"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

frami a 'normal' person carries on with their life (including holidays) until such time as they have to change their plans (e.g. if your F dies.) You would not be unreasonable at all to go on your holiday. You can't keep putting your life on hold - you'd be putting it on hold for your M here, not your F. And is she more important to you than your DH and DC who would like to have you with them on holiday?

A normal person would also hold the funeral until such time as immediate family can get to it. So the person potentially being unreasonable here is not you but your M.

So what if she finds out you were on holiday? The person you describe as your M is obviously selfish and horrible - why should it matter what her opinion is?

Your DH is right - go on holiday and take it one day at a time. Could you imagine staying behind and then possibly having to go to your F's funeral on your own without your DH's support? It would be awful for you. You'd want to wait for him to get back anyway.

Your M is messing with your mind. Put your DH, DC and yourself first. Then your F next. And put your M's wants at the bottom of the pile!

What Spare wrote in its entirety. Do take heed.

Do not let your own fear, obligation and guilt (FOG) of your mother that is of your mother's doing here continue to dominate your life. She trained you well to serve her at your overall expense and the conditioning is obvious.

I think I'm trying to think: "who am I doing this (or not) for?". If the answer is anyone else than me or my son, someone else who genuinely needs me, I try to have a rethink. There is no point in living your life to please your M or D. How will you feel when they pass away and you've never had the kind of life you wanted for yourself, being too busy feeling guilt and obligation towards people who have made your past difficult and continue to do so? Easier said than done, but I try to think of that being the rule of thumb. The difficulty here is that if you've always lived according to how others would like you to, how do you know what you want? Who you are? This is what I wrestle with a bit...

Maybe M and D have learned something, as not as a single comment re. Green hair. M also saw my tattoos and just kind of went "why", but then she asked about them and muttered something about a "different generation". Much better than the nose ring crying and wailing episode at Christmas. :/

Frami I'm sorry for what you're going through.

I agree with all the advice you've been given - and the sooner you start to put you & your family (ie DH & DC) first the better for all of you

Have your holiday with your family. It won't change a thing for your poor old dad - your M will be revelling in the power and attention her husband's condition will be providing for her - I speak from experience..

Frami I am so sorry it sounded mentally exhausting. Balancing your response to her demands and your potential lose is so much and you are right to vent/ feel confused. Reading your posts I had two thoughts your mother is preventing you from preparing your up coming lost and I am sure that's not something a good parent would do. Also it's either so close you have to be there or it's a family getogether and you bring the children, it can't be both and her comments suggest to me it is more about her needs. Are you able to spend some valuable time with father at this time?
Please don't sit at home when your family are on holiday, being away won't change anything.

Well I have been reading toxic parents, it's an eye opener!!
I haven't replied to my mums last message, as I am not sure what I want next. I have realised she made me her parent and I am really angry about that. I feel as an adult I cannot have needs or emotions because I need to respond to others needs first.

frami so sorry you are going through this. You are fully entitled to do whatever you feel is right for you and your own family. Your m does not own you or any grief you feel.

toomuch you are completely correct in that I'm very much triggered by the Richard Grannon course but I was also triggered by the Pete Walker books. The course is more about evaluating your emotions and looking for the causes than looking at relationships. I'm going to stick with it, although I think it might take some time to get through.

Well my birthday has been and gone a week ago and I've heard nothing from my m. Mostly I'm relieved but there is still a small part of me that holds out hope that I've just misunderstood her, that part hurts. I feel a bit pathetic for that tiny bit of hope, even though she's made it blatantly obvious that she has no regard for me at all.

Gone very quiet!

Have been reading all your posts and following all of your journeys.

How is everyone?

I'm fine, but I had nothing too bad going on anyway. Hope everyone else is ok, too.

I'm currently finding it hard to not be in a full parental mode (still staying with my parents), as my parents sort of take over and say it's their house and their rules. But I do protest the illogical or inconsistent ones. Only 7 more days to go. Thank god. Using the time constructively to do some work on my computer and stay away from them.

DS is happy, so I try not to be too picky about how my parents grandparent him, unless I think it's necessary. Right now they've gone out on the boat and I've stayed behind to work.

Hi both - I was thinking it had gone a bit quiet too .

Not much going on here - 3 months of NC with my M now which seems bizarre when I write it down - just because she always had to be involved in everything - but since her rage at me on the phone, nothing - she probably doesn't even know I changed the locks, which is kind of annoying when it took me so long to 'dare' change them .

I am feeling remarkably calm and happy considering, which just goes to show how little I have lost by not seeing her. The only thing I find myself struggling with is that she could drop my DC so instantly, after years of acting like a doting grandma. I completely accept that she didn't care about me, which I suppose isn't exactly 'normal' in itself, but I still must have believed deep down that she did care about them, or at least wouldn't be able to drop them so easily. Its a bit of a head fuck to be honest.

Not that i want them anywhere near her anyway - but I always imagined I would have to put the boundaries there, not that she's just not bother anymore...

Hi everyone

Things are okay with me. I saw my parents today for a quick coffee and it was fine. My M is preoccupied with the house and I'm pretty boring so she's not too interested in being with me for long, which is good. She gave me an eternity ring today that belonged to my grandma, my dad's mum, they 'found' it when moving. She then told me it's not worth much, she'd taken it to the jewellery shop to have it valued and it's worth about a tenner weighed in. It made me briefly wonder if it had have been worth anything it'd have been passed on to me but I can't be arsed with thinking about it because I'll never be on her wavelength. Not sure what to do with it, I don't want it and I'll never wear it. My choice is either to give it to my son, I doubt he'd wear it but he might like it because it's family treasure lol, or just put it in my drawer.

Treacle it is a bit strange that she had it valued before she gave it to you. Anyway it's yours now to do what you want with - don't feel you have to keep it just because she gave it to you. Presents are subtle things that people sometimes use to keep other people where they want them to be.

All fairly quiet with my M who after the broken ankle débacle is now managing very well with a walking cast. I just have to work out now how to go back to my previous 'boundaried' system of ringing her and then holding my nerve and waiting (sometimes weeks) for her to ring me the next time, so it's not me doing all the running. While she's been immobilised I've returned to ringing her more frequently like I used to, because I felt I ought to. I need to gradually lengthen that back out again once the cast is off in a couple of weeks.

It's been interesting actually who of my M's 'friends' has been helping her out during her ankle issues. Her 'closest' friends have hardly helped at all, but she's had a lot of probably unnecessary help and sympathy from people she hardly knows. It's almost as though she knows she can only play the 'poor helpless me' card with people who don't know her that well, who don't realise she's actually quite intelligent and resourceful and not at all badly off.

We (DH, DD and I) are going to see her for the day in August, but DD has now got herself a summer job and mightn't be able to go. I don't think this'll go down well, but I'm going to try to style it out. DD is almost 18 and I think she's old enough to decide for herself whether she wants to see my M anyway, even if she hadn't been working. So I'm thinking the best strategy will be to tell my M about the job in general terms next time we speak, but not mention the possibility of DD not going until as late as possible, to minimise the fuss about it.

Flump its strange isn't it how they go from so much involvement to so little. My M was the same when I put my boundaries in place. I'm sure there's an explanation if I could just get inside her head, but I'm not sure I can be bothered any more.

Hi everyone :) all is not too bad here. Parents are on holiday so not much grief atm. Although I did get a snotty text when she was at her hotel saying we got here safe if you're interested to know. She hadn't been speaking to me for a few weeks so I think she expected me to come running to her. I just replied ok thanks. Then she went on to be overly nice like she had been speaking to me. Think it was just because she wanted to tell me how much fun she was having and then sent me 15 or so pics. Did make me laugh a bit. She's gone quiet again now. I'll enjoy the peace while it lasts!

Thanks Spare It is strange but it's not strange for my M. She is VERY obsessed with money and the cost of things. When my grandma died she got all her jewellery valued and only gave away the stuff that wasn't worth much. She asked what piece I wanted but the pendant I fancied as a memento was for emotional value, not its monetary worth. As it happened it couldn't be found. My cousin was to be given all the left over jewellery and she wrote to my parents within weeks telling them what she got (as in cash) for it all and what she was going to treat herself to, I found it quite distasteful but tbh my grandma was exactly the same so I left them to it.

I'm feeling the can't be bothered at the moment too, it's nice, it's nice to just be able to shrug things off. I'm hoping I can stay this way, at least for a decent amount of time.

Awful :( I've a ring from my GM. It's not worth much, but I like it. M has got the rest of it, including gold teeth or gold filled teeth from dead relatives (people used to collect them and take to cash in, where M is from). Kind of looking forward to hopefully inheriting something that macabre...

Ewwww lol people are odd yesyes I have a sixpence that my grandads brother swallowed and it passed through and they fished out, it's on a watch fob chain of my great grandads . Family artifacts lol

I've given the ring to my son, he was chuffed to bits. I didn't tell him the back story, I just said that it used to belong to grandma and that gran and grandad found it when they moved and if he wants he he can have it. He loves it and has sqirrelled it away upstairs somewhere.

He's so happy, there was no need to spoil it with tales of value or lack of.

Haha! Poo sixpence... :)

I had a complete cast of my own teeth and mouth made for dental work when I was 7. Sadly I seem to now have lost it. It was so cool... Still have all my wisdom teeth in a baggy, though.

And agree that value is subjective and tied with emotion for most people. Some seem to be all about the money and new things, though [fake cough: DP, DP!]

Sorry bit of a brain dump.

Got a text from my DM on her hols last night asking how my DS was. Just made me think of the time last year when i was struggling badly with PND and my little boy had been rushed in by ambulance to A&E resus. Obviously i was terrified, upset, tired, emotional. This happened 2 days before my DM birthday. I'd been asking her previously for 2 weeks what she would like, her response was i dont know. After we came out of hospital the next day, i text saying please let me know so i can get you something. She got in a mood with me and said i should have arranged it earlier and went off in a rant. I couldnt believe it, she knew we had been in hospital and how worried i was. I replied saying i've just been in hospital with my DS who is not very well and i've asked you for 2 weeks. She said something like well thanks for my present, i replied saying i never said i werent going to get you anything i've just been very stressed these past few days. Looking back i cant believe she was more concerned over her present than the health of her grandson. Very selfish and self centred.
This popped into my head as she never asks how im doing even though i had PND and she had seen me cry numerous times. She knew i was in a refuge but didnt ask how i was coping being in there. She just never asks how i am and its always me me me! Just starting to make me angry/upset that she cant ask how her DD is.

Thanks Chest for restarting the thread! I kept wondering when it would start back up.

I wonder how @frami is doing?

I have a 5 cent coin that DD1 swallowed when she was 3. I also kept a lock of hair when the kids were babies. I suppose I'll save their baby teeth but you have to ask yourself at what point does it look like you're saving up for a voodoo ritual

Regarding presents and money and stuff - when we got married my old neighbour from when I was a kid gave us a dinner service. It wasn't an expensive one and I remember my mother sniffing and saying "I would have bought that for you if I'd known you would have liked it." I'm not even fussy about presents, if someone gives me something that I wouldn't have picked myself I'll happily use it knowing it was given with love. She spent quite a lot of money on presents my mother, but the problem was they were always presents for that ideal daughter that she wished she'd had.

Chocolate that's bloody awful. It becomes so normal doesn't it, and then you think back and it's like wow, she really did that.
Have you seen her recently?

We're doing OK - not heard anything else regarding my mother's sudden interest in Facebook. I'm more and more thinking it's one of my cousins being nosy. Hopefully nothing will come of it.

I have to admit I have all of DD's baby teeth. Seemed like a nice thing to do at the time...

I'm currently looking at DS's baby tooth that was damaged when he fell over and needed to be taken out last week. Maybe I should do an artful display of all my human relics on the mantle piece at home. Perhaps in a rustic looking shallow wicker basket with a feather, moss and raw lambs wool lining. I did love Blair Witch Project...

Yea I know at the time I was so angry but I guess it's become the norm. If I told people they probably would have said why don't you just get her a nice scarf or bag etc. If I were to do that and she didn't like it she would sulk/make you feel rubbish, give a fake smile while letting you know she didn't really like it. It's like a minefield!
Last time I saw her was Sunday briefly, I originally set up to see my dad at work to give him his birthday present. He called my mum and said he was going to see me and then she said she wanted to see my DS so I ended up at hers but she didn't talk to me.

I think I'll end up saving my DS teeth, I actually didn't save the ambilical cord like some people. It freaked me out

I think now that I've got most of it off my chest that recently I've been kinda pushing a lot of the stuff I'm remembering away, which is good for me to be able to do that rather than dwell all the time but I think pushing stuff away is probably what led to me being so unaware of the immensity of the effect she was having. I think I need to find a happy medium. I also feel that now I'm in an okay place that I'm in that 'it wasn't as bad as others' bracket and I'm not convinced that's a good place, because if it was it wouldn't keep being referred to.

I can so relate to the present thing. I remember when I was small my dad gave me some money to buy Christmas gifts, I think he thought it'd be kinda fun for me to chose my own. I had to buy for my parents and four grandparents but I spent the lot on one gift for my mum. She didn't even like it, it was a gold necklace with a pearl pendant and she never wore it, I never saw it after I gave it to her. I've always struggled to get something for my M but it's only these past few years that I've paid attention to what she does when she receives them, more often than not she'll open it and then place it on the table and kind of shove it away with the back of her hand. Once she even said 'what made you think I'd like this?' The only present she took an interest in was a candle that 'could have' contained a diamond. But it didn't.

I've stopped trying, I can't please her. I'm at that point where I know she'll not like it so I may as well just get anything. Is there such a thing as a gift list for narcs?

D is particularly bad with gifts. He says a cursory thanks, but things get never used and/or just gather dust, unless it's alcohol or sweets. He also takes one quick distracted look at any cards, even home made by DS, sort of says thanks, but leaves them lying where they were and continues watching TV (he is always watching TV). I think this might be more of an ASD thing (everyone in the family suspects it) than narc, though... I have given up trying to buy him anything non-edible/drinkable. And don't bother with cards at all (do not encourage DS to make him any either unless he really wants to).