"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I would not send the letter at all; no matter how nice it is worded your mother will see it as an attack on her and react accordingly. Toxic people like nothing more than a) a fight and b) the last word and a letter will give her both to attack you with and with both barrels too.

She is also not going to take a blind bit of notice of your words, she has never apologised nor has accepted any responsibility for her actions. They also rail against boundaries as well and boundary setting for such people can become a futile and exhausting exercise.

I would certainly now look into finding a therapist you can work with and also in this person someone who has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. Therefore the first person you see may not be the right one. Question them at length too.

BACP are good and do not charge the earth.

Am exhausted after a weekend trying to dodge verbal assault with DM. Got up 4am to catch plane arrived at parents at 11am Saturday. DM barely acknowleged me other than to go on about how bad DF was and how he would be dead by the evening. DF is now definitely getting towards the end of his life. Spends most of the time sleeping, and is so thin he looks a skelaton with skin brown cling film stretched over it. The day was physicall and mentally exhausting, sitting with no purpose, watching DF and making sure that I was never on my own with DM. She would constantly ask DH to take DFs pulse which was fine (he's qualified first aider). I would then here her on phone telling caller how DF's pulse was really weak and that he'd be dead in few hours. After all the stuff last week to get me to go over to act as night nurse, a professional night nurse arrived around 9pm. The long time care workers are still coming plus visits from local community team who help with end of life care. It makes me sound like a real b**tch but I think DM deep down, loves the attention. They are say how wonderful she is, she gives them all hugs and praise yet I don't get as much as a kiss after 3 months away if DM is "off" with me. After all the stuff about not having a stranger in house DM is all over the night nurse whom she's only known a week. The lady is lovely but at the end of the day is doing her job and when DF is no longer here will leave and do the same elsewhere. I can't really describe how long and exhausting the day was or how I got through it. Went to bed tearful, half wishing I'd never wake up. It would have been a lot worse without DH. Yesterday, as the day wore on it became clear from overheard conversations that DM was expecting me not to return home. I also had to endure continual passive agressive digs about family obligations, selfishness etc. My efforts to avoid being alone with DM were quite farcical. By 6pm she tried another tack to guilt trip me deciding that DF was much worse (he has got a lot weaker.), sending for the Night nurse early. I was careful to stay chatting with the night nurse but came unstuck when she went for a break and DH was out driving someone home. I ended up cloistering myself in the loo while frantically texting DH to come home quick. DM then decided Dad was so bad that she would have to sleep on the sofa by his side and tried to get me to join her but the nurse said no. DM eventually cornered me on my way up to bed but I refused to engage to go into the room where she demanded I go so she could "have a word with me" always the signal for one of her attacks. I just ran and got DH and let him do the talking. She quickly gave up as the verbal games just don't work with him. He reassured her that if her prediction was right and DF died before we made it to the airport we would turn straight back. We are now home, I am exhausted, there's been no calls from any relatives or medics so I assume DF is still the same. I just want it to end. Can't cope with much more. Will have to phone DM at some point tonight, am dreading it.

frami

Your mother is making all this really about her and you should not feel at all guilty for writing that. They love being the centre of attention. She will act the same if not actually worse when he dies.

My MIL also made her H's ill health all about her up to and including his passing as well. She then went onto rewrite history re their own relationship.

frami your weekend sounds absolutely exhausting. You have so much to deal with with your father's demise that having your mother itching to make it about her must feel so rotten. Well done for staying out of her way and making it to see him.

sleepy I was thinking about Richard Grannon and his emotional literacy course. He is really, really good on narcissists but his focus is on people who got into relationships with narcissists rather than people who have them as parents. I know there's a huge overlap in those two groups of people. But I wonder whether childhood abuse requires a different approach, whether there are things that we find harder? So here's my suspicion: I wonder whether Richard's way of using logical thinking to analyse feelings might be triggering to us, because we have been gaslighted about our feelings more as children than you would be as an adult? Children's feelings are much more on the surface, they're a lot worse at hiding them, and they're much more honest than adults about their feelings, a lot more straightforward - it gives so much more scope for interfering not only in the feelings that a person feels but in their analysis of them. Here's an example. Once when I was about 11 or 12 it was a bank holiday Monday and my dad was working overtime and my best friend was away doing something with her parents, I don't remember what. I was listening to a sad song on the radio in my room on my own and I was crying, not hard, but my face was tear stained. My mother came in and was like "what are you crying for?" - not in a nice way, you know, an accusatory way. And I said "I was listening to this sad song on the radio." And she was like "don't lie, it's not that, you're in a bad mood because [best friend]'s family have a car and lots of money to spend on taking them out to places in the holidays and now that you're friends with her you think you should be entitled to that too, well I'll tell you your father works hard to make enough money to look after you and if that's not enough for you, well I'm sorry" and so on and so on. No bloody wonder I don't enjoy interrogating my motives! Any time I ever spoke to her about negative feelings - nah, let's be honest, any time she ever interrogated me about my feelings, because I tried not to show them from an early age - an interpretation would be forced on me that showed me being as nasty as she could imagine. When I am very unhappy and speculating about why, I get a very strong inner critic response saying basically you're an arse, and a strong feeling of dread. I wonder if it is similar with you, sleepy? And that might be why the Grannon course is proving difficult?

Flump see your description of your dad, I could have written that. He was exactly the same, so scared about my mother. I remember (and it's amazing to me that we could have had this conversation, and then gone back home to our roles) once asking him why he didn't leave my mum, and he said he didn't want to leave me behind, that he wasn't at all confident about getting custody. All well and good but I was 14 at the time! I think at that point a family court would have taken my wishes into account. But it was like that with everything. If you pushed him, he had reasons for why he stayed and took all the shite - but I don't think he knew himself why he didn't do it. He was the epitome of learned helplessness - I remember once having to go the shopping with him and he couldn't pick any of the stuff even though he went shopping with my mother every week, was asking me what bacon we ate even though I had been a vegetarian since I was about 12. And he was really scared of my mum, I mean it was the only thing on his horizon. The morning I passed my PhD viva I went and phoned him, and he was like "well done, now wait till I tell you the trouble I got into with your mother". When he was near retirement age he developed Alzheimer's, and once when I was visiting he confessed that he couldn't do his job any more, but he was too scared to tell my mother, because when he'd been let go from his previous job she'd gone mental at him and basically bullied him straight back up the job centre. I offered to speak to her about it (the reason she'd given that it was so important that he went back to work - with their house paid off, and my dad onto a generous works' pension - was that she wanted there to be money to leave to me. As if I'd have expected my wee dad to go out and work when he was ill just to leave me a legacy - even if I'd been that much of an arse, I was about 50/50 whether she'd leave me anything or donate it to the cat and dog home anyway - I guess by now the future of those muts and moggies is secure ) but he was too scared even for me to speak on his behalf. It was bloody tragic.
Since I've been in recovery and NC from my mother, I've read loads of stuff about enablers and how they perpetuate abuse and I've tried looking at my dad from that angle, just to see if it provided me with any insights that helped me move forward. But, you know, I just can't see it as anything near the same as my mother. My dad himself had a positive effect on me - I learned how to love from him, and I know I was loved. He didn't benefit from being with my mother - if he'd got the courage together as a young man to leave, if he'd met someone nicer - he'd have had a much happier life. I know that the textbooks talk about enablers getting something out of the deal, but what my dad got was so marginal - it was like someone stranded in the desert, and there's a well that gives them enough water to stay alive, and if they could just go 2 days they'd be out of the desert and in a lovely place with all the water they could drink, but they don't have enough water to get through those 2 days. Does that analogy work?
I think it's pretty standard that abusive people were abused themselves - both my parents came from very difficult circumstances, although I know more about my dad's than my mother's - and I suppose that should give me some sympathy for my mother, especially as they say the abuse that causes NPD happens in the very early years of life. But I can't help preferring people like my dad whose difficulties never actively hurt anyone else.

vera I sent my mother a NC letter once she got another family member involved in trying to find my address (I moved around the time of NC). The only reason I did it was so that if any of them came back saying "she wants to talk, she doesn't understand what she's done" I could point them to the letter and tell them to fuck off. I don't know what I think about that whole process that the Toxic Parents book suggests, LC and letters and negotiation and all the rest of it - it feels to me like arse covering tbh, she doesn't want to be accused of telling people to go straight to NC without knowing all the ins and outs of each individual case. The letter and the process and stuff give a chance for the adult child to confirm whether the parent is capable of change, I suppose. I considered doing the whole process with my mother but the thought of it exhausted me and to be honest, my mother could 100% turn over a new leaf and apologise for everything and generally do everything that a person could wish for in terms of atonement and I still wouldn't let her in my house, not at this point. If she wants to get healthy, she can go and do that with other people. Sorry, IDK if any of that helps really does it? One thing I would say - try and think what you want out of sending this letter. I suspect your chances of getting a straight apology or an acknowledgement of your feelings are pretty slim, and because of that if I were you I would hesitate to put anything in the letter that she doesn't already know or anything that you're particularly sensitive about or find triggering. If you're sending the letter for reasons like mine, that you don't want her coming back saying "why are you doing this?" then keep it factual, give 2 or 3 of the worst instances of abuse, tell her you want NC and leave it at that. But like Attila says, she will probably take it as an attack. Christ, these people interpret as an attack when someone offers them a seat on the bloody bus, never mind popping their bubble on what perfect mothers they absolutely weren't.

Oh blimey atilla and toomuch I was hoping that the letter would at least do the thing she likes most, which is to draw a line under it and start again. (everything became undiscussable once she had said her piece). I am not yet at the total NC point, I am already at LC and struggling to do any contact at the moment but I keep holding out hope for change. I feel a bit defeated now, especially as my letter took so much out of me to write. I will sit on it a few days and see how I feel. I had promised myself that today I would call her and then I couldnt bear to so I wrote the letter instead.

I take your points that it could be a red rag to a bull, I was so invested in the Forward approach that I hoped it might be a way to reopen a dialogue. She says she wants things to be different, she says we cannot go on as we are so (gullible me) beleives her and tries to make it work somehow.

I have a sicky feeling in my stomach that she is going to call me tonight. We shall see. I wont call her.

nora remember we are just randoms off the internet. If you want to keep trying with your mother, you don't need to let us put you off. As you can see from my post, I'm really very cynical and "over" my adult relationship with my mother, so my advice is coming from that place.

I would just say, if you do send the letter, only put things in that you're going to be comfortable with if she denies it or argues with you about it. If you get a positive response, if a dialogue opens, then maybe you could share some of the more painful things then? Just a suggestion to make the process a bit easier. And do you have any support? Your DP thinks you should let sleeping dogs lie, am I right? I think you could do with some support, whether that's therapy or a supportive friend who will listen. This is a hell of a big thing to take on all on your own.

frami
She will act the same if not actually worse when he dies.

This in spades. Once he's gone, all your mother's narcissistic supply will be gone overnight, and you'll feel a lot of sympathy for her and it will be harder to resist her. My mother tried it on with me the day before my dad's funeral - like yours, she waited till my DH was out of the way.

Vera If she says she wants things to be different and she says we can't go on as we are, why are you doing all the hard work?

I had to ask myself the same question recently. I have always reacted exactly the same, I had the role of fixing issues and problems but once I realised that's what I did I resigned. I didn't tell anyone, I didn't announce it, I just stopped fixing and sorting and spending all my head thoughts on trying to make my M happy. It was a shit role anyway, I never seemed to manage it successfully. I still see mine but I'm low contact and I take no notice of her many moans and gripes. I was worried she'd say something about me not dancing to her tune but I have perfected a shrug that lets her know that I can't do anything about that. I have realised that although my M might see me has an extension of her, I don't see her as one of me, her unhappiness with the way things are are for her to sort out. Think... Not my circus, not my monkeys.

toomuch re Richard Grannon, I watched a YouTube video of his and he made me feel quite uncomfortable. It was weird. Eventually I decided it was because he was being quite persuasive (and maybe doing some NLP stuff I was only subliminally aware of?) and I know from other instances that I instinctively distrust persuasive people. I thought this was either because I'm just naturally cynical (though that doesn't really fit with me generally) or because as I've said before I have a religious background and maybe that's made me wary of people peddling how I should think or feel. But you could be right and there was some gaslighting when I was a child. I don't remember anything specific but when I read in the Codependency for Dummies book the bit that explained how if your parents failed to mirror your emotions properly when you were very small this would stunt your emotional development - that definitely resonated. So something for me to think about. Sleepy that probably doesn't help you much though.

nora for what it's worth I have a letter saved on the PC but have never sent it to anyone. I can just imagine the uproar, upset, flying monkeys etc that would ensue if I did. But then I am not NC, just LC. The fact that it's there and I could send it if I wanted to is enough for me. I guess the key here is what the letter us for. I don't feel I owe my M an explanation because I don't have anything to explain as I'm the wronged party. I have something to SAY, but that's different and it doesn't matter whether she hears it or not, it just matters that I've said it.

I did the letter thing, long time ago, it was copied and sent out to other family members, very sensitive personal information, to humiliate me I presume
So yeah, there was a scorched earth response
Still it got her out of my life and made her show true colours

I have to say, although I did find the Toxic Parents book interesting and helpful in some ways, the chapter about confronting your parents left me cold. I knew as I was reading it that I could not do that and it would just leave me vulnerable to more of my M's gaslighting and belittling.

Toomuch your analogy works well. My dad was certainly not 'happy' or in a position where he was gaining anything worth having by enabling my M - I suppose he was just allowed to be there, rather than having to leave his home, or have my M leave him.

bad sorry just catching up. Yes he does sound similar to alot of the other dads on here. Its funny because i always thought he was strong, whereas he gives into my mums behaviour to have an "easy" life. My dad does go out and socialise alot and my mum doesnt really say too much about it. The drama tends to start if my mum wants something or to go somewhere and is told no. She will then resort to acting like a child and sulk/silent treatment or full on arguing. Or if he challenges her opinion. I would definetly say throughout their relationship she has been abusive in all aspects.
As people have said in previous posts, its likely that your parents coming from an abusive background. My DF definitely did and hasnt spoke to his DF in a big number of years. Its only recently my DM has shared parts of her childhood. She told me her parents werent really around and her older sisters brought her up. She said she would act up to get attention. I think she felt unloved. I did feel sorry for her but then thought if thats the case why do you bully me and my DSis. Sometimes i think shes aware of her behaviour and other times i dont think she is.

flaming ive begun writing a letter to my mum but i have no intention of sending it. Its just to get my feelings down on paper in the hopes it makes me feel a bit better and i can start to make sense of my feelings. Like other posters have said i think it might add fuel to the fire.

My Mum turned on me too after the death of my Father. She used to belittle him all the time, then the days before he died she started to complain that I was just like him. After the death her full hatred was then aimed at me. I tried to carry on being supportive and understanding but it didn't help in anyway. Some of it was plain wierd, when he first became ill she would compliment me on normal adult skills like driving. Apparently I was an excellent driver and she felt safe with me, down to requesting she got in my car rather than anyone else. It was all a bit over the top. Then right after he died she started screeching at me in the car, telling me off, giving me none stop instructions, huffing at every gear change The change was almost comical.

I did write her an email to explain why I vanished on a visit to her. I had heard through the grapevine that she didn't understand and was telling people that I was depressed. It was very blunt but I kept it about recent events and not about anything wider. She has never responded to it, not even to disagree with me. So I haven't really had any contact with her for almost a year, she has sent me the odd email to offer me something, or to say she's paid for something like a subscription for me

I can't be bothered to respond to them, I may be wrong but I feel like she's trying to draw me in without having to acknowledge the problem. If I say thanks she can then think that silly Huldra is now behaving herself again because of her kindness. If I don't respond then it's nasty Huldra who ignores her generosity, she can tell people that she paid for xxx but even then doesn't get a response.

I may be being pig headed but I really can't the energy to have any sort of contact with her until she has some sort of apology.

Attila Flaming Toomuch I know she is going to be even worse when he dies. I've heard DM criticise people for not grieving in the way she thinks they ought. I remember her being really bitchy about her Sil widowed young with 6 school age kids. DM was giving out because the children were sitting watching tv after the funeral (this was pre-internet days) presumably to give their Mum a break. DM saw this as being a sign that they did not love their Dad properly. I will be expected to be suitably distraught while not outdoing her own grief and to provide her with the necessary comfort. She will want me to stay around for weeks maybe months afterwards (I'm not going to). She already started moves towards that, suddenly telling us to bring the dog over with us when we go the the funeral (she's always opposed this) but of course if I have the dog I have no excuse to go back. Not falling for that one, have dog sitting network in place. Mind you if I do as she wants and bring the dog it means we'll have to travel by ferry so if she wants us there she won't be able to have the funeral in the traditional 2 days. This is so so exhausting.

Chocolate

That sounds a little like my Mum, she also didn't have the best childhood. Sometimes I think she must be aware of what she's doing, she has been nasty to all my siblings partners and constantly digs at people. Then other times it seems as if she's so focused on her own hurt that she doesn't realize how she is.

I don't think she sees passive aggresive behaviour as aggression. She is very well mannered on the surface and doesn't tolerate swearing, drinking, loud behaviour, rude jokes etc She would never call anyone a bitch or tell them to fuck off. So therefore in her eyes she is nice and well meaning. But she sulks, ignores, cold shoulders, gives uwanted advice and comments, constantly give little looks, makes gasps and digs. You are left with no doubt that she disapproves. I sometimes wonder if in her mind that it's behaviour that's enough under the radar to be considered ok and not nasty.

Huldra your mother could be mine. She would never think herself agressive or abusive but she does all the things you list.I've spent my life walking on eggshells.

flump that's a really interesting perspective on Grannon. He is persuasive, and I know there she been times when I've listened to him and an idea has gone in under the skin and only made sense to me afterwards.
It's funny actually - on one of his videos he talks about how if you approach someone too directly with a new idea they will resist. But his indirect way sets off your alarms! IDK. I think he is using his powers for good. It's a worry though, with all these things - lots of vulnerable people and we'll known mechanisms to manipulate and confuse.

Hello, have been lurking on SH and found it incredibly helpful when dealing with DM and flying monkey DB. They are both coming to visit tomorrow and already have had multiple fraught phone calls and messenger conversations with both of them, and at least one crying fit from DM that I know of.

DM was stating they would arrive for dinner at 7.30pm despite me having previously repeatedly told her DS bedtime routine means we are not offering dinner, no socialising in the evening etc. DB stated DM was in tears over this, I rang up and asked DM directly what she was upset about. I have never questioned her narcissistic crying fits, she trained me to anticipate and wordlessly interpret what she wanted. I always thought they were genuine and just flitted around desperately trying to appease her, a prisoner of guilt and fear. Recently I have come to realise the tears are simply one of her weapons she uses to get her own way and she turns them on and off like a tap. So this was the first time I had confronted her head on. The rage in her voice down the phone that I had dared to call her bluff was astounding. By asking her calmly and directly what had upset her, I had finally responded in a way that had not only stopped her ridiculous drama in its tracks but also did NOT make me look like a bitch to flying monkey DB. I felt amazing, all the fear of her crying started to dissipate.

I have been practising lines to use on both DM and DB during this visit:

"You seem upset, let's continue the conversation when you've calmed down. Let's have a cup of tea"

"This has already been discussed and there is nothing more to say. Let's change the topic"

"I'm sorry you feel/felt that way. What would you like to happen now?"

"It's interesting you think that. However I/we are the parents and it is our right to decide so let's change the topic."

DB tends to screaming rages when he doesn't get his way and I have never tried the above responses so feel quite positive about my new toolkit. If it doesn't work and the visit turns into all hell breaking loose, I am determined to feel good about myself for having the courage to do something different at least.

I have used the broken record technique with great success in a work environment so will hopefully be able to stay calm, repeating the phrases calmly and/or leaving the room.

@flamingnoravera I think it is very useful to write letters, saying things out loud even just to yourself is very powerful in validating your reality. However I would also never send one. I think I would feel incredibly vulnerable and god knows I feel vulnerable enough. I would not want to further open the door emotionally.

@frami I am so sorry

MysteryCat

Whose idea was it for these two toxics to visit you?.

I would never have either your mother or brother in your house ever again if they behave in such a manner. Make their visit to you tomorrow the last time you host them and be totally prepared to throw them both out if necessary. Is it just you hosting them?

Your mother was not a good parent to you (an understatement) and your brother is her golden child, flying monkey (so easily manipulated) and fellow enabler. I would not want either of them to have anything to do with your son.

Your flying monkey brother sounds like a carbon copy of your narcissistic mother; he is acting in his own interests here and certainly never in yours. He is not interested at all in hearing your side of the story so his opinion is not worth having. Flying monkeys also need to be cut off as well.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

They invited themselves, of course! Yes, I know. It is just me in the day. I am hopeful that they can be managed. DM has been banned from staying in the house and will be staying elsewhere. DB is staying in the house but is on his last warning and will also be banned if he repeats his last performance (he is not aware).

I hear what you are saying, at the moment I am LC with them. DM is making noises about moving to be near us, I think she has realised I will no longer be making the 3h drive to visit her. I am banking on these noises being yet more attention seeking drama as she has had various schemes to move house over the years. However if she cannot convince DB to live with her again she may actually do it to ensure a narcissistic supply.

She told me last time we met that she had thought it over and had decided she wants to be a grandma. I corrected her and said you are already a grandma, that is not your choice to make! The way she said it clearly betrays her true thoughts and feelings, that DS is some sort of toy she is deciding to play with. I felt disgusted.

I may yet go NC. In my heart I keep hoping she will change but I know in my head she cannot.

I guess I am still minimising what she has done to me. It is a very hard habit to break.

I'm writing because I just need to vent. Really can't cope physically and mentally anymore with the situation with my DF and my DM's behaviour. Yesterday when we were leaving the night nurse said she would text if we needed to turn back. No calls came so last night I thought I'd better ring DM. I should have stuck to my resolve not to ring anymore but all the passive agressive digs over the weekend about how good everyone is calling etc got to me, and as nurse had predicted DF had only a few hours at most I called. DM answered the phone and immediately she realised it was me the she switched on the pained voice and ensued a "conversation" that was a variation of so many before, in which nothing is really said and I feel awful. It was made worse because DM had decided earlier that Dad wasn't breathing right and summoned my sister who's word were "he was fine when I got here" (she lives about 8 miles away). Dsis was not unsurprisingly p**sed off. However she has also started taking it out on me, doing much the same as DM (she's the Golden child) and she did last night. Again nothing really said but it was the monsyllabic tone and pa comments and hints from both of them for me to come back and do my share. There's a pattern emerging with DM deciding early evening that DF has taken a turn. DH pointed this out that it happened just when XXX had left. She is a close family friend who is the Irish equivalent to a MacMillan Nurse. She would not have gone if she had thought DF needed her. Even though she's not part of his care team she would have stayed till the appropriate person arrived. DH says it's just part of DMs need to be centre of the drama. She doesn't just want someone to be with DF when he passes but that she wants an audience to her devotion and grief. My Aunt rang me earlier. She is DM's youngest sister and is the only one that supports me, having been the victim of DMs vitriol for many years. She confirmed my theory that my her brother is acting as DMs Flying Monkey. She has told him not to ring her until DF has actually died and advised me to do the same. On top of all the other FOG there is the worry of our holiday next week. Our travel insurance will pay out if he dies while we are away or in the days remaining before we go but there is a getout clause which means they won't pay if we cancel because death might take place. I just want it to end.

frami

So sorry you are going through this. I would cut them all off except your mother's youngest sister asap.

At the very least you now need to further strengthen your own boundaries here because they are still too low. You do not have to call your mother and indeed hold your resolve here. Your aunt is correct, her brother is being used as your mother's flying monkey (because he is easily manipulated. He is not interested in hearing your side of things so he should be ignored).

What does your DH think about going on holiday?. He is right in one respect; your mother is indeed your father here as part of her need to be the centre of the drama.

I would go on holiday anyway; no-one least of all your mother can predict when he is going to pass away and she's been saying that he is going to die imminently for some considerable time now. I bet your mother has people running around after her like headless chickens. Its really unbecoming but typical of narcissists to make it all about them.

BTW my MIL acted not too dissimilarly when her H was nearing his end of days either. Again she made that all about her too.

Attila DH is of the opinion we should go and take each day as it comes with regards DH. The real problem is that there are no direct flights to where we are going and Ireland so that would delay any attempt to get to DM still further. She doesn't actually know we are going on holiday after the performance last year we decided to say nothing. If she finds out that we were away when he goes or that we are even contemplating going I will be torn apart. Whatever happens I am not going to her instead, but I am seriously thinking of staying here with the dog and letting DH and DCs go. Why should they miss out? They don't want to go without me and H says it's only money but it's a heck of a lot to throw away. All these weekend flights to Ireland are killing us as it is. My Aunt thinks it's disgusting that DM has never offered to help with the cost. Instead she moans at us not bringing the DCs.