"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I can't imagine all these mothers that would compete with their daughters... So sad. Mine is bad in other ways, but she does not seem to be jealous.

toomuch I completely get where you are coming from. I would say she definitely knew what she was doing, I'm assuming she has managed to get herself off a bus at the right stop before. It's just to show you how much power she has. I'm not surprised you moved countries.

provider I read a book called Mean Mothers, can't remember who it was by but I think it was free for kindle download on Amazon. Basically the authors mother was jealous of her and it was quite eye opening for me at the time as I always assumed that I was the one with the problem. I think that once you have children and the attention shifts from you to them it can be quite hard for these self absorbed mothers to deal with. Have some more to add but my baby is trying to eat my phone so will post later.

I suspect that for most of our mothers there are the same underlying motivations going on but it manifests itself differently depending on whether they got success in their own lives, whether we chose careers that allowed them to compare directly with us etc. Most of them want us to do well enough that we reflect well on them as mothers but not so well that we outshine them. For my mother there was a thing that is really weird but I think it's a hallmark of covert narcissists - that if she couldn't be exceptionally good at something, she had to be exceptionally bad at it, or mark herself out as special by having expectations of herself (and by extension others) that were ridiculously high. It was like her reasoning went "well even if I am shit at xyz, at least I'm special enough to know that my performance is unacceptably low". Her deepest contempt was reserved for people who were less than perfect at stuff but gave it a go anyway.

I wonder what is is that flips the switch
I don't know, but whatever it is I'm profoundly grateful. I have lots of bad feelings around my kids stemming from my own childhood - I find it very stressful looking after them - but I am really happy for all their successes and it feels so good.

Thinking about the competition stuff... I think my mother used to attract attention by painting herself, to the family, as the long suffering mother of some sort of maladapted harebrained genius. I remember meeting some of them who live in another country, a few years back, and they were like "but you're so normal! You're so down to earth!" I mean FFS I was a development chemist working in pharmaceuticals, I spent half my working life fixing leaking lab equipment and the other half looking for pilot plant chemists who'd sloped off on a fag break when my stuff was ready to filter. It was not fucking code cracking for GCHQ or something.
This is one of the things for me with being in contact with the extended family, actually. I know she talked utter shit about me before I went NC, I can only imagine what she's saying about me now. If the aunties have copped on to the fact that I'm NC she's probably either saying I'm ashamed at being a SAHM, or that DH is controlling. But whatever it is, it makes me wary of the whole family, because I know that for years and years they've been fed all this bullshit. Easier to just quarantine my entire childhood.

It's now Friday, there's been no more calls re DF so I assume this is going to be like all the other emergencies of the past 18 months, and he'll carry on as before. DH and I are going over tomorrow morning, back Mon very early. I'm anticipating a hellish time. I will have no internet access. Mobile wifi doesn't work, barely any phone signal, so won't be able to come on here for support. DM will do her utmost to corner me and attack. Debating whether I should tell her we have a holiday booked. Last year she tried to make me cancel and go to her instead. In my head I can hear her saying "you better not have any plans to go away if your Dad dies..." (she has stock phrases). I am seriously thinking that maybe I should just send DCs and DH and me stay behind (in UK with dog not with her) just in case. Reason being that we are going to the US and if DM decides to be a "wagon" (my DS2's decription) about the funeral and have it 2 days after the time difference might mean I don't make it back. I really don't want to do this, my family don't want it. Best thing would be for DF to die and for this to be all over. Next week is my birthday. I'm not taking any bets that DM will remember. She has hardly bothered with anyone's since my Dad got sick. She "doesn't have time" to go shopping. Shops are within 5 mins walk, she has respite carers come in serveral times a week but spends so much time fussing, giving instructions to them etc that the time is wasted. Don't mind myself but would be nice if she remembered the GC. Youngest has never forgiven DM for not contacting her when she had her surgery. She was 13 at the time. DM has never asked anything about her condition beyond saying it must come for DH "as there's nothing like that in our family" (another of her stock phrases).

Reading all the stuff about competitive mothers. It has been suggested on here and by DH that DM is jealous of me and makes herself feel better by put downs and controlling behaviour. So much of what others have written resonates with me. These women must be produced from the same mould.

My m definitely hated the fact that I was younger and slimmer than her. Also the fact that I was starting to get more attention than her, I don't think she understood why any one would want to talk to me if she was in the room. We were recently both at a family party and she completely ignored me. I thought it was because she was annoyed about something but it occurred to me that she hardly ever speaks to me at anything like this. I remember going to a funeral for some relative I hardly knew, I didn't know anyone there apart from her and my siblings. I got really upset because she ignored me then. To the point where I walked up to her and she just walked away. I was probably about 11 at the time.

I was wondering if it was because she was making stuff up and didn't want to be called out on it but now I think she just can't stand the fact that I might have a conversation with someone she wants to talk to.

Doing the emotional literacy course is bringing back loads of memories for me. Apologies for the multiple posts but I need to get it down. Maybe I should get a therapist.

Another thing she used to do was blame me for her violence. She never hit me but used to hit my older brothers. I would get the blame for it. Usually they would do something to me and she would then really lash out at them. They would blame me and so would she. From the age of about 4 or 5 I would hear them screaming and crying and being hit and would feel that it was all my fault.

I have days where I think things weren't that bad and there's no doubt that I had an easier childhood than a lot of others. However, memories like this make me realise what a sick and twisted person she really is.

frami will be thinking of you over the next few days. If it gets too bad just get the next flight home

frami i hope your mum isn't too bad when you head over.

yes exactly the same with my family. We have to look perfect to everyone! I was in a women's refuge last year but i weren't allowed to tell anyone as quote her words "i have a sense of pride". She was very ashamed i was in there. Any drama happened in our 4 walls, no one was to know. Me and my sister had to just smile and say everything was fine. I got my father arrested a couple of years ago. Weren't allowed to tell anyone even the father of my child. Apparently its no one else business. Now if anyone asks how i am i reply with an automatic yes im fine. When deep down im not fine and im screaming to tell people what a horrible person my mother is.

My M wanted me to be much more outgoing than I really am, and she also wanted me to be an upstanding church member. I'm actually an introverted atheist. I've been an atheist since I was 21. But I spent my childhood being encouraged to do stuff like singing solo at church which she got the reflected glory from, and I ended up studying for a music degree partly because I think subconsciously it was where I had been made to feel 'comfortable'. I don't regret my time at University because I grew up there and I escaped and found myself, but I haven't pursued the music since I left.

I read Susan Cain's book 'Quiet' - about introversion - a few years ago and it was like a weight had been lifted to realise that many of the ways in which I'd spent my life feeling a failure - only wanting to spend a certain amount of time with people, enjoying my own company, liking solitary pursuits like reading/swimming etc - were just a normal part of who I was and not imperfections. This was before I realised what my M was really like so I tried to tell her about it, but she didn't seem to understand. I couldn't see why she didn't understand - like many other Ms here she's intelligent (she has a science degree from a time when women getting science degrees was pretty rare). Of course it wasn't that she didn't understand, she just didn't want to know the real me. I didn't fit the mould of the daughter she'd wanted.

She stuffs the church stuff down my throat all the time. I am supposed to remember who everyone who goes to her church is. I am supposed to be interested in the minutiae of what happens there. It is like she's relaying the goings-on of the Royal Court or something, the way she talks about it. It drives me nuts because I have no interest in these people and so much of what she in particular does there is about maintaining the facade of 'niceness' rather than anything rooted in reality or anything truly altruistic.

Sorry for the ramble - have been reading bits and pieces all day at work and have only now got time to write anything.

frami good luck with your weekend visit, stay strong and don't let her bulldoze you. We will be thinking of you.

So much about the stuff of maintaining the outward semblance of respectability resonates too. Our F was out of work several times in my teens - we weren't allowed to mention it to anyone at school. He had depression and anxiety and was addicted to benzos - also kept under wraps. F tried to talk to DSIs and I about it but it was never discussed in any other way in or out of the home. After I left home F was violent towards M and DSis - again it wasn't discussed. It was all about looking like the perfect happy family to everyone else and if there was any support going on it was DSis and I supporting them, not the other way around.

Frami I want to say good luck with your weekend but also, and I hope you don't mind me speaking out of turn but please think about going on holiday with your family as planned and not staying behind. I don't know, I think it's because i'm from the outside looking in but I think if you stay behind it might give the message that you chose your M over them, I know you don't because i've heard every single thing you've said but by going with them it will show your OH and your children that you chose right over wrong, that you're an independant strong woman and that you simply refuse to give in to manipulation and pressure. I also think you'll have a wonderful time and you won't regret it.

I saw my M earlier today, it's been three weeks. For the first time since the scales fell from my eyes I wasn't anxious about it. I have got so much strength from you all and from reading your stories that I figured if things got too much I would just simply walk away, that somehow gave me genuine peace of mind.

As it was things were okay, considering my parents have just moved house and are up to their armpits in boxes and things to do they were really very laid back, it was almost a nice experience. I kind of played into my M's hands when I told her that I didn't envy her (moving house), but that came from a genuine place because I don't, it's awful. As a martyr she appreciated my comment and the hour I spent with them was okay. As usual she asked if I wanted to go round the shops with her (just me and her) but I declined citing our dog is ropey so I needed to get back home. I suspect she's too busy organising the new house and bossing my dad around to be bothered with me, i'm thankful for small mercies. x

Had appointment Gyneacologist this afternoon. She gave me a new "perscription". Go NC with my mother!!

My mum was a bit Hyacinth Bucket with the appearances. Hah...

When I developed mental health problems in my teens. They were hid. My mother would eventually very reluctantly find me a therapist, but the therapist wanted to see her too to treat the family. She refused, as it was just "my problem", so she could not see why she would have to go. All this also had to be kept quiet from my D who raged at me if I dared to say how crap I felt (was anorexic, but crying because I felt fat) -"stop that idiocy! we have no such problems in our family!". Yeah. That made it all go away... not!! Still wrestle with disordered eating and a bad body image.

Yeah. Prescription N/C with parents would probably be best for most, if not all, of us! :) Now staying with mine and I have to say it hasn't been as bad as I thought. Not a single word about my green hair. I haven't dared to bare my tattoos to them, however.

Have taken care of the main issue I am here for - passport, so not a wasted trip. Also P are paying for DS's 1on 1 swimming lessons (he's a scaredy cat), which started today.

My P generally enable eachother. M enables F rages (he's pulled my hair many times as a small child, then slapped me on the cheek when I was 12, also he is so big and scary that even him holding on to my shirt at the neck and shouting at my face, made me wet myself at 15 years old) and my D enables M controlling parenting, emotional bursts and snobby world view.

I don't really know what I should write but I think I should write.
My mum is gorgeous and amazing in so many ways she draws everyone in, she's popular and fun.
She had me in her early 20's and from a young age I was told I was the reason she couldnt go to uni and therefore couldn't get a good job and this made us poor.
I was lied to about who my biological father was (raised by another man who I called dad) and if I ever asked any questions, as my school counsellor advised, she would break down cry, scream at me, tell me I was ungrateful because I had a dad, 'why do you need another?' And she didn't have a dad because he was dead.
I was always smacked and she would lose her shit with me all the time. When I was 8 she held me by my hair and was pressing my face into the floor so hard. On a PE sports day in year 2 I had bruising on my arms and my teacher asked me where it came from, I told her it was from the tug of war we had participated in. I don't know how I knew to lie to protect my mum but I did.
My dad was so lovely and would stand in front of my mum if she was going to hit me but he often would leave the house too when she'd be verbally abusive to him and then that would leave me to deal with it. I cradled her at times as she cried for being so horrible to me.
We didn't speak for a year when I fell pregnant as she was so ashamed (I was 16/17) and I was kicked out and lived with my grandmother.
The reason I'm writing this really is because I have two children now and I've started to lose my shit. I've never hurt them or said the things she said but I get so upset. I've sat and cried and cried in my room when they have gone to bed because they made me that cross. And I'm not sure if it's normal to feel like that sometimes or not. I am now in the process of leaving an abusive relationship, and I hate writing that because I feel like it makes me look weak and introverted (no disrespect to anyone else I'm purely speaking about myself) and I'm really not either of those things. I love him so much but he is exactly like my mum. He has completely broken me emotionally and recently physically. I am so worried for our children growing up like me and honestly I am so overwhelmed at the moment that I have considered suicide. I would never ever do it but I always almost wished I could. But then I remember I have 2 beautiful children that would either be raised by him or her and I cant bare that thought. I've made myself cry now but I don't really know what to do from here. I need so much help and I never realised how much I do need and I have no fucking idea where to start

Ohhbother: Please don't feel awful or guilty. You are doing the best you can and leaving a bad relationship is very brave indeed. I have done the same, but for different reasons. I didn't want my DS to grow up with fighting mum and dad who did not really love eachother any more.

I also find I'm very similar to my mum at times. Current DP is perfect at showing me a mirror and not enabling me like exDH did. In return I show him the mirror when he at times becomes frustrated and aggravated about about small things (not at me, but in my presence IYSWIM). As a result, I can no longer just feel like a victim about everything I choose to, but it still is hard to shake a lifetime's conditioning. I do find I can become strict and despairing about DS's sensitive and scared nature, but I am now able to be compassionate and empathetic towards him for the vast majority of time. And when I occasionally become angry, I apologise as soon as I notice what is happening and feel very embarrassed and awful.

I would recommend therapy, if you haven't already had some. It has helped me, but I have such a wealth of layered issues, I seem to discover more as soon as I get past one.

Thank you for that yesyes. I did get therapy through IAPT but I couldn't take my baby and I have no one to watch him so I had to miss out on it. It was a group session I think for mindfulness?
I don't even know what therapy I should be going for because I'm not sure what the biggest issue is.
She phoned me up the other day to tell me that in my WhatsApp picture (where I had given birth 3 days before) I looked 'ridiculous' and if I went outside I might catch some sun and not be so ghostly. I told her it's fine I've bought some dove moisturiser to which she said 'well then you'll look a big fat orange' if I went NC with her I wouldn't have anybody. I also told her a lot about my partner's behaviour and she always defends him. It's very odd.
I find it difficult because I was the only child that was treated like this. The others weren't always treated the best and were exposed to stuff they shouldn't have been but the actual emotional and physical abuse they weren't subjected too. This means me and my sister especially have very different views of our childhood. She did everybhobby under the sun and I would go along and watch and then be penalised for not having a talent or my only talent was eating and watching TV.
It makes me so angry when I really think about it.

You have a right to be angry. What was done to you was deeply wrong. However, I know from experience that anger can eat you up inside very easily. Consume your life. That is why it would be good if you could get counselling or psychotherapy. Ideally with someone experienced in attachment issues and/or anger. The type of therapy does not really matter, but the connection you feel with your therapist does. It's important that you feel like you can be honest with them and feel like they are genuinely trying to get you and help you. I would not personally recommend CBT as any gains can often be temporary and it does not address the sources of problems the way I think you might want to. However, it would be better than nothing to start with if it is offered to you. It can make the identification of destructive thoughts easier and can offer this to deal with various situations. However, it is quite "one size fits all" and discussing the past will not necessarily be on the agenda at all.

I would try to not care about what yourM said re post pregnancy picture. Everyone's body changes with pregnancy and for a lot, at least some of the changes last for the rest of their lives. I watched this really good documentary on Netflix yesterday. It was called "Embrace" by Taryn Brumfitt. This is a woman who became a viral sensation finally embracing her "imperfect" post baby body. In the programme, she travels the world and talks with a lot of people about women's and particularly mums' body images. Even I felt a bit more at peace with my body today after seeing that. Also, DS's private swimming teacher a pro swimmer and life guard trainee, 23 year old girl, looks far from "perfect" too, but she clearly is proud of her very capable body and wears a bikini without a second thought!

Ohbother I felt weak when I had to admit I was in an abusive relationship, it's strange and a bit of an oxymoron because it actually takes great strength. Looking back I feel I was caught up with other people's assumed perceptions of actually being in one of those relationships rather than the strength of character it took to say enough's enough, I'm calling it a day.

What happened to you as a child was terrible, you coped the best you could even when that meant learning to lie to cover up what was happening. Your reaction was your survival instinct kicking in, you lied because the alternative felt too dangerous.

I'm wondering if maybe you feel like you're cross with your kids because it's overwhelming. You clearly have the instinct to protect them and you care about them but when you've not had a good role model it's often easier to deal with the big important stuff but difficult to deal with the small stuff, the stuff that might seem insignificant. I'm just thinking back to a time when I'd dealt with a load of shit all to do with protecting my son (long drawn out courts etc), it was emotionally difficult but I'd done it and got through it, then on a lovely day out to mark the end of it he cried and created because I'd said he couldn't have a can of coke before bed (he was five!). I was unprepared for it and I was so cross and felt a lovely day had been ruined. But from his point of view he didn't know what emotional strain I'd been under, I'd simply given him a wonderful day where we laughed and we had treats and whatever he asked to do I'd said yes, it would have seemed very cruel in his eyes for me to say no to the cold shiny red can when all day I'd said yes. I couldn't see it at the time because I was so wrapped up in the big stuff. I still find the small stuff the most difficult to deal with, I actually think most people do, but if you can identify what the things are that make you feel that way then maybe tweaks can be put in place to make things easier.

Would anyone be able to make any suggestions as to what kind of therapy would help from having toxic/verbally abusive parents. Or any tips? I've been to 3 different councillor in 3 years.

The first was nice and i felt a connection with her, it was mainly self talking therapy though so i felt i didn't get much back. The next was again the same but i didn't feel a connection with her at all. The third was probably the best counselling I've had because i got alot back from her and i felt like it was more of a conversation rather than me talking all the time. She asked me more questions and made me think more. She was nice but didn't feel the connection and didn't feel i could truly open up.

Any advice on how to find the best therapy and what would work? Or any tips?

I would like to recommend Integrative psychotherapists/counsellors. They usually have a wide range of skills, knowledge and techniques under their belts, and are thus more able to accommodate any individual needs re. methods etc. They are not rigidly one "school" which lends them a refreshing humanity. This is my personal experience, but also makes sense.

I know a fair bit about counselling/therapy due to my job. If you want more interaction and input, I would go with either an integrative or art therapist. Or perhaps gestalt.

thanks yes. Is there any difference between therapy or counselling or are they the same thing? Sorry might be a stupid question.
I'll give those a look up and see if any are available near me