"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Make I think my label was probably the opposite

I was always 'the worrier'. I was also 'always ill' although I realise now I wasn't, it was all just symptoms of anxiety brought on by the behaviour of my M. If anything my sister was the 'good' one (ie very compliant and 'no trouble,). I have always been 'hard work' and 'trouble' apparently. When DH and I got engaged my M told DH that he 'has his work cut out now'. Funny that 17 years on we are still very much in love and very happy. She still says one day he will 'find out what I'm like'. He hasn't yet though - I must be very good at hiding my evil side .

My standard response growing up was 'I didn't ask to be born'. My (birth) family used to laugh that they could remember me saying this all the time. Now I just look back and feel sad for the little girl who was made to feel she had to point out that it wasn't her fault she even existed .

I am the awkward one who doesn't follow the rules (i.e HER rules). I slept with long-term boyfriends before I was married so I'm the immoral one. (I've always suspected she thinks our failure to have a second child is somehow down to the fact that I committed the sin of pre-marital sex). I'm the unsociable one (because I never invite my M to stay overnight, or stay over at hers. I know she thinks this because it's been said to me by relatives that she must have said it to). I'm the unsympathetic one: 'Oh, I knew I wouldn't get any understanding from you...'. I don't know all my neighbour's names (by neighbours she means pretty much the entire street, not just NDNs) so I'm the unfriendly one. I don't necessarily keep all my furniture for 40 years so I'm the profligate one...

Great fun, aren't they, labels?!!

I think the way my M judges everything I do comes from a place of her believing that what I do reflects on her. She can't cope with me not doing what she'd do. Even at 50, I'm not a separate person.

I used to say/think that I didn't ask to be born a lot too, I mainly thunk it though as saying it out loud would result in my M raging about how she never wanted me anyway and how much hard work I was.

I was 'hard work', thoughtless, dopey, clumsy, in the way but mostly ungrateful.

I'm actually relieved to think my dad is likely to be an enabler, I was worried he was a N too but he's very quit witted and he loves my dog so I kinda knew deep down he couldn't be. My dad's mum, my grandma, had all the classic signs of narcissism and although my dad was a twin his brother who was tied to her apron strings was definitely the golden child (dad was a handful as a kid - as in he liked to climb trees and find worms - so he was ignored) so it would make sense for my dad to be attracted to someone like my mum and for her to be drawn to him. I know my dad has let me down but I don't feel cross or upset with him, I think it's because I don't see him as a passive enabler and because if he had have left her back then he'd have been leaving me alone with her. I get the impression he sees that she's mad and he probably wishes she'd disappear and give him some peace but I doubt he'd ever leave because he's not got the means, it's sad really.

Haha SO much of this resonates. My mother called me 'litigious' from an early age. Wtf? Why couldn't she just say argumentative?!

Mind you, I wasn't. I just didn't necessarily go along with her way.

Hilariously, I was a litigation lawyer for the first 15 years of my legal career! Quite telling.

I was the last to learn about the dos and don'ts of the family. I was the truth teller frankly. If we were all around the table eating dinner and talking, and my mother was saying 'this happened this way', I would always drop myself in it by saying 'no it didn't mum, I was there and she/he said this...etc etc'.

I never learned!! She hated that, that I would challenge her on her version of events.

I meant to post on here about a family 'do' last weekend. It was at Dsis's house so I had assumed my M would be there (as she always is) and had mentioned to Dsis that we would give it a miss for that reason, and that we'd just see them all another time.

Dsis texted me the next day to say she would really like us to come on the day rather than another time, and that she'd spoken to our M and she understood and was going to see them another day instead. That really surprised me - my M never keeps away from a family 'do' because she loves to 'perform'.

So we went and yes my M kept away. The DC all had a lovely time playing with their cousins and me/Dsis and the other adults there had a good time too. And the good/weird (?) thing was that nobody mentioned my M once; not at all; we were just talking about other stuff. And that might not sound like much, but if you knew how much my M likes to be the centre of everything you would know how unusual that is. It felt like she had just disappeared or died or something...

Anyway one other thing that came up - Dsis was talking about the upcoming school hols and said her DC are really looking forward to having mine sleepover (this is something we regularly do). I said yes of course - but then later I started worrying. My M is always at her house if I'm not. So is it reasonable to say to Dsis that I'm happy to have my DC stay at hers as long as my M keeps away? If it's her house do I have any right to say who is or isn't there? And how do I stop my M just turning up anyway, if she knows her GC are there without me?

The thought of that toxic old witch getting anywhere near my children brings me out in hives.

flump I think you have every right to ask your DSis not to allow your M near them when they stay at her house. Do you think your DSis is strong enough not to let her in when they are there? Does your M know your DCs will be there in the summer?

I read a saying a while ago which I've been thinking about recently. It's 'don't set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm'. Up to a certain point in my life this is basically what I did with my m. My subject choices at school, people I was friends with, people I stayed away from, my degree and the job I'm in now were to try and get her love and acceptance. It's all completely pointless with a narcissistic parent because you could sell your soul for them one day and they would still want more the next. Their needs are like a bottomless pit and nothing you can do can fill it. Not really sure where I'm going with this but so much is becoming clearer recently. Although I realised about 10 years ago what a nasty, vindictive person my m was, I feel like I've been living in a bubble most of my life and it's just popped. I've decided to go NC with her, if I hear from her again I'll tell her. The way she's treated me in the last year is enough, I don't even feel like I have to mention the past. Not sure what will happen with the rest of my family, I guess she'll make them pick sides.

Also, has anyone done any of Richard Grannon's courses? He has got a new one on emotional literacy that I'm thinking of doing. Just wanted to know what they were like.

I did The Discipline. I liked it. The daily tracks you were to listen to were quite like his videos, with sort of funny asides and daft voices and things like that, which I love, because it seems to neutralise the triggering effect of being told what to do. The course itself was like 6 20-minute audio tracks, a 30 minute video, and a PDF course handout type thing. It didn't have a lot of new revelations over and above what he says in his videos - felt like it was really NLP/hypnosis based, that it was more about getting you to accept the information at an emotional level rather than imparting more new information, if that makes sense. If you do do the emotional literacy one, tell us how it went?

Sleepy you sound really at peace with that decision, that's awesome.

Flump I think you have the right to tell your sister that your kids won't be coming for a sleepover unless she can guarantee your mother won't be there. That's not telling her who can come to her house. It's up to her whether she wants to invite your mother knowing that you won't let the kids stay.
Would it be any option to have the sleepover at yours instead?

Flump I also agree that it's not unreasonable to tell your DSis that you're not happy for your M to be there at the same time as your DC. She can invite your M at another time (as she already has done).

Is it wishful thinking on my part to say that it almost sounds as though you saying you couldn't be at DSis's if your M was there for the recent family 'do' has enabled other family members to start to think that they feel the same way as you about your M? It almost sounds as though everybody had a nicer time, not just you...

It's now been 4 days since DM put the phone down on me. I have to keep reminding myself how liberated I intially felt by saying no to her as I'm now racked with guilt even though it is she who should apologise to me something that will never happen. Had an accident on Monday, nothing serious, rather sore after with a bad cut on the arm. Found myself wanting to ring and tell her why? It's not like she would have shown any sympathy. I didn't call and am detirmined to hold out. I would like to be NC but there is the situation with my Dad which I have written about before. I really want to just sit and wait this time, but next weekend is the last opportunity that we have to visit until August. There are only 1 or 2 affordable flights left so I need to make a decision, 10 days later and we are go away for 2 weeks. After the pressure to cancel and for me to go to her last year I haven't told her about this, too scared. Seriously thinking of sending rest of family on trip while I stay in UK just in case but I really can't cope with anymore of this FOG. Seems I can never get DM out of my head.

I'm sorry to read about all these horrible experiences of parents and the effects that are still being felt by everyone :( Since having DS I really struggle to get me head around how any parent can behave like this let alone the multiple examples on here!

troodiedoo I think I have lowered contact as much as possible. I have managed to get away with not seeing them since Christmas and I rarely initiate contact which is mostly by email. I am just waiting for them to die, I daydream about that happening every day.

AttilaTheMeerkat you are very right about my dad, he is weak and I have lost all respect for him for not standing up to either my mum or step-mum, he has let me down badly. All contact with DS is under supervision, so far they have been OK with him but I will never trust them alone with him. My siblings are with my mum and step-dad and I adore them. There is a significant age gap and they are still at school. It has been hard seeing how much better their childhood has been but I am glad for their sake.

Sleepyhay I always feel in the outside and it breaks my heart. I can never know what it is to have loving parents but it is the inability of others to understand my childhood which really makes me feel different.

Has anyone on here gone NC? How did you do it? What happened?

It is interesting reading this thread as so much of it resonates. I went NC for three years - just got to the point i couldn't take the hurt any longer. I found it enormously liberating and they were really good years for me. Parents didn't try to make contact once. I ran into them eventually and things just resumed, and no one talked about why we hadn't seen or heard from each other for so long. I did start to feel guilty eventually, but i didn't miss them, I have to be honest. Also had a couple of period of no contact with my sister as her selfish and hurtful behaviour got too much. It actually didn't do any good. Just led to endless hurt and arguments and caused damage. I just couldn't bear to be around her any longer. So now I just limp along, trying to shield myself from the hurtful remarks and behaviour. A psychotherapist friend of mine explained the term 'splitting' where a mother will make a favourite of one sister and the other one is treated as though she has all the faults the mother can't acknowledge in herself, or something along those lines.

I'm not seeing my parents tomorrow. I text my dad asking if he was thinking of trying to squeeze in a brew tomorrow or should we leave for now. He replied with leave it because he expects things will be hectic.

Seems fair enough.

It took me ages to think of how to word my text to him so as not to put pressure on or not to assume either way plus not to fawn or fix or offer a solution but yet remain light and breezy. It was almost as exhausting as meeting them

Spare as much as I wouldn't want to suggest everybody had more fun because I was there , I do think everybody was more relaxed and 'natural' than when my M is around - there was definitely not the usual tension and awkwardness. Hopefully others noticed that too...

Re the sleepover - I have decided (with the backup of you lovely lot's opinions that I do have every right to make sure my M isn't at my Dsis's house when the sleepover happens. I will just have to be clear and honest with Dsis about how important this is to me - hopefully she'll understand... Too yes then can be at mine instead, we do the taking turns thing anyway. But I know mine will still want to go to their cousins because it's more exciting being away from home, etc...

Pwysydd. I have been NC for ten weeks and in my mind it's permanent. It's all on this thread and the previous one, but basically my M had been horrible for years and I put up with it, until recently when she said some disgusting things in front of my DC that really upset them. We ended up having a huge argument - because I stood up to her - and the things she said were so, so horrible I have finally given myself permission to cut her off. It feels weird, but mostly in a good way. I feel like my life is my own and that I have grown up, actually, in a funny sort of way. And the sad thing is that I havent missed her at all - not one bit. Which is crazy really after 40+ years of her being around all the time...

Treacle I know it's hard but it is so worth it. Do something nice that you enjoy tomorrow

My mum just called me on my mobile and left one of her sad face, hurt voice messages asking me to call her. I'm at work. I don't want to call back.

But I know I will call at some point. Arghh

bumblebee you don't need to remain in touch with your parents if you don't want to. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that any relationship that continues to cost me more than I get from it, isn't worth the effort. What do you get from the relationship with them now? Do you rely on them or need them? Do they support you?

treacle is great that you've managed not to get drawn in. Might be worth keeping contact to just your dad when arranging to meet up if it makes it easier.

I've downloaded the emotional literacy course. There are 3 phases and there are exercises to do. I've looked at the first one and my initial thoughts are that I really don't want to do it. I think it's because I'm going to find it really difficult but that's probably the point. Will let you all know how I've found it when I've completed it.

Blimey, my mother is rattled. Today's she's called me at work, called my son and got her husband to call me.

I finally spoke to her and told her that telling me she can't change is not the way to change the way we get on because it puts all the responsibility on me. I think, for a moment she got it. I've told her I'll call when I'm feeling able to talk.

Thanks everyone here for your support. Today I was the adult and I stayed there despite her attempts to drag me into drama.

Hi Flamingnoravera

As I have mentioned to you before its not you, its your mother. She will not change; this is who she is and its not your fault.

Her H from your writings is the same as your mother really; he is certainly her willing enabler here and disordered of thinking women like your mother need one of those.

And no she hasn't got it at all. I would not call her back at any point in the future. At the very least I would block her number from your mobile phone.

Do read about FOG - fear, obligation and guilt. You seem mired in all three still which is not surprising really.

And no you do not have to forgive her either.

Hi meerkat I'm scared that I'm like her. I have done the "look" I have used her tactics to get what I want and I'm scared of abandoning her. I'm scared of abandoning her because I know that she is scared and vulnerable too.

It feels as cruel to go NC with her as she was to me. My head knows it's FOG but my heart knows she is capable of kindness.

I have gone NC with exes who betrayed me but I'm not sure I can do it with her because I know she will not understand and it will hurt her. I don't want to hurt anyone anymore.

Flaming perhaps you could have a think/read about how to set some boundaries with your M. By boundaries I mean expectations that you enforce that take account of your needs as an adult equal to your M. It sounds as though you are starting to do this already. Doing this objectively might stop you worrying that what you are doing is somehow repeating some of the bad behaviour she's displayed towards you. I.e., you will know you are being reasonable and fair.

If, as you think, your M is capable of some understanding and able to change, she may initially push against your boundaries but if you hold firm, you will eventually achieve a new, happier equilibrium.

If she is unable to change this will probably soon become obvious! You will need to be on your guard though as sometimes they can be quite sneaky about trying to get around the boundaries you've set. This might include 'love bombing' you or using other family members to get round you.

There are some good books out there - the one that helped me was 'Where to draw the line' by Anne Katherine.

I don't know about something nice Flump but I did three washloads and cleaned and ate my tea in between, I was sat down with a G&T by just after 5pm in a lovely clean house I usually wash n clean on a Saturday so it's freed today up so we're going to have a day out, yayyyy!

My dad rang at about 2pm yesterday to say they can meet after all (there was a delay getting the keys for their new place) but I was still at work and I'd already promised my son a lift somewhere at half past. I could have made it if I'd have rushed about and rearranged what time I picked my son up but I resisted and stuck to what I'd already arranged. My dad was absolutely fine about it, completely normal reaction from him, so I think you've made a very good point Sleepy about making arrangements with/through my dad.

Must admit though, my little brain immediately set into action thinking of how I could get there. I'm pleased I managed to resist but it's freaked me out that that seems to be my mind's default, it wanted to give no regard to what I wanted or what consequences it would have on my son or my work. I have no idea how many times I've shuffled plans to accommodate them, it must be uncountable.

flamingnoravera

Again you seem more concerned about your mother here and that concern should be for you instead, you do matter here.

You are not like your mother; you're completely different and separate to her but she's really trained you and well to serve her and you have some of her mannerisms. That may well be why you feel doubtful now.

I would listen to your head rather than your heartstrings. She was not a good parent to you as a child and she is not a kind parent nor a decent example of a grandmother to your son now.

You feel kindly towards her because you are a nice person, unlike her who sees kindness as a weakness to exploit. You do not and have not treated your son like your mother has treated you; you know her treatment of you is wrong and she like all toxic people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. You're scared and vulnerable; she became the ways she is now because of her abusive father amongst other things. I was not at all surprised to read that her own childhood was itself abusive but that's no justification for how and why she acts as she does now. This works for her, that is why she does this. She never wanted to seek the necessary help.

Money and such like is given by these people as a means of control and to further obligate them; its never done out of altruism. She never gave a toss about you back then and still does not now. When you make your way more out of the FOG she has put you in, it will become more clear to you.

I've just bought Toxic Parents. I'm going to deal with this once and for all. It's now on my bucket list of things to do before I'm 56! I've got to wait for paper version, there doesn't seem to be a kindle version.