"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Atilla So all these years she did know you, and yet she choses to fuck with ya on your bday, when you set down some vey clear boundaries.

She chooses this day, your day, to present you with a thoughtful gift", that she hasn't bothered to wrap so clear message there.

She does this in front of fam - so you can't say anything... risk making you the bad guy, on your own birthday for receiving a "gift" you made clear you didn't want?

Or you do reinforce your boundaries and she's the victim and centre of attention on your birthday?

What do I think of that...?

I think...

Nah...

You could write her a 'polite' little note saying that her present took you by surprise as you'd specifically said you didn't want one (mention the existing boundary) and now you've had time to think about it you've decided to pass the present on to charity (reinforce the boundary), as you will do with all future presents (consequence of further boundary violations).

That's what the books would have you do anyway. But I'm not sure I'd be brave enough...

Attila I read somewhere that Ns are notoriously bad gift givers, at best choosing something they like for themselves or something they think you should like, even down to the extent that if you try and point them in the right direction they'll still not go down that path.

I believe though that when trying to impress or reel you in they are capable of getting it right. My M certainly gets it right when it comes to my OH but she desperately wants him on her side and he's consistently resistant.

There's this too...

Why do Narcissists not like receiving presents?

Because gifts are an IOU, and they don’t like owing anyone anything because they like others owing them. It’s all about power games. Presents are tools of manipulation. Have you ever received a present from them and wish you hadn’t accepted it because now you owe them? They judge the actions of others by their own reasons for committing those same actions. They give presents when they want something from you. Ergo… they hate getting presents. But they also hate not being given presents!

From here

anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2013/12/26/answering-questions-about-narcissists/

Hi spare,

re your comment:-

"Attila I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry at the limestone cat. I assume from what you said that as well as being unwrapped the present wasn't actually given to you on your actual birthday? So it was like 'I am going to go through the motions of giving you a present but not make much of an effort', which sort of implies that you are not worth making an effort for!

Presents can sometimes be something of an obligation. They imply that you have a reciprocal relationship with that person. Do you want that reciprocal relationship? And if not, is there any way that you can re-enforce your boundary in order to make it clear to her that that relationship isn't something you want?"

It was a surprise to me to receive anything from her and I did not want a gift from her anyway because in her case at least it is not meant altruistically.

My own personal relationship with MIL is pretty much non existent; we do not talk on the phone for instance and DH usually phones her. I've seen her narc rage directed at someone else one time and it was not pretty to witness. Of course DH has never seen that from her.
He was used by her to do this; he sees this from her as normal behaviour because he's grown up with her. He is in FOG as well, particularly the bit about being obligated.

I did not see her on my birthday thankfully. DH and I ate at a fine dining restaurant (not my usual thing at all!) and spent the night in a well appointed air conditioned hotel room with a bathroom as long as the upstairs landing of our house!.

I made it clear (or at least I thought I did) to my DH that I did not want anything from her. I told him it was not necessary; clearly this has been disregarded. She knows I like both cats and Italy so put the two things together. Like many narcissists they do not like boundaries so has disregarded it.

Now does anyone want a limestone cat?!.

Hi treacle

re this part of your comment:-

" I believe though that when trying to impress or reel you in they are capable of getting it right. My M certainly gets it right when it comes to my OH but she desperately wants him on her side and he's consistently resistant."

I agree with that entirely, the only thing here is that my DH is not resistant. He probably thought "ahh isn't she nice" when she handed me that gift still in its amazon packaging. It was done mainly to impress him, not me. Unfortunately I have become wise to the ways of narcissists so am immune to such blandishments.

He thinks his mother is nice because he does not really know any different. His late father was really a deadbeat of a dad and a man whom I hardly knew at all, a person whom DH once called a narcissist!.

Famsham - nah indeed!.

Apologises, I hadn't realised you'd said no gifts. In that case she's been very naughty indeed. You can't react though, not yet anyway as you'll be giving her attention.

The magical book of boundaries suggests three strikes and your out approach so that would be wait until the next time she asks or enquires over what you would like and reiterate your boundary then (or sooner if she approaches you to ask if you like it). If she breaks it again you tell her that you've told her twice that you don't want any gifts and she's leaving you no choice, there will be consequences if she does it again.

Its okay, no apologies needed.

I think DH has also been manipulated here even after I specifically told him that I did not want anything from his mother. I blame her more than anyone else for making me feel the ways I do now, he probably thought he was being helpful and kind.

I get the impression he's been manipulated too. I don't suppose you'll ever know the full extent of the conversation, he could have made it abundantly clear and she's ridden rough shot over him because she simply refuses to be 'told' what to do.

I know though, that before I saw the light, I would fawn over my M's gift giving both to me and the people she gave them to in front of me regardless of what my actual opinion was. It was one of my roles. Maybe your hubby is the same.

My M had me so that she got me to do all the work of the present giving to myself, DH and DD. I had to think of present 'ideas' for all three of us but they had to be a) not money (not a 'proper' present) b) easily available in her small town c) something she'd approve of (huge list of things she wouldn't approve of). Often I ordered the presents myself because it was easier. For years I jumped through those hoops until I realised that I'd rather have one of her crap presents than do it any more. So now if she asks I say I'd like money, unless she can think of something herself. (For an example of one of her crap presents, when I was 10 DSis and I got a bible and an umbrella each for Christmas.)

Also she moans like hell behind people's backs if anyone ever forgets to do a proper thank you. Thank yous are like manna to her.

Attila I'm really glad you had such a lovely birthday with your DH.

I was exactly the same Spare I'd have to always do the thinking and more often than not the leg work when it came to gifts for myself and my son. She has this awful habit of buying me brown things though, I never wear brown. My parents don't buy gifts for each other, they've not done for decades. They don't even celebrate each other's birthdays or anniversary or anything. My M is so difficult to please and she begrudges spending on a gift for my dad when she doesn't feel he puts the same effort back. Back when they did buy gifts, must be 30 years or more ago, she'd read far too much into everything to turn the gift he'd given into an insult. It wasn't funny at the time as she'd stop speaking to him and put me in the middle but I'm laughing now that she's so far removed from reality that she without fail would manage to make a victim of herself from a nice gesture.

Atilla your my take would be that your MIL thinks that by giving you such a 'thoughtful, wonderful gift' that you weren't expecting that you would really see how 'amazing ' she is.

I'm assuming she knows you're not interested in any of her BS so imagine how good she would feel to get you onside. Just out of interest has anyone fallen out with her recently? If so then she probably needs to mend the damage that's done by manipulating someone else. If your DH falls for it already then she's probably making the effort just for you.

I might be completely wrong about this is the sort of thing my m would do. She also uses gifts and money in place of actually having to put any effort in herself.

Why do Narcissists not like receiving presents?

Because gifts are an IOU, and they don’t like owing anyone anything because they like others owing them. It’s all about power games. Presents are tools of manipulation. Have you ever received a present from them and wish you hadn’t accepted it because now you owe them? They judge the actions of others by their own reasons for committing those same actions. They give presents when they want something from you. Ergo… they hate getting presents. But they also hate not being given presents!

this ^^

[how do I italicize/ bold whole sentences please ?]

Spot on ! My mother used to want me to give her the receipt for presents I bought - and told me outright that it was so she could change them for black and white clothing, to wear to her beloved waitressing job in an expensive social club.

It makes sense as well re her having 'paid' me at Xmas, when I went over to care for her a couple of weekends. I took it as a denigration of my intention [ i.e message = I'm a servant really], but the above quote means that as well she is throwing my 'present' [caring] back at me , so she doesn't owe me anything. Makes total sense. The debt is all back on me. For giving birth presumably to a child she didn't want, at a time when there was no pill. And a girl to boot !

Another AHA ! moment. I get such a lot out of reading what people put onto these forums. Advice to others is also advice and knowledge for me, as I work to re-educate myself .

Thanks

Ps An embarrassing one . I'm off to the doctor soon - I think I've an outbreak of atopical eczema [?] . Had this a little before - apparently is age related - and aggravated by , amongst other things, stress.

I reckon that even though I actually - overtly - feel much happier and relieved, this whole reawakening [ and reading about abuse trauma daily] is actually quite stressful , but in a more covert way ?

Has anyone else had any physical reaction to reworking their trauma ??

Wish me luck - want to scratch myself to pieces. And not a good look !

I'm so glad I found this thread - I started a thread last week but it didn't get much traffic so perhaps I posted in the wrong place.
After reflecting (for the millionth time) recently about some of the emotional abuse I suffered through growing up I have decided to go NC with my father. I barely see him and rarely speak to him anyway and just was hoping someone might be able to advise the best way to do it.
Do I tell him I'm cutting contact? Do I just gradually phase him out? What are people's experiences of doing this? My parents are no longer together but I know my mum will probably still be upset with my decision.
She is a denialist about what went on and I still carry a lot of resentment towards her too, although we now have a good relationship. I just don't know where to begin with it all.

Makealist I get indigestion for several days after (funnily enough not during) any interaction with my M, particularly if it's an awkward one. But that's not quite the same as what you are suggesting, is it. I hope the GP can help with your eczema as it sounds really uncomfortable, and the hot weather last week must have made it unbearable.

Mocoloan I am only LC so far, but I know there are others on this thread who are NC and who'll be able to help you. My gut feeling though would be that it's your choice, your decision and you don't have to tell anyone or announce it or even have a triggering event to just do it.

You are definitely in the right place now - welcome!

SpareBedroom - thanks for replying.
Yes, I was thinking just stop replying if he does contact me? The last I heard from him (a couple of months ago), was that he was coming over in June (he lives abroad), and wanted to meet DH's parents. He has never made any effort to meet them before, only now I'm pregnant. And every since his last message I've been so anxious about the impending meeting. Turns out he hasn't contacted me since, so maybe he's not coming anyway, but it definitely has made me realise how little I want him in my life. I don't want him meeting DH's parents - who have been more parents to me than he ever has been, and I certainly don't want him in my DD's life when she's born.
Hopefully he just won't get in touch at all, but I've always been a bit of a people pleaser. So when he does send a message I'd find it hard to ignore without guilt kicking in. But also don't want to have to have "that conversation".
Sorry, I'm rambling a bit here.

I originally posted my situation on the dimentia thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/dementia/2517841-Ailing-father-difficult-mother-I-need-to-rant,
before discovering Stately Homes. I last posted in August 2016 Stately Homes, but visit regularly and write many posts that I delete before uploading. Don't why really, just fear of outing I suppose and making it worse. Things have just erupted again. Last time I posted I was being pressurisd not to go on holiday but to go and help with my father. My previous posts will explain the situation, otherwise my post will be to long. Thanks to the support I had on here I went on the trip and made plans to go to DM but the night before I was taken seriously ill and was admitted to hospital. DH phoned DM in early hours of the morning to tell her, that way she believed me as part of the family dynamic is that I don't get ill even as a child. Anyway this gained me a few months respite as I had to have an operation in October and we went back to the superfically good relationship that we had maintained for years before DF was diagnosed. She actually phoned me, (1 of 3 calls I've had this year, everyone has to call her, at set times, she won't use any other form of technology - I dread the calls.) the surpise and dare I say pleasure that she phoned was lost when her opening lines were "you don't sound ill" as if I'm laying attached to drip for the fun of it! By Christmas I had no more leverage in the illness and it was back to before. I would go more but since the time documented on the dimentia thread I do not visit alone as I am terrified of her, I am petrified of being alone in the same room where she can let rip. There is also the cost element, fights and car hire are a minimum of £200 a time. DM has made it clear that the fact that I should dare mention the cost is a sign of my lack of care which makes me feel even worse that I already do. DF meanwhile is slowly fading away, he's in and out of hospital, subjected to more and more aggressive treatments. Horrible though it is I sometimes wish DF would die. The medics have all learned to their cost not to dare suggest that maybe it's time to let nature take it's course. Friday I rang DM (I visited the previous weekend) she had been told that she needed to get someone in at night to turn DF in bed. Cue the whole emotional thing starts again. Spoke to Dsis Saturday morning. She lives nearby and is a nurse. She is the Golden Child so doesn't get the emotional abuse but is still finding it too much. DM wants Dsis to take on the task. She has agreed to do 3 nights, doesn't really want to and is really upset as she might have to give up the job she loves to do so. DM can afford to pay for help but "won't have strangers in the house". She thinks that she will be able to pay day time carers to take on some of it. DM is always saying how wonderful they all are and how they adore her. Not sure this is totally the case. It's interesting that she dilikes those that keep a professional distance. Saturday night I determined that It was time for this to stop (yes it took Dsis being upset to do this as I too am guilty of putting her on a pedestal.) I phoned and put into practice the non defensive answers as shown in the Susan Forward book quoted at top of thread. The responses were just as the book says, used her quivalent of taking to "Stately Homes," Throughout I kept my calm. At one point DM claimed I wasn't listening she could hear others talking to me in the background - not true was my bulldog on sofa next to me snoring held to phone to her to prove it. Also calmly told DM that I didn't think Dsis should have to do the job and still didn't melt under the onslaught. Ended with DM putting down the phone on me. I came away feeling really liberated. DH told me how well I'd done (he and DS2 were on standby, ready to ring my mobile with an "urgent" call at my signal.) By yesterday the feeling of liberation was being taken over by guilt, I was feeling that I should ring and apologize, I feel so mean and guilty .it will cost me dear in terms of the family but I want to remain strong and not ring etc. I'm asking for you all on here to support me. Thanks

I haven't posted on one of these threads for ages but something has happened recently that has pulled out the rug from under my feet.
My mum (who I am very low contact with) texted me last night to say that my sister (who i have literally not spoken a word to in three years) has tickets for Adele this weekend and would dd eleven like to go?
To which my instant response was no but thank you for the offer anyway.
And now I am feeling really guilty because i know dd would really really enjoy it.
But i cant do it. I would have to travel up to London and stay under the same roof as my sister, interact with her and be something along the lines of 'thanks for taking her, thats really nice of you'
Just need someone to give my head a wobble and remind me that scanarios like this are all about reinforcing the FOG dynamic.

Room101

This is all part of the dysfunctional dynamic; do not ever pick up the rope they hold out to you. If you do not engage at all they cannot play their mind games. This time it was Adele tickets; next time it will be something else. Well done therefore for saying no; your DD cannot afford to be so manipulated here.

Ignore your flying monkey mother; she was acting in her own interests here and certainly not in yours.

Thanks i am just feeling bad and guilty. And like they will frame it as 'Room101 is so unreasonable, she wouldn't let dn/dg go to something she would have loved, can you believe that.'
Just have to remember that that is exactly why they are doing it!
Hate having a toxic family dynamic.
Is the flying monkeys thing a term that is specific in relation to toxic families?

In answer to your last question yes.

Narcissists in their lives have their own personal minions, appropriatelylabeledas “flying monkeys,” who side with them and join their “team” and set out to participate in their damaging agenda to destroy the targets’lives.

Flying monkeys are the narcissist’s enablers.

Your mother did not act in your interests here, only in her own in allowing her own self as her other daughter's mouthpiece.

They want to you feel bad, guilty and unreasonable. Do not be. Those tickets came with a whole heap of obligation attached, this time towards your DD. It is your task amongst many here to protect her from such toxic influences like your mother and sister.

I would also now consider further lowering all means of communications with your mother.

Apologies for the (probably) long post - I'm brain-dumping again.

Dsis told me about a conversation she had with our M. 20 ish years ago our M had a 'friend' - ie he moved in with her, slept in her bed, but she now talks as if she never looked ar anybody after my dad died and this man was her 'friend'.

When she got together with him I barely saw her for a few years. I didn't like him, partly because she was the poor grieving widow after my dad died, then suddenly she met this man and changed overnight into a giggly teenager and shoving their relationship in our faces. Also partly because I found him a bit creepy - couldn't put my finger on why but I did.

I was in a bad relationship and finally left the man concerned and moved back to my mum's, temporarily. I had been there for a few days when my mum's boyfriend said he had a friend who worked for the CAB and he could take me to see him for some housing advice. I agreed - but when we went he took me to a pub and this man never appeared. He then told me he was in love with me and had been fighting his feelings for ages, and wanted to leave my mum and that we could set up home together. I was so horrified/shocked/disgusted that I asked him to take me straight home and that it could never ever happen.

The next day when he was out I told my mum. I didn't think I had any choice but to tell her.

She was upset but fine with me and told him he had to leave and they split up. End of story.

Anyway the other day my M started talking about it to my DSis. And apparently now it's all my fault. He was a 'nice person' and they were happy until I moved back in and 'confused him'. Apparently she's never forgiven me for telling her and therefore 'splitting them up'. Apparently if I had cared about her happiness I would have told him to 'stop being silly, forget about all this and go back and be nice to my mum and stay with her'.

My Dsis agrees with me that it's completely insane. But it keeps coming back to me and I cannot get my head around it. How could she want to stay with somebody who tried to run off with their own DD, and how could they say they'd rather not even know? Is it just as simple as her deciding to make me the root of all evil and pin every bad thing that's happened on me? It was always implied that I was at least partly to blame for my dad's death, so in comparison this accusation is small-fry!

And how does it fit in with her narc personality? Surely a narc would never stay in a relationship with somebody who had made it clear they didn't even want them?

I suppose it explains why she shouted at me recently that I 'split everybody up' - because I have never split anybody up and was trying to work out wtf she was talking about.

I don't know why I'm even trying to make sense of ramblings/rages of somebody who is clearly unhinged. Maybe I just want to hear others agree that 'no, it's not me'. Btw - if I should ever need to defend myself - I never liked this man. I felt he was a bit creepy sometimes (and I was proved correc on that score). So I avoided him as much as possible, and certainly never gave him the slightest encouragement. When he said what he said I felt physically sick.

Flump it sounds to me as though your Mum can't handle this creep preferring you over her. And simultaneously can't handle the fact that his actions imply that she had the bad judgement to chose a creep in the first place. So she has completely re-written the story with you as the baddie instead.

Completely narc-y! But pants for you and I'm sorry you are having to process such rubbish, especially after having to put up with him in the first place.

Thank you spare . Sometimes it really helps just to hear that somebody outside of the situation sees it the same way I do 🙂.

Place marking...

So I've known for a while my mum is a narc. But the straw that broke the camels back is that she is currently trying to rip me off for £1000. I've forgiven her for so much over the years but enough is enough and I'll be going NC from here onwards. When your own mother is trying to rip you off, where do you go from here?