"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

i have posted this on the main forum but felt this thread is more appropriate....

This is going to be a long post but I'd be so grateful if you could read and give me insight on my situation as an outsider looking in.

Basically I've known for a very long time that my mother is a Narcissist. I was emotionally and physically abused during childhood, and there was social services involvement sporadically. I was also put on the child protection register a few times...

Because of this I spent the best part of my 20s very troubled and constantly fought back at my mum. But when I reached 28 years old, I decided I couldn't go on like I was....I was filled with so much anger and hurt and it had made me very unwell. So I decided to forgive my mum, and just accept who she was for my own sanity and also my DD.

I can see now that my forgiveness was really submission, as for the last two years I've just kept quiet and not challenged her about any of her bad behaviours. I guess I felt that having a mum was better than no mum at all...and apart from my sisters who are also troubled in their own way the family/extended family unit is completely non existent. Basically, I don't really have any family. , my stepfather passed away when I was 18 and my real father is a wife beater so I don't have any contact with him.

Anyway, the straw that broke the camels back was my mum trying to rip me off just recently.

I'm about to move into a new house, and I have been trying to furnish the house but I'm currently on ESA (support group for severe depression and anxiety) so I've struggled to buy a lot of the things I need. My mum offered to buy me some things for the house which I was really pleased about as she has never given me anything for free before (unless it was birthdays or christmases which she didn't bother with some years) I've rarely asked my mother for anything my whole life, but I've always had to pay her in some way if I did ask for her help with something. For example, she charges my sisters a fiver just to drop them into the town centre.

So she told me she went into home sense and bought all the stuff brand new for me.

( Background context) My mum is currently renovating her house. She has always been very house proud and over the years she has bought/collected a lot of lovely furniture/home accessory items which she has stored in the attic, ready for when she does her house renovation. I'm not talking a few items I'm talking thousands of pounds worth of house accessories/furniture. The house as it is now is rammed packed full of mirrors/lampshades and cushions and I suppose you could say she has a slight hoarding issue...

Anyway she brought all the new items round to my house recently, and well I was really puzzled. Because nothing had labels on or price tags. Some of the items had stains on, the lamp shade was cracked. And apart from one thing, nothing had its original packaging. Overall the items were in good condition but definitely not bought brand new. But I was grateful anyway! Unfortunately, she then started to ask me for money for the items to the tune of £1000 and when I questioned her she said "Oh you thought you was getting all this stuff for free?"

well yes I was. Because she went off on her own accord to get this stuff for me, I never asked her to get me anything. But what concerns me is that she has made out she bought all this stuff brand new when it's clear she has just done an attic clearout. I've confronted her with all this and she has said "I'll come clean not all the stuff was new" but her story is full of holes. I feel I should say now that my mother has always been a pathological liar so I don't know what to believe.
Sadly I've come to the conclusion that I can not forgive this as well, as well as all the other stuff and will have to go no contact which was a few days ago...

But my mum also suffers from sickle cell anaemia and type 2 diabetes and last night her arm went dead and an ambulance has taken her into hospital. From what I have heard from my sisters the doctors don't have answers yet. But all I feel is numb, is it bad that I just want to stay away? I feel like I'm a cold hearted person for not rushing to the hospital to see her, but I'm so worn out with the lies and abuse.

Flump on my iPhone you go to your friend's page, click where it says 'Friends' under their profile pic, click 'edit friends lists' then make sure 'restricted' is ticked. It'll hide everything for them except stuff that's public.

Seeing the stuff about FB I suppose I should be grateful that my mother is the other extreme and refuses to have anything to do with technology. Sometimes I wish she would at least learn to use text. She has even given away her DVD player "doesn't know how to use it". Of course it's all part of her control/attention seeking. Everytime I used to visit she would ask me to explain how to programme her heating system, as if I should know. One time she did this just as I was getting ready to leave, (has form for "urgent" jobs just when you need to leave.) I basically told her to read the manual and was punished by cold shoulder and no goodbye (frequent trick that really hurts.) but it was worth it. I've not been asked about the heating since.

bad im not entirely sure what it does. I think it just stops them seeing what you post on your wall. Well my mum clearly couldnt see what she wanted to and threw a wobbly so it must have worked!!
This is why i did it, to stop her having tabs on me.

Someone mentioned up thread that they wondered if they were narcissistic too.

I've been thinking a lot about this lately as some of my past behaviour may have been viewed that way.

For example in relationships I've had where I've been treated badly, I always felt that I needed to get the better of that person. This is definitely a trait my m has. It kept me in unhealthy relationships way longer than I should have been because I felt like I needed to prove they were cheats or abusive and it was like I wanted to make them sorry for how they treated me.

This didn't really work and the couple of times I felt like I'd succeed in 'getting the better of them' and was able to walk away, I didn't actually feel any better. I think this is a learned behaviour from my m.

It didn't actually do anything for me or the other person and cost me so much in terms of self respect. At the time though I felt it was what I should do, if that makes sense.

I try to question anything 'automatic' that I do now, especially if I hear my m's voice in my head while I'm doing it.

The point I'm trying to make is that, if you were raised by a narcissist then inevitably you will have learned some of their behaviours. It doesn't make you a narcissist as you have the ability to change what you do and see it from someone else's point of view.

Sorry about the rambling, feel like my brain has woken up a bit lately and need to get it all down before I forget.

frami my M is massively technophobic too. In fact she's really proud of it rather than being embarrassed by it. Growing up in the 70s/80s we didn't even have a kettle and had to boil water in a pan on the stove to make tea. I hadn't really thought of it as an attention-seeking thing but you're right - she loves the martyrdom it creates for her. (Not that it stops her persuading DSis to order her stuff on the internet.)

Ah thanks, will do that then.

Strangely enough, a week after my M asked me to 'friend' her friend, she came round one day ranting about how she was sick of this friend "going on about pictures she's seen of MY grandchildren and what MY daughter's been doing - she needs to keep her bloody nose out of MY life!"

I did laugh and point out that her friend was only looking at my pics because SHE had asked me to friend her but she just carried on ranting and said she'd probably not bother with her much longer. Apparently this friend has also just got a new boyfriend and "he's a foreigner so he's probably just after her money"....

God she really is a witch.

Hi One More Day

In your situation I would have no contact with your so called mother whatsoever now given her abuses of you over the years. You owe this woman precisely nothing. She is not worthy to clean your shoes.
She is also not a decent example of a grandmother figure to your DD either.

How does she get along with your siblings and how do you get along with them; have they been her golden children throughout?.

You are mired in your own FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) because she has also trained you over many years to serve her at your overall expense. You really owe her nothing now and you are right, your previous forgiveness of her was really you submitting to her.

Drop the rope she holds out to you and do not keep picking it up. I knew what was coming re her assisting you with some furniture so was not at all surprised unfortunately to read the outcome; she had you well and truly fooled. Disordered people like this use such as well to simply further control their intended scapegoat; she has no empathy and no altruistic bone in her body either. She has given you her scraps. At the very least now her stuff needs to be removed from your home.

I would look at Gumtree and freecycle for household items; also some charities can provide items if needed.

JustOneMoreDay is NC an option? If someone other than your m had treated you the way she has, would you feel guilty about not rushing to their bedside? There is definitely a taboo about not accepting this kind of treatment from immediate family members. Regardless of her health conditions, she has treated you terribly. You don't deserve to be treated like that and you don't have to stick around just to be on the receiving end of it. This does not make you a bad person. When you 'forgave' her, did you feel like you'd just been broken? I would say it's not forgiveness that you felt but you just didn't have the strength to fight it anymore. Sorry you've had to go through this

But my mum also suffers from sickle cell anaemia and type 2 diabetes and last night her arm went dead
I think in your shoes I'd be hoping that the rest of her follows suit asap
Apologies for being flippant

Morning chaps!

Justonemoreday if she was anyone else other than your mother you wouldn't question for a minute your instinct not to get close. My god, you were on the child protection register! Put it this way: what would you want your own DD to do if someone had treated her like this?

Sleepy that thing about wanting to get the upper hand in bad relationships... that sounds very much to me like you were recreating your relationship with your mother in order to have another go at it and win it. It's weird, when you talk about it, I have a massive feeling of familiarity, of deja vu or something, although I never really had any romantic relationships like that... I think with friends, though? There are a few people who I hung around with ages after I had lots of evidence that they were awful people, kept trying to reason it out in my head and going back expecting better. I remember having a moment of clarity on my bike one day - cycling through Islington on the way to work - and I just thought "is this the kind of thing that a real friend would say to you?" and suddenly the person, all her opinions and comments and stuff, I just didn't care any more. I wish it had occurred to me sooner.

Thanks for the Facebook sympathy guys! I've blocked my mother, as has DH - I do use restricted list for some stuff (mostly annoying people I used to work with, whom it would be impolitic to unfriend) but I am quite happy to go the full block in this case! My mother knows fine I want nothing to do with her. But till now I've not spoken to any of the extended family about it (not seen any of them either). Someone (the person who set up the account at least) is going to cop on that DH and I can't be friended, and then I bet I start to get questions. It's no biggie, but I don't like to know she's on the move, so to speak. I think that until now, she's been inhibited from any retaliation by a wish not to reveal to any of the family that I'm not in contact - trying to keep up the "perfect family" facade. But if she's willing to let them set up a FB profile for her, that maybe means she's getting bored - or that some of the family are starting to ask her questions.

And on the technophobia thing - they must all be sisters, I swear to god. A few years back my uncle rejigged my parents' telly setup so they could record stuff off their freesat box. The change meant that the freesat was now coming in on AV1 instead of AV2 or something. My mother was like "your uncle broke the freesat box, we just use the normal aerial now". I explained the change, wrote them out instructions on how to switch between the freesat and DVD playback, labelled all the cables up so that it would be easy to put them back together if they ever wanted to move the telly again (the event that had precipitated my uncle's unwise intervention in the telly setup) - actually no, I got DH to label all the cables and write the instructions out because my mother always said his writing was lovely while mine was illegible - even if I wrote in block capitals, like one word, she would stand there and swear blind that she couldn't read it - and all the while she stood there watching me with a face like a cat's arse. She didn't want to use the freesat box (a present from me) - she wanted to sit fuming at my uncle for interfering and at me for buying her a present she couldn't use. Far more fun than watching BBC4!

Sleepy What you said about how you behaved in previous relationships unlocked something that I do. It's similar but different, my aim was to prove people wrong when I felt I'd been misjudged. It's as though I couldn't let a passing remark go, I had to go out of my way to prove I wasn't 'whatever it was they assumed I was'. I mainly did this with women I worked with though, not romantic partners.

I'm seeing my parents tomorrow for the first time in three weeks. I asked dad if I should come and see their new house but he said it's a mess so we'll meet at the coffee shop as usual, I was relieved about that but couldn't help but feel it was so hypocritical because when we (my OH & me) moved house they were here from day one, mess or not and my M even got annoyed with us because we'd 'gone ahead' and bought the house without letting her see it first. I'm not bothered though, my Ms house always reminds me of being a helpless bug walking into a spiders web so the coffee shop suits me fine.

In the meantime I've been working on my relationship with my son. He's such a lovely lad but I dunno, sometimes I can't help but feel that I really get on his nerves, he can be quite curt with me (which hurts) and he's seeming so down but he won't open up to me. After having space to think I've realised that I ask far too many questions (conversational not intrusive but still... ) and I have a tendency to let him make decisions when perhaps I should be setting boundaries instead. I'm also doing that thing where I try to fix things before they're broken.

Long story short, over the past few weeks (gently, not all in one go), I've called him out when he was rude, I've stopped fussing over him, I've set boundaries and I've stopped filling any silence by stopping asking him questions. Just an example... he goes to the gym every work night, if it's dry he'll happily walk, if it's raining he'll ask for a lift there but either way he'll walk back. He might go to the gym at any point between 6:30 and 8:30. I was fawning by asking him every day if he would want a lift, even if he said he didn't know I'd ask what time he was going ... I was moulding my evening around what he might want. Now I'm saying if you need a lift it'll have to be before X time because I want to watch such and such on telly, or if you want a lift it'll have to be after X time because I'm doing whatever first. It's early days but the change is noticeable, he's started saying please and thank you and yesterday he bought a cake at work and saved me half.

I feel quite down though, my M has made me into a fawner, it's like a default mechanism yet it seems that that is what healthy people really dislike about me. I need to make that trait disappear completely but I don't know how. I feel conscious about it now, is that enough?

Treacle you're at the conscious competence stage of learning - keep going at it, the setting boundaries and so on. It's been such a short time you've been making changes, you've come so far! I bet you can change this behaviour permanently.

toomuch I've had similar with friends, some of them were pretty horrible people but I still stuck around thinking that I was being loyal to them by taking their crap. My m had lots of opinions about my friends and funnily enough it was the horrible, two faced ones she liked the most.

treacle so pleased you feel able to put boundaries in place in other areas of your life. Hopefully it will improve the relationship with your son. My own DCs are still very young but I constantly worry about being too hard or too soft. I think when you don't have any reference point, it makes it difficult to know what is reasonable.

I've been thinking about something else that happened throughout my childhood. Just wanted to know if anyone else had anything similar.

My m believes that she is superior and very special, she has quite a high IQ which perpetuates this belief. As her child I was bought up to believe that I was special just by association to her. Not superior like she was but the things that other families did, like going on holiday, didn't apply to us because we were different. There were also very specific rules as to what I was and wasn't allowed to do with my life. For example, she was too good to have a daughter that did a non professional job, she would have lost it if I had become a hairdresser. However, I wouldn't have been able to do a job that she would see as a higher status to her. She was a teacher but wouldn't have wanted me to be a doctor, or head teacher even.

So I went through life believing that I was different from everyone else and I shouldn't want the same a most others want as I was so 'special'. Mostly I just felt like a failure as I'm not a genius, I don't have any amazing talents and I don't have any passion to do any of the acceptable jobs.

I think I was in my late twenties when I realised that there is nothing wrong with just wanting a job I didn't hate, a husband and children that I loved, a nice house and enough money to pay the bills and have some left over for holidays and treats. I don't need to be someone extraordinary, I don't need some unconventional life and I don't need to make myself different from others just for the sake of it.

Realising that was probably when I started to lower my contact with her. The relief I got from it was amazing. The main drawback though was that feelings I'd suppressed for years started to come to the surface. I think I've spent the last 10 years trying to deal with it.

The support on this thread and the subsequent reading I've done recently have helped so much. Anyone brave enough to post here has helped. Thanks to you all.

Sorry just been reading the book toxic parents and needed to write this down. Wondered if anyone else felt the same??

Ever since i was little my mum has molly cuddled me and my sister, sometimes unhealthily. I dont know her reasons behind that. Maybe control. She would demand we help with the household chores, if we didnt complete straight away she would do the chore herself or say we didnt do a go enough job and do it herself. She is a massive clean and neat freak and even if you put your glass down for a second if it isnt even finished she will pick it up and wash it. Everything had to be perfect and as a teenager if we werent up by her time then she would bang very loudly downstairs to wake us. Sometimes even storm into the room and demand we get up. We were teenagers for god sake, i used to dance all week too so a lay in would have been nice. Anyway fast forward to now, she claims i was lazy and slow. I tell her im not lazy being a single mum looking after a very active 1 year old. But she wont have it.
I remember i had to pled her not to tell a boyfriend of mine because i know she would say that and bad mouth me. She says it in front of her friends and likes to make me look stupid. Its awful. I have said back no thats not true, but my dad will back her up and say im the most slow person ever and im so so lazy.
Sorry about the random rant

sleepy i just read your post. I cant say i've been through the same. However they did always push me and i did feel pressure to be the best. I kind of felt the opposite in a way as my mum would make me think i couldnt do things. She had quite a negitive attitude and i also think alot of her saying i couldnt was because she didnt want me to excel or move away from her. Shes even admitted to me before shes tried putting my sister off doing something because its dangerous or she thinks its wrong.

Thank you Toomuch that's really encouraging xx

Sleepy My M never voiced any dreams for me, it was all about what she didn't want me to do but these were reactive criticisms to my ideas rather than preemptive advice. She's never taken an interest in my job, I don't even think she knows what I do. The strong theme that has ran throughout my life, even now, is that she likes me to be beneath her. It's hard to explain but it's like she doesn't believe I deserve nice things or holidays, I don't have half as much as she does yet she displays jealous type behaviour if I get something that she then decides she wants. It could be anything from an oven to a hair clip, if I get something that she likes she'll not be pleased for me, she'll turn her head away and pout, then plan and scheme until she gets the same or better. I've just realised while I'm picturing that look she gives so I can explain it, her reaction, the disapproving pouting, it's to keep me subservient. Jeez! I knew it was odd behaviour but I didn't connect it had a purpose.

I've never wanted anything extravagant, I had and have no ambition, growing up all I ever wanted was a little home of my of my own and a dog. Knowing what I know now those two things seem significant, I think what I really wanted was a safe place and for someone to love me.

chocolate I think what you describe is quite common. If you need her for everything then she has ultimate control and can play the martyr.

treacle I never really got advice more being told that I either couldn't do things or she would give me a certain look, she also did a lot of huffing. Not sure she had dreams for me but just wanted me to do something that would make her look good. She definitely does the jealous thing as well. She has no idea what I actually do for a job but has told me she knows more about it than I do.

sleepy your mother and mine sound like carbon copies. Mine was also a teacher, a science teacher (so that made her extra clever in her world view). The withering look of disgust killed my life, I'd do or say something and the look would appear. She didn't have to say anything, but that didn't stop her.

I just learned to live my life in secret from her and told her nothing about my life because she'd always disapprove. I only see her 3 time a year and speak on the phone weekly to fortnightly and she still manages to push all my buttons and leave me in tears or full of anger. Toxic parents has told me that I'm over invested in her. I'm working through part two but I need some more tactics. She wants me to go visit her, I can't face it.

Regarding mothers' expectations, I think one of the most damaging things for us with the batshit crazy mothers is that a lot of their expectations and stuff go in "under the skin" - like, although I consciously rejected my mother's ideas, I definitely picked something up about this sort of awesome sense of responsibility to Do Something and Be Something. Not that my mother was anything big in her own career, far from it: she left school with no qualifications and then remained in no-responsibility jobs almost until she retired. She was offered promotions and on the job training but there was always a reason why she couldn't do it. I on the other hand was to use my brains to do something really, really impressive - her line was that someone "blessed" with a high IQ like mine (I was tested in school) had to do twice as well to justify their talents, or something. But as I got older and it looked like I might actually do quite well in reality, she started trying to sabotage me studying - threatening to throw my desk out because I had scratched it, and then the constant interruptions when I was trying to study - at exam time, the huffs and manufactured arguments would ramp up, and when I was halfway through my GCSEs she invited my boyfriend to stay for a week and then at the end of it told me I had to dump him or leave the house.

As an adult I think once I had provided her with not one but two (actually three - she came to DH's PhD graduation) opportunities to swan about a university campus saying hello to professors, she accepted the new order of things in which I had moved above her on the totem pole. It was weird. On the phone she would be oddly deferent, asking my opinions on stuff and sucking up, basically. But when she saw me in the flesh I think she was reminded that I remained basically that irritating little gobshite that she gave birth to, and then because I didn't pander to her the way I had as a child, she would get more and more angry the longer she stayed with us. Then stuff would mysteriously start to get broken and "lost", dramas would be manufactured, etc etc. There's one in particular that scares the shit out of me now. We were on the bus once with my twin girls, they were about 2 years old. We were holding one each. I said to her, this is our stop, and then I got up, and she got up - but somehow when I got off the busy bus and turned round she wasn't there. I ran up to the next stop where she did get off. DD2 was inconsolable. I wrote it off as her getting doddery and stupid. Man I was a fucking idiot. Now, I strongly suspect that was her rehearsing stealing one of the kids. Not that she would necessarily do it, but she enjoyed knowing what it felt like. That's the reason I'm so happy to be living in another country, and I don't like it when she starts to become active. I know most people would think I'm nuts for saying that, but I'm guessing some of you guys will understand my suspicions.

The strong theme that has ran throughout my life, even now, is that she likes me to be beneath her. It's hard to explain but it's like she doesn't believe I deserve nice things or holidays
I can relate to that Treacle, looking back it's as if she was always hoping for and trying to engineer my downfall.
I went nc with her about 11 years ago, recently she has been active on FB, i feel as if she is trying to lure me in🤐

treacle provider
I feel like there's a common theme. That all our mums haven't wanted us to do well. Mine wasn't because she didn't want me to be above her I don't think. She never listened at school, was naughty, said she was a bully (surprise surprise). She hasn't worked since she was 22, never liked authority. So I feel her lack of achievements she didn't want me to prove that she couldn't have done so much more with her life. I told her someone asked me to do a simple set of accounts while on maternity. Her response was "well are you sure you know how to do them". I did but she crowded my head with doubt. Sometimes it feels like if my DM doesn't believe I can, can I? Stupid thought I know.

Seems to me that mine saw me as a rival, i cant personally relate to that, I'm far from perfect, i envy and resent other people at times, can be vain about my own appearance, but i want the best for my children, i celebrate every way in which they transcend me, i hate to think of them suffering.
I am pleased at my daughter's loveliness, i hope that she makes better choices than I did, my mother didn't seem to feel like that at all.

I wonder what is is that flips the switch?

I get the impression that M wanted me to be as great and fancy as possible, so she would have bragging rights. She is high in her profession and I don't think she competes with me. When I was growing up I wanted to be a hair dresser or a dancer. M made it clear that I had to have a real profession. I.e. something you get at uni. Funnily enough she thought both medicine and law would be perfect for me. I think it's the prestigiousness she wants to wave in other people's faces "aren't we great!".

She brought me up like pp, telling me that we were better than most of the people we knew and that I should not associate with those "lower" than me. As a result, I feel both weirdly snobby and cripplingly low about my status. If I ended up working at McDonalds M would have to somehow spin it to seem like I was a manager there or something. Happiness was never discussed as a goal. It was something that would possibly come from success and achievement, but wasn't really important.

M's goal in life is to make others think we are awesomely happy and successful. Any public admission of slight unhappiness or imperfection would be frowned upon. She coached me to never tell people the truth about how I am. Everything is always either "fine" or "great". Funnily I am now in a profession that discourages that greatly. But I do a sort of half way honesty to most people. After all, very few people actually want to hear about the ins and outs of how you are, instead of "fine".