never hugging me, and looking me in the eye

I can't remember my mum ever hugging me, even when I was little. And it's not just me, it's as if she gets an electric shock from anybody touching her; its strange to see. But I only realised just now that she has always talked about it in terms of "oh, we don't do all that huggy fake stuff, do we" as if it's something beneath her and her family. But actually the only person I'm not huggy and affectionate with is her. Because it would feel horrible, and it would absolutely be fake.

And also with the not looking you in the eye thing, that's a thing with my M too. I was looking through some photos recently and noticed that my M had this weird look on her face in every single one, like a rabbit caught in the headlights - and never looking straight at you. I wonder why that is?

Actually she looks a bit mad, like seriously deranged. I felt a bit creeped out in the end looking at all these photos and seeing the same expression.

Sorry for the brain dump!

Not at all!! No apologies please. Thank you for posting.
My brain is fried. 😰

Forward yes, everything Flump just said about the hugging, or lack of.

Also about the pillar of the community part - my M is that too. Most people think she's a saint. But that part of her is a kind of false self that she projects for other people so that she gets positive feedback about how great she is. The real, genuine emotions - messy and complicated as they are - she has buried somewhere inside herself because she can't handle them. The thing is though, children NEED real, genuine, messy emotions from their parents, however old they are (I'm older than you). Fake selves won't do. The result of a child only ever seeing the parent's fake self is that feeling of 'wrongness'every time you see them, and it also means that they tend to deny any feelings of yours that don't fit into the 'fake' world they've constructed around themselves. It made me feel as though I couldn't be the real me around my M.

Your three kids that 'deserve better'? They deserve a mother who isn't repeating the bad patterns of her childhood, and you have just taken the first steps towards doing that, which is great. You have absolutely nothing to beat yourself up about.

Name changed for this purely because DH would be able to figure out my normal username easily.

Huge backstory, I will try not to dripfeed but will give an over-view (I could write for a loooong time!) and then ask for help.
_

I have been with DH for 11 years, married for 7. 2DC. Our relationship is strong. Controlling Mil. My DH is scapegoat, his sibling is the golden child, FiL is hen-pecked but happy to be this way and defer to Mil in everything - he would never stand up to her even though he has told DH in the past that he agrees with DH privately with some things but would never disagree with his wife.

Things started to go wrong in my rship with MiL when I started to express opinions which were different to hers particularly around how DH and I had chosen how we wanted our DC to be raised. She is the matriarch and no-one seems to have ever disagreed with her deciding everything for everyone (or if they have they didn't last long!)

Since then she is always undermining us as parents or constantly putting me down to our DC or my DH whether it be her attempt at subtle (holding baby DC2 who was crying and saying why are you crying is it because your mummy doesn't feed you enough or is it because mummy is mean to you - I was breastfeeding exclusively at the time) or she is obvious about it but tries to laugh it off when confronted i.e. calling me a cow but when DH confronted her she said it was because I chew my food and take a long time to eat (it blatantly wasn't as it wasn't the context at all).

We have been bumbling along. DH stands up for me when he notices things. When she says things just for my hearing I ignore them because I turn to jelly (and then think of the prefect response hours later!) When we see them we usually do activities focused on the DC so that there is less chance of confrontation.

She has tried three times to seriously split DH and I up. She has tried to put a wedge between us many little times but there are three big times. One of these times she took my DH aside at a family picnic to say she thought I was cheating on him and not to worry but she would always have a home for him etc etc. He told her in no uncertain terms that she was wrong, came over and told me, I gave her my phone immediately for her to see everything my passwords etc but she said she had a feeling. Anyway, the third time was yesterday. I don't think I should say what happened as it could be outing but it was directly aimed at me this time and very volatile/unpredictable. When DH spoke to her she lay on a guilt trip while verbally attacking me.

Since then it has been the straw that broke the camel's back. DH is upset as am I. I feel quite sick and was shaking a lot after the incident yesterday. DH says that we have to think about two consequences of going NC (he mentioned this -I didn't but it has crossed my mind before- ). 1) Is his rship with Pil and 2) Our DC rships with Pil. This is the first time he has mentioned the possibility of NC for the DC. He is no longer wanting me to continue working on my rship with her as he would not blame for never talking to her again. I have said if she apologised then we could go back to trying to have a rship. I have said point 1 is a moot point as I would never tell him he could not see his own parents. We have decided not to make a rash decision about point 2 last night but to think carefully and present a united front.

He thinks it would be cruel for DC to only see FiL and FiL would never agree to that if he realised that we were inviting him to things when we knew MiL would be busy so that is not an option although I could happily spend a lot of time with FiL.

I think that the DC (and I) need to be NC for a while so that she can realise that we are serious. I think it is damaging to them to see one of their parents continually ridiculed. She hates it when one of the DC give me a compliment (she tries to minimise it or explain it another way I.e. you look pretty mummy - that is because your mummy spends the money daddy earns on things for her when she should have been spending it on something nice for you, what a mean mummy - tinkly laugh. FYI I work and earn an equal amount to him and I do not spend a lot on me at all) or they show me any affection (i.e. she tries to take them away and divert their attention to a treat she has bought them). I am also concerned about her temper/unpredictable nature (only verbal from what I have seen so far but she is an intelligent woman and she can choose the right words to cut deep and play on your mind).

I honestly am scared about the influence that MiL could have on our children. I have seen how long it has been for DH to realise that some things are not normal and it is since spending time with my family on occasions that he has realised that extreme favouritism is not usual. I am even more scared now because DH is outnumbered by DC so if I am not there MiL could easily plants seeds of negativity in their ears individually. That sounds paranoid unless you have met her.

My question to my mumsnetters is, please can you help me with the words to explain to DH why it could be damaging for DC to be around her at the moment and that NC could be good for a while for the DC? I just think if we keep brushing her behaviour under the carpet then things will never change and could possibly get worse.

Thank you for making through this essay! Any advice would be gratefully appreciated. I am going to work in about 30 minutes so will check responses at lunch and after work. I have also posted this in chat for traffic but I have often read this thread to give DH advice on FOG so thought you may have some advice from your direct experiences

Hi Goaway. God what a horrible toxic woman your MIL is .

A few different things jump out at me from your post. Firstly that your DH is the family scapegoat. I was also the SG with my mother - DH's family where much more 'normal' but for many years he would sit back and listen to me ranting about my M's latest attempt to upset me, etc, and always try his best to get along with her. Although our situation was a bit different - because I was the SC, I was always the booby prize in my mother's eyes - therefore DH was perfect from day one (to his face, anyway - my M slates everybody behind their backs), and I was the fucked-up family black sheep he 'had to put up with' (in her eyes). But anyway, as our DC got older and started to notice, and be affected by, the nasty things my mother would do, DH started to speak out about it a bit more and did think we needed to distance ourselves and the DC from her. And as soon as he said that, it did make it easier for me to do so. I think as the scapegoat you grow up accepting whatever shit your mother throws at you, because on some level you believe you deserve it (because it's been happening all your life, usually). So maybe your DH is so used to just sucking it up, and he may actually find it helpful for you to tell him that he doesn't have to put up with this woman's abuse, and that neither do his DC - or you.

Something I've learnt is that there is no such thing as somebody being a crap mother but a good grandmother - it's just not possible. So in going NC with this woman, you are absolutely doing the best for your DC. If the only thing she ever did wrong was to try and split you and your DH up, that is a terrible thing for her to do to her Gchildren - so how much can she really love them. Trying to split up their parents for her own ends? Disgusting behaviour - and clearly not caring about their happiness one bit.

My feeling is that as difficult as it will be, your H may be a bit relieved when you say you want it to end now and that you don't want the DC exposed to any of this any longer. IMO you need to be a united front and both go NC with her - but obviously that's for your DH to decide.

But on the subject of what to say to him, just be honest. Tell him how worried you are about the DC, and him. Tell him it's not normal for a mother to want to ruin her son's marriage. It's gone on long enough and you cannot allow this woman to try and poison your lives anymore.

You can put a time on it if it makes it easier for you, or him. Say a 'trial' period of 3 months with NC whatsoever. Ideally in that time your H could have some counselling, if he was open to that (I know from experience the can of worms a scapegoat can be trying to keep a lid on, and it's not nice ). Or he may find just distancing himself from her is enough. But no 'forever' decisions have to be made now.

But my gut feeling is, once you've all had some breathing space from her, you won't want to go back

Goaway - I have the briefest of suggestions, which is this: you don't have to make a decision for all time right now. You can simply say that you have reached a point where, this minute, you do not really feel like MIL is safe for you to be around, or a good influence on the DC and that, for the time being, you'd like to withdraw from contact. Hopefully the withdrawal will be a very clear shot across the boughs. It is surprising how many people do alter their behaviour when they suddenly realise they have something to lose and that the person they've been criticising has power and isn't scared to use it. You hold the cards here. If you present this as a strategy to get your MIL to think twice and reform (even just a little), you may get your DH's approval.

Your DH also needs to read up on the FOG and get more emotionally connected with what's going on in his family dynamic. The Susan Forward book Toxic Parents is the go-to reading for this that is usually recommended on this thread.

Hi goaway!

First of all, I'd second everything that flump and heloise said.

Second, you might be interested in this blog post about how to disentangle yourself from a toxic in-law and allow a DH to see the dysfunction in their relationship with their parent. It sounds like you guys might have got post that stage already though, but it's interesting.

If you read through some of the stories on this thread and previous threads, the kinds of things that toxic grandparents get up to are favoritism of one kid over another, "love-bombing" with presents or sweets to try and "win over" the kids to their side (especially if the parents have got rules about sweets etc)... erm, my mother used to do a thing where she would compare my kids and try and get them to compete with each other, everything was about winning or losing. There's a few people on here who've said they really regret keeping in contact with their toxic parent because their kids now don't want to drop contact - your kids are taken hostage basically, you lose the ability to drop contact when the kids have their own relationship with the grandparent. And then they can ramp up the bad behaviour because they know you can't get away.

Great posts... yes the decision to step back needn't be forever. It may be enough to inspire/provoke change or reflection.

Thank you everyone for your posts and not minding me hijack the thread when it is not about my parents. I really like the thinking of being a bad mother/good grandmother isn't possible and thinking about how splitting us up would be for the DC. When I read it written down like that it makes sense that it would be awful for our DC and why would she want that but sometimes when I spend time with their family and FiL isn't reacting to one of MiL's comments and nor is SiL then I feel my brain questioning itself saying I know/think this is not typical but why aren't people shocked or doing something? I guess they have just been desensitised and as a relative newcomer MiL knows that I am not.

Thank you lanouvellheloise for phrasing it in a not so scary way and badtasteflump thank you very much for the scapegoat perspective. I hope that I am strong then it might make it easier for him. He is amazing and definitely doesn't deserve bad things (in my biased opinion ). I think NC is a terrifying thing for DH. He is used to letting it wash over him for an easier life (before myself and then DC came along). I think he has really come a long way although if she says anything to him (rare nowadays as it is usually at me) then he doesn't stick up for himself but I guess that is because he has had such a long time of thinking that is ok. He is now struggling with what he is expected to do as a son (toe the tine) and who he wants to be as a man/DH/daddy.

Also the thing about the DC building rships with her and then missing her is something I think DH is worried about if the DC are NC and that is what he mostly means about the consequences of our DC being NC with her. The ramping up the behaviour seems like it is already happening and that is what happened yesterday.

I will read the blog and order toxic parents.

Thank you again all four of you. I really appreciate it

Hi all, haven't posted for a while, hoping you can give me a pep talk. My mum had my ds for the afternoon at the weekend, something I've been allowing once a month for his and her sake. However for about five days prior to her coming to get him (and the awkward handover at my door) I have panic attacks where I feel I can't breathe, my mind is a swirling storm of horrible memories, confusion and anxiety, and I feel down. Same goes for several days after.

Now when she dropped him back on Sunday she said she'd like to take him to the beach in a week or two. She caught me on the hop and I didn't really take it in, but after she left I immediately realised what she'd said and that I can't handle this upset every couple of weeks. Once a month is more than enough. So I texted her this morning simply suggesting 20th Aug as her next date to have him. And now I'm feeling all frustrated in my head because she will think of me/ paint me as an arsehole for not letting her have a jolly time with him more, but surely it's more important that he has a calm happy mum than an afternoon with his grandma?

For background, mum stuck by my stepdad for 14 years while he was aggressive, threatening, occasionally violent, made me feel like an ashamed, pathetic excuse for a human being and left me with a lifetime of mental health struggles. I nearly committed suicide on several occasions. Got scars all down my arms. She always told me 'he's not an ogre' and I should be more affectionate etc to him. I told her the truth of how bad I felt months ago and we've been semi estranged since. She had wanted to be my best mate since I had ds.

Chocolate

Is it really for his sake that you have allowed your son to see his grandmother?. Did you hope that your mother would somehow behave better this time around despite your own experiences to the contrary?.

I would protect your son from your mother; she was not a good person to you when you were growing up and she is actively trying to overstep your boundaries now. People like your mother will take a mile if you give them an inch and you have allowed her a way in. Your son needs you more than he needs his grandmother to take him out. Again she was not a good person to you when you were growing up and she has not really changed an iota. Given the opportunity as well, she will use your son to get back at you.

Well he has such fun with her and during our total estrangement he missed seeing her so I felt mean not letting him. I know when he is old enough to know everything he will feel disgusted with her, but right now she is just a fun granny who takes him out and buys him sweets. I certainly don't feel at ease when he is out with her. She had form for being irresponsible with him- giving him too many sweets which cause him reflux, spinning him off a chair and hurting his neck, and once while he was having a meltdown she took it upon herself to slap him on the legs. I feel bad no matter how I try and handle this situation, I really do.

Chocolate

None of what you write are good enough reasons for your son and his nan to maintain any sort of contact. Would you have tolerated a friend of yours doing that to your boy. Probably not. Your mother I would put it to you is no different from a friend.

Do you think your mother feels bad, likely not. She in all likelihood thinks she has never done anything wrong with regards to your boy or you as her daughter for that matter. She is not the one tying herself up in knots here. Your mother is taking the mick her big time. I think your boundaries here re your mother need more work and certainly further shoring up.

Does he really have fun when he is with her; how do you know if you are not with him when he is in her "care". I use the term advisedly here given her behaviours already towards him; I would not have her looking after a goldfish tbh let alone your most precious of resources that being your child. You would like to perhaps think that this time around she will be different but I put it to you that she has not changed an iota since you were a child.

I would still keep your son well away from his grandmother; he is certainly too young to realise that he is being manipulated here as well. Your mother has already not respected a boundary that you set and is now pushing you hard for more time and visits. She has not really altered since you were a child and look at how much you've been profoundly affected by her toxic crap to date. Your son could be affected similarly by her in future years and allowing contact is a decision that is already starting to hurt you.

Chocolate

re this comment:-

"I know when he is old enough to know everything he will feel disgusted with her, but right now she is just a fun granny who takes him out and buys him sweets"

If he will feel disgusted with her when he is of age why subject him to her now?. He is not going to say thanks mum to you for doing that to him. He will wonder why you put your mother before him. Alternatively she could steal his heart and mind long before him so your relationship with him going forward could be damaged as well.