"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I recently posted about my mum and how I feel baited into arguing with her. After a weekend with another family member (a cousin who doesn't really know my mum) I was moved to try to attempt a repair or at least develop entente cordiale.

Just thought I'd update. I identified that I was feeling anxious about making an assumption that my parents would be too busy with the house move to see me on Friday, plus torn because I have resigned from the role of fixing everything. I started having strong memories from when I was younger, teenage, where I'd be given a prompt or a hint or a nudge of some sort or even asked outright to do something and so I'd try to please but invariably get it wrong. When my defence was either '... but I thought' or 'I didn't think that...' all hell would break loose and it would be my thought process that was the target, annihilated.

I feel quite sick even thinking about it, I can only re-live it so far before it's becoming very uncomfortable. I'm wondering if that's how they've damaged me, by constantly attacking my logical and rational reactions.

I know all that stuff they said to me about getting things wrong mainly happened over 30 years ago but I feel violated right now. I didn't have the maturity or insight to realise that I was being bullied or manipulated or abused, I remember feeling that it was unfair and that I didn't mean to upset them but I also very desperately wanted for it to not happen again. I've realised today that I'm still scared of causing that reaction. The thing is, and this is what's most upsetting, is it was my dad that would do the most shouting, not my mum. She'd just stand there and watch while it was happening although later she'd be pally with me. I don't even know what any of that means.

Sorry posted instead of hitting return :(

So I called my mother and said words to the effect of "we need to change the way we are to each other, this is not the way for two adults to behave to each other". She said she agreed and wondered where we had gone wrong.

I burst into tears and blurted out that I think it was because I grew up frightened of her and her disapproval. I told her I was scared to tell her this stuff but I was going to do it because I needed to say it. (I am 55). I gave her specific examples of the things she had said to me when I was a child. She denied they ever happened and I said that they have so she shifted to not remembering having said them. Then said "no body else has a problem with me" and "this is me, I can't change me".

I ended the call saying I couldn't continue because it was too painful, she said call me back when you are ready to talk again. It was three days ago and I've been re-listening to what she said (in my head). So she is saying "I'm not going to change", "it never happened" and by default therefore, "so you are at fault, you have to change because I am not budging".

My cousin says call her, you can sort this, but it's all on my mothers terms isn't it? If she says this is me deal with it- then I have to do all the work to improve things. And that just feels wrong. She gets to continue to turn her nose in disgust at me while I have to do meek and accepting.

I can't face picking up the phone. I cannot do it. But I cannot face having this awful relationship continue either. I want things to be better.

Am I being naive to think we can resolve this or do I listen and believe her when she says, "I can't change". I know I can change, but why do I have to do it all to make ok for her?

Hi all, hope everyone is ok today.

treacle a difficult thing for me to accept was that my dad was part of the abuse. In my head it was always my mother and I had a really good relationship with my dad. Seeing it all as I have been lately makes me realise that it wasn't just her and he also played a part in it. I think this hurts more in some ways than the things she did.

Just wanted to ask, does anyone else feel like they are different to other people. Kind of like there is something the rest of the world knows but no one told you. It's difficult to explain but sometimes I feel like I don't really belong anywhere and I just don't get stuff that other people do. Probably doesn't make much sense but it's difficult to explain.

flamingnoravera your m most likely will not change. She won't take any of the blame and will turn everything round on you. The denial is a standard thing, my m denied some quite horrific abuse towards one of my siblings to the point where she said that we should call the police and have her arrested if it was true.
Sorry, personally I don't think you can ever have an equal relationship with someone like that. It's either on their terms or not at all

Flamingnoravera I'm sorry you're going through this. I'm also sorry, I'm not a great help (I'm still kinda new to this) but no, you definitely shouldn't have to do all the work. You've come to the right place for help and support. You'll make sense of things in here

Sleepy Yup, with my M I'm not surprised but memories of my dad are painful. It's not even that he's been an emotionally loving or providing father but we do get on and he's kinda fun, we have a laugh and he never ever says anything catty about anyone or makes any demands. I'm suspicious that she was behind it somehow but maybe it just suits me to think that.

Treacle I spent the best part of my 20s and 30s thinking my DF's addiction issues were at the bottom of our family problems. It was only after he died and I started to see my M as an individual that I realised what her part was. We thought she was a saint growing up. I think it's hard to disentangle things when they're a couple. Now when I look back the moments of real empathy towards me in my childhood and particularly my adolescence all came from my Dad. Weird. Unfortunately it's shitty weird not nice weird to realise that you probably had two duff parents rather than just one.

treacle your m may well have been behind it, our dads would have been subject to similar emotional abuse as we were and so there would have been an expectation on how they should act. Difference is that they were adults and could have done something about it.

Hi Flamingnoravera

Its not you, its your mother. She will not change; this is who she is and its not your fault.

Unfortunately as you have subsequently seen, the sort of approach that you employed only works on people who are actually emotionally healthy. Your mother is clearly not and has instead given you the standard toxic parent responses so beloved of such disordered of thinking people. She really did give you a pretty much standard reply typical of a toxic parent.

Things will get better for you when you do not pick up the rope they hold out for you to take a hold of. Ultimately you will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. It is not your fault your mother is like this and you did not make her this way; her own family of origin are responsible. She also did not seek or wanted to ask for the necessary help.

I would also ignore your cousin as she is being a flying monkey here (your mother's enabler) and has her own agenda. She is acting in her best interests here and not in yours, she is not interested at all in hearing your side of things and so is best ignored. Your cousin as well does not really know your mother so should have had no say at all.

Changing your own behaviours to appease an abuser like your mother never works so do not do that. You do not have to call your mother any more; infact I would seriously lower all contact levels now to zero contact. That may be a step too far for you to contemplate but ultimately self preservation is necessary. You would not have tolerated this from a friend either, your mother is truly no different.

You do not mention your dad at all; is he still around?.

Sleepy yes I still feel like I'm an oddball. I think maybe I care less about it now than I used to though. But I've spent a lot of my life wanting to be like everybody else and never quite feeling I've managed it.

Thanks Treacle * & Sleepy . I am going to wait for her to break radio silence this time,

My mum remarried after my dad died. Her husband is a nasty bigot. I stumbled across a letter from him to his solicitor writing one of his sons out of his will because he'd made no effort to get in touch since their marriage. I found it because my mum wanted help with her laptop, it was open on the laptop when I opened it. Thing is, he cannot type or use a laptop, so that means my mother write the letter for him.

So instead of helping him to understand that this was cruel and targeted (he has two other sons) to hurt, she conspired with him to continue the hurt even after his death. How mean spirited is that. I am ashamed of her.

I would not respond to any attempts from her to bait you. You need to maintain a radio silence.

Your mother and the man she went onto marry after your dad passed away seem to be one and the same. I would also think your mother has been this conniving and toxic all her life to be honest. What if anything do you know about her family of origin, that could also give you clues. Bet her own parents acted the same towards her as well.

spare I've always felt odd too. I want join in but can't quite get the hang of the rules. I. It's want to be like others and can't bear the idea of losing my identity at the same time. I don't mind the feeling different any more. I think we all feel like this a bit.

Atilla yes, when we had the difficult convo on Sunday she effectively said I should be grateful that I wasn't beaten when I was "a naughty girl" because that's what her dad had done. I replied that I was not a naughty girl, I was a child whose behaviour was normal for a child. Her response was to ask if I'd never been angry at own child, I thought carefully and could honestly answer that anger at him was never a feeling I'd had. I'd never called him names because he'd behaved badly and my anger had not got the better of my behaviour to him.
She spat "well you're clearly a better mother than I was then". That says it all really.

Flaming I agree that this business of 'take me as I am, no one else has a problem with me, I can't change etc', this is their script.

Don't break your heart repeatedly, don't wear out your emotions because they are like cactus trees I think, full, but hollow.

My mother says 'well, if I'm so bad why do you keep coming here, why do you keep in contact.'. Hah. I do it, or did it, because all my family live in London, and it is 'expected', when I visit, that I will automatically stay at my mother's. I'd love to stay elsewhere! Plus I thought the dc should have a relationship with her.

But not so much now.

I did that thing that I think you're doing, of thinking it would get better, that one day she would 'get it', and it kept me on an emotional bungee rope for ages, swinging back to her all the time. It's exhausting, and it never works, everything is always on their terms.

Flamingnora I'm suspicious of my mother at all times now so I might be barking up the wrong tree but I'm wondering are you suspicious that she planned for you to see that letter on her laptop?

Mine often uses 'anecdotes' to send me a message, other people's children have done X to them so Y has happened etc.

Thank you Spare & Sleepy I'm going to ponder about my dad. I suspect it was triangulation because she'd take me to onside and bitch about him to me, she would have had more chance to bitch about me to him and quite possibly wind him up to boot. I also suspect it's different now I'm an adult because he knows she doesn't see me alone so she won't be able to make anything up.

Treacle no, I don't think it was a coded message re the laptop. But I do think there is a hold over me where she constantly refers to how generous she has been to me (and she has given me money, I've never asked) and how she will give money to my (only) son to buy property. If I were to disengage and go NC she would punish me financially. I don't need her help (now- I did- I was a single parent after being dumped and she helped me with money when I was desperate) but she wants me to be eternally grateful for everything.
"After all I've given you- this is what I get- you nasty ungrateful daughter".

My partner says I can only change me and I have to forgive her. I don't know how to do this when she continues to do what she does.

flaming it's true that you can only change yourself but why should you change? You've done nothing wrong. And forgiveness is nice but you can't force it, and forgiveness doesn't mean going back and allowing your mother to be horrible to you.

You say I can't face picking up the phone. I cannot do it. But I cannot face having this awful relationship continue either

Does it have to be a choice between one and the other? How about not picking up the phone, and not continuing this relationship in which you are still being treated badly?

Treacle If your Dad has stood by and let your M verbally/emotionally abuse you, then he is liable for that abuse too, because as Sleepy says he's an adult answerable for his own actions (or lack of them). Presumably there was something in it for him (a quiet life, maybe?) that led him to do that, but the fact is during your childhood he put his own needs above yours, which isn't the act of a loving parent.

Having said that, I think from my own experience that if there's one parent you naturally feel some affinity for more than the other (in my case I did find my F easier to get along with because he was probably more introverted like me, whereas my M is a raving extrovert) you do tend to excuse them a bit. I suppose it's natural to do that. Sometimes I wonder if I'm entirely fair to my M because of that?

Like I said before, while your parents are still together it's incredibly hard to sort out who is playing who. Probably they themselves don't know either.

I hope you find a solution before tomorrow, anyway.

Flaming your partner's right in saying you can only change yourself. But I don't think that means you also have to forgive your M. I don't think you can forgive unilaterally? Well, I think you can, but it won't work properly because you are compromising your own values to do it. I think the other person has to show some remorse first, and an intention to change, for it to be proper forgiveness.

Maybe what he means is move on without her?

I'm not sure about this forgiveness thing. Do we have to forgive ? What do we get out of that, and if the abusers know that we have 'forgiven ' them, won't they assume that means that the slate is wiped clean ? My darling mother certainly would ! At the moment, she is being 'mindful' and allowing herself to be compassionate towards herself.I.e. absolving herself of anything she has, or is doing wrong - like the "past mistakes" she made against me , according to our last [ January] communication.
I was bought up as a catholic [ least said] where the message was that if you confessed , you were forgiven and cleansed. So easy. [ not so easy to make up sins cos you don't know what to say when you're a kid. Well' I was nasty to my brother 5 times etc]
So no, I'm not forgiving, or forgetting

Pete Walker has a great piece on forgiveness on his website. He basically says as forgiveness is an emotion, you can't force it, and shouldn't have to.

Aside from that I have one thing to add. I understand to a fair degree why my mother was the way she was, and my dad too. There's dysfunction and abuse and tragedy in both the families. I know she had it hard. I know she had virtually no chance to grow up normal, and there's very, very little chance that she could change herself even if she wanted to. And I am really sorry for that, and sorry for her. But that's not my fault, and just because I understand it and have some compassion for her, doesn't mean I'm going to go back and throw myself under a bus to keep her happy. You know if a cobra bit me I wouldn't bear it any ill will because it's in a cobra's nature to bite when scared. But that doesn't mean I'm letting the bloody thing into my house.

I agree.

IMO 'forgiveness' only works when the perpertrator is genuinely sorry. A narc is never sorry - I have literally never heard my M say the word to a human. Sounds weird put that way but years ago I noticed she would say sorry to inanimate objects if she bumped into them - but she never apologises to people .

And moving on is good but only when you've worked through the issues and are ready to do so. Trying to move on otherwise just means you're burying all the shit somewhere and it will surface again at some point.

Flaming my M gave me some money when I was in a muddle coming out of a shitty relationship years ago. It was given as a gift - I remember saying I didn't know if I could ever pay it back - she said at the time that it wasn't a loan and she wanted to help. But OMG I have paid it back 100 times over with interest for the amount of shit it seemed to make her believe she was entitled to throw at me.

I never understood how somebody so horrible and who clearly didn't love me would have given me money - ie an act of kindness. But this thread has made me realise that for her it was currency that made me 'owe' her. When we had our final big argument I calmly said I would not accept her saying disgusting things in front of my DC anymore. She screamed at me that she didn't ring me to listen to this; she had given me money so I should learn some decency' (ie never argue with her...).

Fuck that for a game of soldiers

I do think your dad was an enabler treacle, doing what he had to to keep your covertly abusive mother happy. It was the done thing as well. 'Wait till your dad gets home'

flaming - this is gaslighting. I included a good link a few days ago to explain it. They reinterpret their behaviour - or forget/deny it - and more importantly, yours, until you begin to doubt reality. and eventually even re-remember events as being their version. Assisted by doing things like giving people labels - mine was ' make is such a worrier'. So and so is a star, a nutcase, unreliable , a sweetie etc. Enforced by the constant conditioning.Divide and rule basically.

I've realised that I'm not a worrier any more. I'm not that scared shitless little girl any more and unless I'm near my NM , I'm ok thank you very much ! Very much so. [ I went NC after the last incident. One of the best things I've ever done. Someone said somewhere that maybe we want that decision made for us by a 'final straw' event. I think that they were right]

I have also recognised that it's all one way, as someone said earlier. The abusers say whatever they want - but no one is allowed to retaliate, or call names in return. Because they're your parent / sibling and you are expected to be the good girl/boy. I say sibling because I can see that at least 2 of mine have learned overt behaviours are effective [ aggression, criticism etc] whilst at least 1 is more covertly controlling [ waify, manipulative]. Such a shame. Especially as it means they don't/can't make friends well.

Anyone else have a good label ?