"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@TreacleChin

That is excellent thank you - and describes him down to a T! What great advice - 'good enough' - will definitely give that a go and so pleased it's working for you!

Don't think I ever came to terms with the violence - even though it was so long ago. Too long ago to bring up now - couldn't deal with the trauma. But it's definitely distanced me from him.

Your M sounds horrendous - and well done for starting to take control back and ignore the sulking. Because you're right - you've done nothing wrong!

Thank you Heroes As soon as I read what you'd said about the meal you invited them to and the gift and the card you'd bought I thought okay, so it might be day late but it's definitely at the top end of good enough.

FWIW my OH has been doing the good enough pretty much all of his adult life, it's natural and obvious to him because anything more he would view as being unsustainable. It's a whole new concept to me but I'm really liking it.

Treacle I love your 'good enough' phrase. I think that's basically how I deal with my M now too, though I hadn't given it such a good description.

For instance she rang yesterday - I heard the phone but couldn't get to it in time. She didn't leave a message but I did 1471 (in case it was MiL who's old and frail) and discovered it was her. The old me would have rung straight back, not really wanting to, but feeling kind of compelled to. The new me just thought, well, if it's important she'll ring again. She hasn't, and I haven't lost any sleep over it. It feels so lovely not to care as much.

I am also caring less how I look to other people. DD is a bit of a slob sometimes, as teenagers are. I used to let it go for fear of looking like the 'mean' parent. But yesterday I told her if she left any more shoes lying around in the hall they'd go in the outside bin, and today she made herself pizza after work and left dirty dishes all over the kitchen and I asked her to come down and tidy up. It seems small stuff that 'normal' parents do all the time but it's a big step for me. The old me would have stewed in silence.

@SpareBedroom @TreacleChin

Think you've both nailed it there. It's the guilt and running around after them.

Have you ever seen the film 'drop dead fred'? It's just like the mum in there!

But yes - what's the worst that can happen if they sulk? If you take away the guilt - then there's nothing to worry about (easy words!) and so long as we are doing the "right" thing - ie not forgetting birthdays etc - then it is definitely Good Enough!

We are not kids any more. At our age we can make our own adult decisions. We are not selfish - used to coming last / bottom of the pile. And that's the problem.

My dad has fallen out with family and friends so many times! Can't remember the last time I fell out with someone! Crazy.

SleepyHay interesting to hear your experience from the golden child side of things. I'm sorry to hear your siblings bullied you; that must have been very hard to deal with. I don't think I actually bullied my sister, but I certainly wasn't as kind as I could have been. We squabbled a lot and I didn't really like her very much. She was treated very differently to me - she certainly didn't receive the barrage of criticism and abuse I got - and the way I saw it at the time I thought she was allowed to get away with all sorts of things I would have got a beating for, so obviously I resented her for that. I'm glad to hear you don't blame your siblings, though it would be pretty understandable if you did.

treacle loved what you said about being 'good enough'. I'm definitely going to start using that

Notonyournelly I think that most people feel their upbringing was normal, even if they were abused or saw abuse. It took a long time for me to realise how toxic my parents were so prior to this I did have some resentment to my older siblings. Your sister may not ever accept that there was abuse in your family but the fact that she can't get passed what happened when you were children shows a huge amount of bitterness on her part. In my opinion this usually comes from dysfunctional parenting. Unfortunately I don't have any advice as I've not been in the same position as you but if she ever has her eyes opened and accepts what happened to you then she may feel differently.

Spare Nice one for asking your DD to clean up. I used to clean up other people's mess and often begrudge it but I figured there was no point being upset about something I was 'choosing' to do (i.e. Cleaning up after them) but if I asked and they said no then I'd have something real to be upset about.

I know what you mean about how normal parents must do this all the time but when you've not been parented normally yourself you've not learned how to broach these seemingly simple everyday things. My M would never ask me to tidy a mess I'd made, she'd screech it and it'd all be about her and how it makes her feel and how hard she works and how lazy and thoughtless I am, then she'd not let it lie for weeks/months/years. She was so not a good role model. When my son came back home after uni I tidied after him all the time because I thought he'd only be home for a month or so and I wanted to spoil him, after a while I couldn't keep it up but I'd set a precedence so it felt awkward at first asking out of the blue that he tidy his kitchen mess, I'd feel myself go hot, not with anger or anything bad like that, but more with some sort of nervous discomfort about asking. It gets easier with practice though

Heroes I've not seen drop dead Fred, if I watch it will it count as research?

yes!! Kids tv but just hit a nerve!!

So relieved not to be alone in this. First time I've ever spoken about it.

soscared sending you lots of support and flowers and care from afar. It definitely sounds like you are doing the right thing, but terrifying too. Do you have any support at all? Any friends or family? Could you go to the GP and see what support you could get? Local counselling centre or Mind for some counselling? Private therapy if you can afford it? Are you religious at all - could you find a faith community? Any hobbies to meet people? You're not alone and it wil get better xx

chocolate yes I basically have no friends. I feel really crap about it at the moment. I have phases of trying to meet people then it eventually always goes to shit and I'm a recluse for a bit. I hope it will improve with all this work I am doing.

chest yes im the same, i get the courage to make new friends and then it never happens. Bit rubbish. Glad im not the only one who feels like this though.

I'm currently having a bad time atm. I'm considering going to the doctors and getting some help. I turned down antidepressants last year. But feeling i may need them now. Think i may seek some more counselling too. Everything is just getting on top of me atm,

Goodness this thread has moved on a bit - I will need to take couple of hours to read it all through

I hope everybody's doing ok, anyway.

I just read the last couple of posts on the subject of friends - and it struck a chord (as do a lot of posts on here...). I have always been quite shy about making friends - I get to know somebody then start second guessing if they really like me (sounds so childish I know). Then if I don't hear from them for a couple of weeks I'm imagining they've worked out I'm not worth bothering with .
Anyway I am lucky to have a couple of friends who I've known for years now, and they know most of my family crap.

One thing that sounds nothing but kind of made me do a double take happened this week. I went for lunch with a good friend. She's very demonstrative but reins it in with me because she knows I'm a bit introverted with that kind of thing. Anyway when I went to leave and say bye she gave me a big hug, said she's so glad I'm looking really well, and then ended it with 'love you'. And without thinking, I just said it straight back- because I do - but the thing is, I never would have said that before, but it just came out, and felt nice and normal.

So I'm hoping that's a sign that I'm starting to be a bit more open with my emotions and not just keep everything 'neutral'. Or maybe I'm just looking for a reason for everything now

But anyway choc and chest I will be your virtual friend - I feel like I know you both a bit already. I know how hard it is - for me I would get to know somebody and then my mum would turn up (as she always did), be all nice to their face, then as soon as they left she would start slating them (they're so false, they love themselves, don't they get on your nerves - how can you bear them?) etc. Then I would feel stupid as if I couldn't trust my own instincts about people. But more recently (last few years) I actually just started to think 'no, it's just you because you hate everybody'. Never said it to her though and now I wish I had (like a lot of things).

And also meant to say choc - yes definitely see your doc about the possibility of counselling, or meds if they might help. Don't see it as a negative - IMO it's more of a sign that you are moving forward and dealing with it.

seeking advice for my nearly adult daughter...she has cut contact with dad (my exp since ten years) for good reason, not seen him since particular incident in October 2014 (culmination of various over years).

he tried to get access to her thru me via a psychiatrist/family therapist friend of his...I did eventually meet the guy who "works with troubled families" but a) I felt he didnt get why DD would not see dad; b) kept telling me that research showed daughters suffered if they didnt have a relationship with their dads (i.e. bad relationship was ok, preferable to no relationship); and c; eventually he (psychiatrist kept emailing me on my exp's behalf...asking when dd would be brought in for therapy with her dad) backed off when i pointed out dd was now post 16 and needed to consent herself to any kind of therapy without or with her dad.

anyways, now exp has emailed dd (now 17) to reach out, offering sessions with the therapist, saying
if there is anything he has done she should tell him and he will apologise (i.e. no acknowledgement of anything he did....because it didnt happen right??!!)
how sad he is not to see her
how he wants to resolve any misunderstanding
how sad her sister is not seeing her with him (her sister lives with me and older dd and sees dad weekly)
how he hopes for a normal father daughter relationship as in the past (it wasn't normal aka he never respected her wishes as an independent human being..)
how sad he is etc

the post up top has some good ideas on responses...how do I advise dd?

he cc me on the email, AND he cc her younger sister.... i text her to say i saw the email and she didnt need to do anything she did not want to do... her initial reax was " i dont want to talk now I meeting my friends tomorrow and i dont want this spoiling my day"

any thoughts?

Cest well the first thing that jumps out at me from your post is that the 'psychiatrist/family therapist friend' is being totally unprofessional and is absolutely out of order. Is he really a psychiatrist and qualified family therapist? If so he would know that he should not/cannot offer therapy for a friend - it would be almost impossible to be impartial apart from anything else, and clearly as your ex's friend he has a vested interest in getting your DD back on board. And the fact that this 'therapist' has in effect been hounding you to take DD to see him is terrible. A professional therapist would never do that.

So I would have huge issues with this man, apart from anything else.

This man aside, if your DD had decided that she wanted to speak to a therapist about her dad, whether to clarify the situation for herself, or to have a relationship with him again, it has to be done in her time, not his. And for it to truly be an autominous process, the therapist needs to be somebody who has no personal connection with any of you. IE you would need to find a therapist through the normal channels. Then that therapy would be for her and would be nobody else's business but hers, as it should be.

It sounds like you have a good relationship with your DD and she can talk to you. So I would pick your moment and gently ask her what she wants. And if what she wants is to leave things the way they are for now, that is what needs to happen. She is a young adult and is entitled to make her own choices. You can then put the boundaries in place to help that happen.

If she doesn't want to contact her father herself to tell him this, I would just send him a short message basically saying that 'DD wants to leave things as they are for now. If the situation changes she will let you know. Please respect her decision and give her the space she needs'.

Obviously if she does decide she wants to talk to somebody about the situation, as I said before, the therapist needs to be somebody other than the one 'set up' for her by her father....

choc yes it sounds like a good idea to explore your options wih the GP and counselling. Getting support is a sign of strength imo. It's a big thing to recognise that you need some help. And yes you're definitely not the only one with friends or lack of!!!

flump yes I feel the same, I often wish Stately Homes could be a real life thing. Although then I probably would get too anxious to come haha :D I can really relate to negativity towards friends from M. I'm only really starting to fully see just how critical and cynical mine is. My fantasy of her is the opposite you see so it's hard to admit. She has this cynical smirk. It's hard to shake off that cynicism towards others myself that I have internalised from her.

cest flump gives great advice. The therapist friend is way out of line and if your daughter wants to, you / she could report him as that is very unprofessional and harassing. Similarly with her dad, there are things you can do to keep her safe if she doesn't want him hounding her about therapy (change number, change email, block, contact police, etc). And I agree wih flump, follow whatever your daughter wants to do. You sound very supportive I hope it gets resolved easily.

cest i completely agree with what flump said. Especially about the therapist. Sounds a bit like she would be walking into the lions den with both her dad and his friend trying to convince her what she should do.
I would also consider looking into who you could report this therapist to. So much additional damage can be done by bad therapists. The whole thing just seems wrong.

I'm dealing wih a few big things this week in my thinking. I want to mention one here. I'm finding it really hard to come to terms wih the reality of my family. My fantasy is that we as a family are very close, best friends. They are role models, wonderful people. Reality obviously is the opposite hence why I'm here! But it is so hard to see this reality. It makes me feel guilty. That it is my fault for ruining everything. I imagine if they knew how I felt and feel terrible for the hurt it would cause. And I miss them. I miss the fantasy of them. I don't know how to come to terms with it. :(

Chest I could have written your stuff about fantasy vs reality myself. And yes, it's very hard not to think you yourself are the problem.

It is a form of grief really, but you are grieving for the idea of something rather than something that was ever real, and at times you don't want to believe what has happened, or you forget, even, that your fantasy family doesn't exist. I still find myself thinking Oh, M would like that, or I must take her to see x, or whatever, and then I remember that even when I thought we had that kind of relationship, in reality we didn't. Even when I've thought we've been close it was because she wanted to do something to show off about, or to bolster her own self-esteem; none of it was ever properly genuine. But that doesn't stop you grieving for it.

I would say hang in there. Like grief, you have to feel it to get through it. Easier said than done, I know, though.

cest like everyone else, I think Flump has said things perfectly. Good luck talking to your DD.

Well today is to be that today my life changed for good ....

My DM has kicked my DF out eventually and told him not to come back after he was verbally and physically aggressive to someone in a local shop today.

Instead of focusing on the fact that her breaking point came from him abusing someone she doesn't know and not from years of him torturing his DC, I am going to ride out what I am sure will be a tidal wave of narcissistic bullshit to bring us all back in line and blissfully cruise from VLC to NC.

Remember ...

Rebellions are built on hope (Star Wars)

I know these posts are from a while back but reading them has helped me a lot , no sure of what all the initials mean but I could more or less understand that I'm not alone. I live in a family where my three siblings are all Alfas, two sisters and a brother. We went to boarding schools so we didn't grow up together even if I was at school with first the oldest sister then the youngest, my parents weren't there for the 'big' moments of adolescence for any of us really. But my sisters certainly told them all about it, by the time it got to my time to talk they were fine listening. Anyway their golden child was my little sis, she was the one who got the good marks etc. Not that mine were bad, hers were excellent! The older sister was so full of herself she could /can make everyone believe she got the best marks in the world even though she didn't. Anyway, I'm living a situation at the moment where both sister are angry with me, they've always bullied me but I'm sick of it now!! I wrote about it in another post. If my parents weren't around I could easily live the rest of my life without them, but they are old and still live quite happily on their own. But that could change at any moment. Last year my mother fell in Ireland when they were in holiday, both sisters went to help, they could stay forever so I booked a later flight so that I could take over. I was all set to go when the little one organized for my mother to be taken to England by ambulance, ignoring the fact that I had a flight booked the next day. She was perfectly ok in hospital in Ireland, better than ok , the doctors were saying she should wait a few days before moving her, but my sister, who is also a doctor , wanted her in her hospital. In Ireland she had more family to visit her, she had lovely nurses and a private room. In England she shared a ward, and my sister couldn't be with her all the time. I hated her that day.

I know there is another thread about this on Relationships at the moment, but I'm feeling down, and like a loser.

Am on anti-depressants - 30mg so a low dose, but yesterday/today it's still not helping so much.

I found out someone who used to be a pretty good friend, though mostly on their terms, has seemingly won life's lottery.. I won't post details as would be too revealing, but I find it upsetting that they rejected me when I was at a low ebb and are now flying as it were. And still supported by their loving, doting family, the opposite of mine.

I wish I'd grasped, a couple of decades ago, that my family didn't care and never would care. It could have been so freeing, instead of tangling myself in mental knots about it for years and destroying my own sanity, and missing out on all the opportunities that came my way. I couldn't see them, because I was so wrapped up in it all in my head.. still am.. and so naive/gullible about just about everything.

I feel so angry with myself by now, for not just somehow breaking free and actually building a decent life.

Made a few mistakes there, hope it is understand that my parents were done listening and they couldn't be there forever .

My brother has a very import job according to my family and isn't expected to 'be' there. He is forgiven for not being there, for not buying presents, for everything now I come to think of it. I on the other hand even though I'm recently divorced and have two children who don't want to see the father, and he doesn't try to get them to see him. I'm expected to stop everything and leave them to go running to help. The other two have husband who can go the shopping, cleaning and earn money. I don't.

Just catching up, i've had a few busy days with DS being ill.

Bad i can be quite shy with making friends too. That doesnt sound childish, i do it too! I overthink everything! Thats nice that you could feel more open with your friend like that. I struggle with this side of things too. Its like i have a barrier up. Thanks bad it is quite hard. My mum would also ruin things and get very involved! I remember one time when i was in high school, i fell out with the girls i used to walk home with. I came home crying and my mum handled things in the completely wrong way, i begged her not to say anything but she stuck her head out of the window and was shouting at them. I was mortified!! Its like she didnt listen to my feelings and just did what she wanted.

chest glad to know im not the only one and thanks, im going to seek help. I need help in sorting these thoughts and emotions.
I also can relate to the fantasy/reality thing. When i was younger i used to say i want to be in a realtionship like my parents. This was obviously a fantasy as i';ve now realised my parents dont have a healthy relationship! Makes me sad to know this perfect family in my head doesnt exist.

champagne dont feel like a loser. I know what you mean though, i relate to the feeling like i could have done more with my life as i know i am capable. Its just i felt so dependant of my parents and they used to guilt me into not leaving the county i live in but in a subtle way. I can see that now but couldnt back then. Also very naive and gullible too which people in the past have taken advantage of!