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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

976 replies

toomuchtooold · 28/05/2017 10:28

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

OP posts:
Chocolatteandbiscuits · 15/07/2017 16:18

treacle that's good that you feel happier. I'm also trying to find a balance of thinking about it and not dwelling. It can be hard sometimes.

Yea it would be great if there was a list for narcs Smile
It's like they expect us to read their minds! Every Xmas and birthday it's always the same. Oh and mothers day!
I remember when me and Dsis were little maybe I was 7/8 my poor dad bless him took us out to get a gift for my M. He obviously had no clue and suggested we get her some nice pillows for the living room. Me and Dsis helped pick and we were happy with our gift. Well! M did not like them and responded with "what on earth are these, their disgusting". We were so upset, so she went into a massive sulk and refused to come to the meal my dad had booked up for that night. So just the 3 of us went out. Was so upsetting. What a cow! I could not imagine saying that to my DS. Even if I didn't like it, I'd pretend and just be happy he went to the effort to help pick me something.

Chocolatteandbiscuits · 15/07/2017 16:38

Oh that was suppose to be Grin and not Gin

TreacleChin · 15/07/2017 16:38

I'm thinking that it's times like gift giving that really shows the stark difference between N's and children of N's. It can't be just the conditioning though, most people regardless of their upbringing know to be thankful for a gift or a card and especially so if it's from a child.

Another thing my M did was she always told me what to get my dad for a gift, always (I'm in my 40's). But this year on his birthday she wasn't speaking to me so I said to my OH that I'll go to the shops and buy him the first thing that I see that I'll think he'll like. I bought him a selection of jams and pickles, I wasn't entirely convinced I'd done the right thing but my goodness he loved them, his face lit up and he had the biggest smile I've seen him have, it was like I'd given him the best gift ever! Looking back I don't think her telling me what to buy him was her being helpful, I think it was a control thing.

Chocolatteandbiscuits · 15/07/2017 17:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Chocolatteandbiscuits · 15/07/2017 18:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Chocolatteandbiscuits · 15/07/2017 18:28

Strange isn't it treacle don't know why you can see their traits more with gift giving. Yes my M has always told me what to get my dad. This year me and my Dsis text him directly to ask what he would like. And throughout my life never ever has my dad been ungrateful.
That's so lovely that he was happy with your present. Maybe that year he actually got something he wanted rather than your mum saying what he could have.
Another thing with gift giving, is my M can never keep a secret and would always ruin the surprise! So me and Dsis would know what we were opening

SleepyHay · 15/07/2017 20:00

The gift giving is all about control. I remember her making a massive fuss over some perfume my brother gave her one year. Saying how wonderful it was that he remembered what she liked. To my knowledge my m has never worn or even mentioned perfume before, ever. The brother that gave it to had previously been a scapegoat, until she found out he had learning difficulties. I would like to say that she changed her attitude towards him out of guilt but I think she just loved the extra attention she got from having a child with learning difficulties. It was too late for him though and he barely ever speaks to her now. Don't know what happened to any of the gifts I have ever given her, I never saw them again.

I wanted to ask some advice if anyone can help. I've definitely decided that I want to be NC with her. It's something I'm dreading actually telling her and just want it out of the way. However, she's not contacted me for ages and it feels a bit weird getting hold of her just to say don't contact me again. Should I just leave it and hope she stays away? I know she's annoyed with me about something at the moment and there are a few things that I could guess at but she's not said anything. Has anyone's parents just never contacted them again or am I hoping for too much?

user1498726699 · 16/07/2017 14:20

Hello all. I have posted on here under various usernames over the years starting when I confronted my mother about my childhood (scapegoat role) and the aftermath which was not pretty. I never wanted permanent NC as still too enmeshed, just wanted to finally be 'heard' after a breakthrough in therapy where I started to entertain the idea that I was important and I was entitled to have feelings Shock. Anyway, as a punishment for making her question her parenting, my mother cast me out, told siblings I had a breakdown, and I was mental so they ostracised me too out of 'loyalty' to her.

Anyway I have spent 4 years in the wilderness, deeply depressed, very isolated as I thought I really was mad (suffer from anxiety/OCD but otherwise reasonably normal apparently). I decided a few days ago, that to enable me to move forward, I should try to make peace with my mother, purely for myself, be the bigger person and apologise to her for all the pain I caused her as perhaps it would release me in a sense.

I contacted a sister via Facebook. I don't have any other family members contact details and my mother moved and changed her phone number. This sister banned me from my nieces wedding, did not respond to my request to send flowers to her, and has not spoken to me for 7 years. The message was along the lines of please pass this on to mum. I'm sorry, I need to know she forgives me so I can move on.

Sister replied soon afterwards telling me she was glad I had contacted her, she was there if I needed to talk and my mother wants to meet with me this week.

I had no intention of meeting my mother. I don't want to resurrect a relationship with her. I just wanted to release the guilt of my DC not having family in their lives. I didn't really expect a reply to be honest and that would have been better as then I could say I had done all I could.

Not sure what to do. One of my worst fears being NC was my mother dying and knowing that was the end. She was abusive and a neglectful parent although I have some understanding as to why, and I would have forgiven her for that but I don't think I can forgive her for cutting me out. It made my suicidal and I really believed I was nuts and would damage my own DC. That was a seed my mother planted in my mind when I was a child to silence me about stuff that was going on and that she couldn't deal with. Still have lots of unanswered questions about that.

My instinctive response is to say that I don't need a meeting. I have said what I wanted and that's enough. Not sure if I will regret it though?

BadTasteFlump · 16/07/2017 16:00

Should I just leave it and hope she stays away

Sleepy yes I would - that's what I've done, because I couldn't see the point in the drama that any more confrontation would cause. You say she's not contacted you for ages - is she giving you the 'silent treatment' for some fabricated 'misdemeanour' on your part? That's what happened with me - we had this fucked up thing where she would do something bad enough to make me react negatively to her, then she would flounce off and sulk for days/weeks until I would feel guilty and get in touch.

This last time I had just had enough and realised I was actually enjoying the peace her 'sulk time' was giving me. And when I realised that, it was as if all the power she had over me evaporated - I had absolutely no reason to try and get back into her favour and just let the silence continue. Eventually she fabricated a bullshit reason to call me in a rage and rant at me, which did upset me at the time, but it also made me realise that I had been right to steadily drop her. And I've not heard from her since (3 months). Long may it continue, I am missing absolutely nothing about her, which just shows how fucked up it all was anyway.

TreacleChin · 16/07/2017 17:25

Sleepy I'd like to be free from my M too (NC) and if I could have it happen in any way it would be in the same way as Flump Mostly because I'm highly uncomfortable with confrontation but also and perhaps more importantly I've learned that at best confronting her won't get me anywhere and at worst, her reaction would upset me further no matter how she reacted.

I believe that them withdrawing contact is in their mind a form of punishment, they're taking away the fabulous treat that is them. I don't understand their way of thinking, I can't 'get' into that mindset but I do believe everything I've read about them because they read like a script.

I would undoubtedly feel like you do now though, it must be like limbo where you don't quite know if this is it and the temptation to force that finality must weigh heavy but I'd advise you to resist. I have read about other people in the same position and it only goes two ways, the way of resistance is the one that regularly leads to the calmest place.

TreacleChin · 16/07/2017 17:33

User I'd go with trusting your instincts, they're there to protect you.

BadTasteFlump · 16/07/2017 17:46

User I also think you are much better off steering clear and remaining NC with your M and siblings. How much care has your M, or your sister, shown for you in the last four years? If they truly believed you were 'mental' and had had a breakdown, how could they have cut you off when you would have needed them more than ever?

It is important, I agree, to make peace and move forward, but you will never have any help in doing so from these toxic people. That doesn't mean you can't make peace for yourself though, and you can do it Without your M's 'permission'. Have you read 'The Peaceful Daughter's Guide To Separating From A Difficult Mother'? I found it very helpful and therapeutic when I was feeling very confused and hurt, but at the same time it's quite an easy read, if that makes sense.

user1498726699 · 16/07/2017 18:40

Thank you Treacle and BadTaste. I have since replied and said that I will need some time to think about it then sister replied saying that they could find a way to forgive me and they are there for me! I laughed because it is so ridiculous. Forgive me for confronting my mother about severe abuse which she did not deny! These people ditched me knowing I was bringing up 4DC while suffering from mental health issues (anxiety). They didn't give a shit about my DC welfare, who they professed to adore before my 'breakdown' , when they painted me as a loon. DH said to keep my emotions in check, and wits about me, if I want to meet with her, and do it on the basis of fulfilling my need for a closure on my terms. Going to mull it over.

SleepyHay · 16/07/2017 21:51

treacle and flump thanks, will take your advice and deal with it should she contact me again. The drama I would have to endure is not worth it.
flump you at right, I have no doubt that I have done something to upset her. She is exactly the same in that she will manufacture some way of making me out to be the bad one, not speak to me and then expect me to come running. I haven't done that the past couple of times but all she's done is contact me months later like nothing ever happened.
treacle I do feel in limbo and I think I just want it to be done. However, I think I just need treat my contact with her as over and only worry about telling her if I have to.

user I'm with other posters in that I don't think they are worth the effort and additional heartache. Obviously you need to do whatever you feel is right for you but I think the closure you want came when they were happy to abandon you when they thought you were having a breakdown.

lanouvelleheloise · 17/07/2017 13:21

I have a question about toxic sibling relationships.

I was brought up with a strong golden child/scapegoat relationship - my younger sister was the golden child, I was the scapegoat. I suffered violence and emotional abuse at the hands of my mother from the age of about 11 until I left home. She would beat me with her fists, hit me with objects in the room, fly at me in uncontrolled rage. One time what she did bordered on sexual assault. This was accompanied by years of unrelenting emotional abuse, which was so regular that it was an entire way of life, and not a series of incidents. Oddly, after years of counselling I am now at peace with what happened and rebuilding a relationship with my parents on much more stable grounds. The scapegoating from them has largely stopped in recent years, in part thanks to the stabilizing influence of my DH.

However, my sister refuses to acknowledge what happened, and has attempted to continue the scapegoating narrative into adulthood. I am "to blame" for everything that went wrong in the family home. We used to fight physically even into our teens (naturally, it was the behaviour we had learned from parents) so she has written me down as the violent, disruptive older sibling who ruined her childhood. She has gained a LOT from being the golden child (years of parental help, financial assistance, being shielded from all the struggles of life) so she has a vested interest in this narrative. I have tried to explain the violence and the abuse to her, but she just refuses to believe it. Instead, she tells everyone who will listen about her awful, terrible victimization at the hands of her sister. She's incredibly passive-aggressive about everything, the kind of person who speaks an awful sort of armchair psychobabble, which is just a way for her to refuse to listen to anyone else's experience or point of view.

I find this personally hard to swallow. It has actually caused almost as much pain as the original abuse. I am at the point of writing off our relationship, to be honest. But interested in hearing from anyone who has experience the same, and how you handled it.

StaciesMom · 17/07/2017 18:58

I need a hand hold to continue to focus on positives and not let them drag me back ...

I've posted on here before briefly and started reading toxic parenting whilst waiting for my therapy assessment but thing are really bad and I'm not sure I can go on .... I've contemplated suicide several times this week but I'm not sure I have the guts to go through with it although the peace and silence is attractive.

I was raised in a home with a bipolar father who was emotionally abusive to me and my siblings. My mother collided with it, I guess she was in a difficult situation herself, he was abusive to her, often physically too. She left several times but always went back. My teenage years were of suicide attempts, reminders of how we weren't good enough mixed with trips shopping to 'bring us back in' after he'd been awful.

I'm now 38 and have DC.Me and their dad split up after he cheated on me when I was pregnant with my DS. I have worked for years on low self esteem, seriously body image issues, poor relationships with men and the belief that I am a bad person. I am the first to admit I have a weight problem through binge eating, cannot maintain a long term relationship with a man and my finances are a mess (I'm on the verge of bankruptcy) but it has been in pursuit of trying to provide for my children and cope emotionally with being a single parent and retraining in the hope of a better life for me and DC.

My friends and work are very supportive of me - which my DM says is only because they don't really know me - and I am trying to seek help and move towards VLC but my parents have always been around to help which I now regret accepting because it wasn't really help it was a stick to beat me with later. They say they have had to do it because I am lazy and not a good parent.

The problem is the my DD is being a typical teenager and is testing my patience at the moment. She has a major issue with me organising any social activities when DC are at my house - which is 23 days of the month compared with the 8 they spend at their dads. I have been out 2 times in the last two months, once for 3 hours and once for 6. My DD now hasn't spoken to me for 9 days other than to hurl abuse at me about my failings as a parent.

The reason I am posting about this on here is that my DM has got involved after my DD got her involved for my 'neglect' and I have endured days of texts and visits to remind me how lazy I am, how much I'm not doing and how much help DP have had to give me. I am biting my tongue because I will ultimately regret what I say but does anyone have any advice about toxic parents as grandparents and manipulation?

I suggested today that if she were that concerned she should contact social services and let them investigate to which she said I was 'being ridiculous'. I can't win and I really don't want to be here anymore. Please be kind x

MozzchopsThirty · 17/07/2017 20:53

Would some of the stately home-ers please look at my thread in 30 days only about money & suicide
I fear you guys may understand better

TIA

ChestOfDrawers · 17/07/2017 22:41

Lanouvelle I have two siblings. I have talked to both about our upbringing and they both recognise some stuff but I think are in denial/ don't recognise a lot of stuff, and they are both pretty enmeshed. I find it very hard to cope with. It's like salt in the wound. My role in the family is peacekeeper/ chaser/ fixer/ audience/ doormat (I have yet to find one word that sums it up!). Consequently I usually chase my siblings and try to make everything good and absorb all the crap. Not any more. For the last maybe 4 months I have been doing a lot of work on this stuff and I have stopped chasing them. As a result I now basically have no relationship/ very rarely speak to one sibling, and only occasionally have superficial contact with the other. It hurts badly as I had a fantasy that we were all close, but there is something very liberating about allowing myself to see the reality and taking steps to protect myself. Your situation sounds very painful. I guess my question would be: what do you gain from the relationship with your sister? Anything? Would you lose anything if you did write the relationship off?

Staciesmom I'm so sorry you're having such a rough time. The first thing is what support can you get? GP/ mental health services/ counselling/ Samaritans/ friends/ anything? It sounds like you are in a dark place and the first priority needs to be you feeling safer and more supported. Please know that we stately homers are all here, and my thoughts are with you. Secondly, that sounds really painful and complicated with your parents, and your daughter. Can you take a step back from your parents, and distance your family from them? Could you do something special with your daughter to reconnect with her, away from the toxic influence of your parents?

Mozzchops I've had a look at your thread. That sounds like a suffocating situation with your mum being so manipulative. I can only echo the posts in the thread - I don't think it's a good idea to give her any money at all. Aside from the emotional minefield that that would be, it doesn't sound like you actually can anyway in terms of the financial practicalities. Maybe just go for a straightforward approach of - no mum I'm not able to do that. And don't get dragged in any further? And maybe find a way to protect yurself from the backlash of manipulation/ shit stirring.

ChestOfDrawers · 17/07/2017 22:41

Lanouvelle I have two siblings. I have talked to both about our upbringing and they both recognise some stuff but I think are in denial/ don't recognise a lot of stuff, and they are both pretty enmeshed. I find it very hard to cope with. It's like salt in the wound. My role in the family is peacekeeper/ chaser/ fixer/ audience/ doormat (I have yet to find one word that sums it up!). Consequently I usually chase my siblings and try to make everything good and absorb all the crap. Not any more. For the last maybe 4 months I have been doing a lot of work on this stuff and I have stopped chasing them. As a result I now basically have no relationship/ very rarely speak to one sibling, and only occasionally have superficial contact with the other. It hurts badly as I had a fantasy that we were all close, but there is something very liberating about allowing myself to see the reality and taking steps to protect myself. Your situation sounds very painful. I guess my question would be: what do you gain from the relationship with your sister? Anything? Would you lose anything if you did write the relationship off?

Staciesmom I'm so sorry you're having such a rough time. The first thing is what support can you get? GP/ mental health services/ counselling/ Samaritans/ friends/ anything? It sounds like you are in a dark place and the first priority needs to be you feeling safer and more supported. Please know that we stately homers are all here, and my thoughts are with you. Secondly, that sounds really painful and complicated with your parents, and your daughter. Can you take a step back from your parents, and distance your family from them? Could you do something special with your daughter to reconnect with her, away from the toxic influence of your parents?

Mozzchops I've had a look at your thread. That sounds like a suffocating situation with your mum being so manipulative. I can only echo the posts in the thread - I don't think it's a good idea to give her any money at all. Aside from the emotional minefield that that would be, it doesn't sound like you actually can anyway in terms of the financial practicalities. Maybe just go for a straightforward approach of - no mum I'm not able to do that. And don't get dragged in any further? And maybe find a way to protect yurself from the backlash of manipulation/ shit stirring. I hope you can find a way forward :)

StaciesMom · 17/07/2017 23:47

Thanks Glass.

Unfortunately, taking a step back isn't an option. I (wrongly) chose to move across the road from my parents and now due to my financial situation, I am not in a position to move. Consequently, my parents watch my every move. Her latest thing is that she makes comments about how often I am watching TV in the lounge because she can see through the window when I could be doing housework. As a result, I've just stopped watching TV.

The situation with my daughter will resolve itself I think. It's hormones and her acting out but it will take a little longer whilst DP are stirring in it.

It's just the mental and physical strength it takes to keep going Day in, day out.

StaciesMom · 17/07/2017 23:48

Sorry I mean Chest not Glass. It's late 😴

StaciesMom · 17/07/2017 23:55

I also really worry that I am a toxic parent and I don't realise it. My parents clearly didn't know so why would I?

Flashinthepan · 18/07/2017 00:40

I hope it's ok to post here. Don't really have the energy to say much tonight but the shit has hit the fan big time in my world re my parents and I could really use support. I will post properly tomorrow but just needed to take the first step tonight.

lanouvelleheloise · 18/07/2017 07:29

Flash - I am sending you a virtual hug. It sounds horrible.

Chest - Thanks for sharing your experience. I know what you mean about the liberating-yet-painful experience of recognising a relationship for what it is. It's like a seesaw of emotions, isn't it? But I think it's better to live in clarity than any kind of denial or fog.

My sister speaks this language of the emotional snowflake, but it's always centred on her needs, if that makes sense. So she says things like "The occasional kindness does not make up for bad behaviour", but it's always others' perceived lack of kindness towards her that is in question, and never her lack of kindness to others. Yet she has done nothing - absolutely nothing - to ensure a continuing relationship with me for 20 years. She can't be bothered even to visit, or take any interest in my life. Every time we have a conversation it centres on her work, her stress, her life. Worse than that, she's actually been the one perpetuated the golden child/scapegoat thing for her own ends for decades, effectively excluding me from the family. (Of course, it's my parents' fault too for going along with it, but she has been the prime mover for some time). There was a hilarious moment recently where my parents finally insisted she moved out of their house (she is approaching 40, and my mother was run ragged getting her breakfast, cooking her dinner, doing her washing etc) and she sighed and said "They're just not listening to my needs". Grin

SpareBedroom · 18/07/2017 07:44

Flash welcome to the thread. Smile

Lanouvelle I am sorry for the crap you are getting from your DSis. She doesn't sound very nice. Flowers

I'm also the scapegoat with a GC sister but it's not to the extent you describe in your relationships, and my DSIs can see the faults of our Ps, unlike yours. So what I'm going to say is more from a theoretical point of view really and if I'm a long way off the mark, ignore me.

I'm just wondering how much your Ps are still to blame for your DSis continuing to be the GC. I know you say your relationship with them is now better, but it does sound to me as though you are still in the scapegoating role and your parents bear some responsibility for that - even if it's in failing to challenge it on your behalf. Do they continue to act in a way that keeps your DSis in the GC role? If so, they are by default keeping you in the scapegoat role at the same time.

Golden Children are themselves victims too in a strange way, so it might help you to think of yourself and your sister as fellow victims in a drama that is continuing to play out. It is possibly as though your parents have stopped criticising you in person, but they are now enabling your DSis to do so on their behalf.

As I said, your DSis doesn't sound very nice, and I too would recommend you move to LC or NC with her if she can't change. But if her role IS still perpetuated by your parents, you might find that LC with her affects your relationship with them too and you might need to prepare yourself for that.

There's a lot of stuff on the net about something called the Karpman Drama Triangle, which, if you haven't already read about it, might be useful to you. Flowers

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