"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's May 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

There's no boundaries we are always in the phone to each and other see each other alot.
Mum grew up in a tiny village in the country most of the village was made up of her family ( very big family )
Her parents were from what I know were not like this not that I recall , she met my Dad at 18 and moved 200 Miles away to be with him . There is where the problem lies she struggled being away from her own mum she had me and had severe pnd and her mum used to visit alot and stay and help. Mum also went home for quite a while with me when she was ill.
She was very ill and her Mum took care of her.
Dad is from a broken home and consequently for things like Christmas etc they would always head back to the village to be with her family . Mum has always had here own way with things ie, when I was married to ex husband years ago ( I was very early 20's) the first Christmas dinner I had to spend at his mums my mum was really upset . Christmas is a bone of contention that starts in September, I actually want to be with my family over Christmas but there is no leeway whatsoever nothing is enough.
I am actually dreading Christmas with the new baby this year my mum and mum in law will be a nightmare.
Anyway my Nan passed away 16 years ago and for Mum that was her greatest fear and one of the issues of her depression ie, losing her mum- so when it happened and mum dealt with it she come off all medication as she thinks she doesn't need it as the worst happened . If that makes sense

I think I should probably go counselling and speak to someone face to face
It's hard as Mum is wrong but she is so good in lots of ways
It's difficult and a bit impossible to convey it all on here.
But Thanks everyone who gave their advice I appreciate it,I think for now I will cut contact for a while and my boyfriend said he is having strong words with his poisonous mum when she is back from hols .
I hope things will be better when my daughter is born in September.
Thanks

Hayter

If you have counselling I would suggest you speak to someone who has vast experience in dealing with toxic families like your family of origin. Do not be afraid to ask them some tough questions. Would not use NHS counselling services as these will take an age to arrange and their services are too limited. Instead contact an organisation like the BACP.

Remember too that counsellors are like shoes; you need to find someone who fits so the first person you see may not necessarily be the right one.

You seem very much still in a FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) state unsurprisingly with regards to your mother and I certainly do not regard her actions towards you as those of someone very loving at all. She is certainly a controlling mother and its all on her terms.

Unfortunately I doubt very much that things will improve for you with regards to your mother even after your child is born. You cannot change your mother but you can certainly change how you react to her. Putting some boundaries in place will be a start; she won't like it and will rail against those but you need boundaries. A small boundary you can put in place now is for you not to phone her quite as often as you do currently; start lessening the frequency of calls.

"I am actually dreading Christmas with the new baby this year my mum and mum in law will be a nightmare".

Then do not spend any time with them. There is no law to say you have to spend any time with relatives who are toxic. Make your own family traditions and kick back against these people who are a toxic influence on your lives. Do anything other than spend any time with these people. You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, family are truly no different. It is easy to write and another thing to do entirely but you really cannot afford to spend the rest of your days under the cosh of such disordered people. Your children are affected as well by seeing you as their mother being so disrespected; that is the imprint they are learning.

hayser, everything that Attila said.

I hope things will be better when my daughter is born in September.

I hope so too. But what has your mother been like when your other children were born? Better, or worse?

One other thing I was thinking regarding your MIL: your BF seems to have a fairly low-stress way of dealing with his mum in that if she behaves badly, they have an argument and then he avoids her, is that right? What happens then between you and her that she's giving you lots of grief? Could you deal with her in the same way as your BF does (I know it's different, she's your MIL, you sort of need to be close to someone to fight with them), at least avoiding her if she's being awful? Could you use the same technique with your mother?

Yes me and my sister have bad guilt issues- it's anger mixed In with guilt .
When it's bad with Mum we feel like our heads will explode and we are constantly saying that we can't do it anymore,then we make up with her and she will be lovely for a while(and it's like 'oh the relief of it ') ,she apologies but in a very much not her fault kind of way. Then it's back to square one .
I think her love for us is all consuming and possessive she is very very defensive of us if someone has upset us ,she is very much fuming with my mum in law .
My mums like a child in a way ,we have had a family upset recently and mum will come round for dinner and be fine but the next minute will burst out crying and run up the stairs and lay on my bed saying she may aswell kill herself etc. That has been going on a while and the family upset- whilst it's not been nice for any of us - I dont think it should invoke such emotional trauma for her.
It's to do with that village she is from whenever she comes home from a visit there her mood is just appalling. There are a strange lot in that village !!
Mum was ok when my last child was born i had her completley on my own aswell though as her father disappeared. She was great then her and dad mover in for a couple of weeks-but it was just us there was no other in laws night partner etc.
With regards to my boyfriend when they fall out and don't speak for a couple of weeks we don't hear anything aside from random Facebook posts..trouble is when they start speaking up there's no acknowlement from her that she is wrong. She plays dumb and crys and then carrys on as normal.
He has said he is really going to tell her this time that her behaviour is not on,I have actually told her off myself this time but she just said "what the hell are you ok about ".,
I've still not heard from Mum and I don't want you atm ..when I do I can't go back to how it was so I think advice given on not calling /seeing each other much is spot on.
I'm exhausted and sad but it's time to make a change, I have a great partner now and I can't let this spoil our relationship.

Hi.
Found this on the Out of the Fog forum.

Absolutely excellent article about gaslighting !! Understand it now properly. Have a look .

medium.com/@sheaemmafett/10-things-i-wish-i-d-known-about-gaslighting-22234cb5e407

Make, thank you for that link, wonderful article that has helped me today.

Family meet up approaching. Feeling very anxious about it. I took control and set the parameters of the meet up. Which has inevitably been been challenged. And one sibling has refused and wants to see me another day. Which means one to one and I don't know how I feel about that. Lot of rage at the moment.

Hayser yes I would also encourage you to seek counselling, and to think about what boundaries you could put in place to limit your mother's power, especially before the new baby comes.

How is everyone doing this week?

Hello everyone - hope you're all ok

I just wanted to check in and say hi because I had my first counselling appointment today. It was an initial assessment - so I saw the practice manager and she asked me lots of questions and we talked about everything. So it wasn't a counselling session but I kind of feel like it was. She said her role is to match me with the right counsellor for me/my situation. At the end she said she thinks I would benefit most from integrative counselling and that they do have counsellors with lots of experience in my kind of family problems, emotional abuse and the long term problems it can cause, etc so she will match me with the one she thinks will suit me best.

I told her I feel like a fraud even sitting there because I am actually 'ok' on a day to day basis. She said if she didn't think I had a 'valid' reason for accessing their services (they are subsidised) she would say so straight off. But she said it was clear from just our one meeting that I have had a huge amount to deal with and that they can definitely help me to make sense of it all and move forward - and that I am not an 'anxious person' (as I kept referring to myself) but that I have all these issues that haven't been dealt with over the years that have to come out somewhere - and have come out as anxiety.

So I'm feeling really positive about the whole experience. She clearly knew her stuff (don't know why that would surprise me but it did...).

How's everybody else doing? This thread moves so fast I lose track a bit...

Hi everyone.

Flump that sounds really brilliant about the counselling. I haven't got that far yet, but I think my biggest fear would be that I'd feel like a fraud, so to have that dealt with at the first meeting must feel really reassuring.**

Chest I think pushing back at your boundaries/parameters when you first set them is the usual way they first react. But that doesn't take anything away from the step you have taken in setting the boundaries in the first place. If you feel threatened by the one-on-one, you don't have to do that - it's your choice.

Hayser I've been following your posts - welcome to the thread. I've found it really helpful just reading what everyone else is saying because it makes you feel validated. Most people in real life don't get it. I hope being on here helps you.

Oh, apologies for the mixed up bold/normal text! The middle paragraph is back to front and I failed completely to do the bold on the last one

So, update on my M situation. If you remember she'd broken her ankle.

My aunt and uncle (both single, both retired but both considerably younger than my M) took it upon themselves to go and stay with my M in shifts to help her out. Not sure how much this was engineered by my M and how much was them genuinely volunteering. Obviously DSis and I are working, so unable (and unwilling, in my case) to do this.

So despite the fact that Occupational Health had been and provided various aids/suggestions for moving about with crutches, using the toilet etc, she has been ringing up and moaning that she's finding it all really difficult. DSis bore the brunt of this as she was ringing daily (I was only ringing every few days, as I knew she had people with her) and she and I spent a lot of time making suggestions that might help, all viable, and none of which our M would accept.

Then 2 days ago my M rang my sister to tell her that my uncle (the current 'carer') felt DSis should come and visit 'to see for herself how she was struggling'. There was also an implication that DSis and I should be taking our part in covering our M's 24-hour care by making up some sort of rota for the 6+ weeks she'll be out of action. Classic flying monkey stuff. DSis was really annoyed (really unlike her as she is the GC) and pointed out she already knew our M was struggling, but that there was nothing she could do to solve the problems if our M wouldn't accept any of the solutions (one was for my M to stay with DSis temporarily - M made an excuse as to why this wasn't viable but we think it's actually because she's getting a stream of visitors at home, which she wouldn't get at DSis's). DSis and I stewed overnight (she emailed me to tell me what had happened) but in the morning our M rang her to apologise and say she'd been pushed into it by my uncle.

I thought that was the end of it, but today DSIs emailed both our uncle and aunt telling them exactly what suggestions she'd been making to our M to help her to cope. Only my aunt has replied so far, but it turns out she has also been offering suggestions, all of which have also been met with a 'no'. But our M hasn't been telling our aunt about our suggestions, or us about our aunt's. Between us we have suggested temporarily living upstairs or downstairs, a stairlift, using a rucksack/bumbag to carry stuff whilst using crutches, paid cleaning help, a paid carer (she is well enough off to afford any of this), one of those ejector-type chairs.., etc etc - the list is too long to put here!

Anyway, in a nutshell it seems our M has been trying to prolong the attention, possibly subconsciously, possibly not, by avoiding taking responsibility for herself and subtly passing the responsibility on to the rest of us instead and making every one of us feel she needs looking after.

Not any more though, as DSis, my aunt and I have now told her she needs to take responsibility, and will be left alone so she is forced to do so and make some decisions for herself. And DSis and I have both set boundaries about what we are and aren't willing to do to help her - in my case I've said to the whole family that I'm not willing to be her carer either short or long term, which feels like a really big step for me. I mentioned before that my M was in a similar situation (ripped Achilles tendon) when I was 16 and I was temporarily in charge of looking after her/running the household, so the whole thing is a big trigger for me, especially now I've seen from an adult perspective exactly how awkward and unreasonable she is. When I was 16 I didn't have the experience to think it mightn't be my fault that I found things so difficult.

Having been through all of that, our M is now saying that of course she'll be absolutely fine coping on her own, and actually doesn't need any of the help we've been researching/suggesting. A remarkable turnaround!

Hi Spare. What jumps out from your post to me is that you are standing your ground, and making it clear to everyone that you're not going to dance to your M's tune - in short you're doing great imho .

I've been feeling really positive today - having my 'take' on things validated by a 'professional' felt amazing. But (why is there always a but) - today I've had a message from my DSis that's made me a bit . It's her DC's birthday in a few days. Our M always has to be centre stage in any family occasions, from the very beginning to the end, taking over and being generally loud. I had told Dsis we would give the actual day a miss and see her & her DC the day after because I cannot see our M. She was fine about it.

But today she texted to say would we like to come on the actual birthday now because 'M understands DC will want to see her cousins (my DC) on their birthday so she is going to see them another day instead'.

Might not sound like much but this has really shocked me. My M has never allowed herself to be left out of anything. But she's apparently happy to keep away on her GChild's birthday so I can be there instead? It doesnt make sense. Is she doing it to make herself look the martyr to my sister? I'm even shocked that my Sis would have had the conversation in the first place, she never confronts our M...

Flump yes if my mum did this it'd be to play the martyr. They do love a bit of sainthood - usually only if they can then tell everyone else how noble they've been and get suitable approbation though - do you think your M will be doing that?

Spare it's the only explanation that makes sense really and it's a good way to try and make my Sis feel sorry for her I suppose. Even so, I've never known my M to keep away from anything, for any reason, so it's weird...

Flump maybe your M thinks she will get more positive feedback from your DSis (her GC) if she backs off than if she goes. In my experience with my DSis they work hard to keep the GC happy because that's where their supply comes from.

Re my own situation, what I've realised just now is that by backing off from the start I forced DSis to bear the brunt of our M, rather than sharing it as we might have done before, and that this in turn forced DSis into making a stand she wouldn't normally make. Our M listened to DSis whereas if it had been me it'd have been 'Spare is being difficult as usual.' I didn't do any of that deliberately, I just decided to set a boundary and stick to it. But it's very gratifying to find that it works, and even more so that DSis and my aunt are now seeing more of what I see, which is very validating. But at the same time I'm aware that it's often two steps forward and one back with this sort of stuff, so I'm trying not to be complacent.

Hi everyone, I've nothing new to report regarding my M. I'm on with addressing a few things though. I've booked myself and my son in with a dentist. We've both not been for over two years. I'm scared of them and my son just isn't catching on that he's old enough to be making his own appointments. I've decided to go private because there's one near me that specialises in anxious patients and offers sedation, the plan is I'll go to him long term so I've signed up to a plan and I'll pay (PAYG) for my son until he moves out next year (his teeth are lovely, he went regularly up to two years ago and he is a regular brusher but he has a chipped back tooth). I have other issues that need sorting out with my son, of my own creation, but I need to tackle them carefully. They're mostly to do with how I generally pander to him and preempt his every day wants and needs then I get down hearted when he's not happy with the things I chose to do for him. I think I can pin point it down to the stuff I'm doing that he's not asking me to do but not sure. If it is that though then I should just be able to stop, lay off the 'helping', then in theory he'll either do it himself or ask if he needs help. Easier said than done but hoping having boundaries will help.

Spare about your mum, it jumped out to me that she wants to be 'babied'. Most adults fight to be independent and are proud when they are often to the point they cover up any suffering but if she's having a trauma and it's gained her some attention she might be reverting to childlike behaviour to gain extra attention. Maybe attention is like a drug to them, and once they get a taste they need more and more? If so, then she needs weening off it for her own good as well as everyone around her or she'll bleed you dry. Xx

Flump Good news about your meeting. It sounds really positive. You took a big step there, you should be very proud of yourself Xx

Sparebedroom I read a post by Issendai (she has a website about estranged parents' forums at [[http://www.issendai.com issendai.com], it's very good) which is exactly about what you're saying - when you drop the rope, when you stop managing the behaviour of the difficult person, it blows back onto other friends and family. And then sometimes, because they're being shown and not told, they understand far better what the nature of the abuse was that you've been suffering. Which is really cool!

Well done treacle for doing the dentist! I've just been down the doctor's for a checkup and next week I'm doing the 24h blood pressure check, as I've got elevated blood pressure and I'm probably going to have to start on tablets. I'm trying not to blame myself for this - my lifestyle is not that healthy, but I do exercise regularly, and I have a family history of early onset high blood pressure - all of my aunts and uncles and both my parents had high blood pressure before 50 - but it's hard, to throw off the habits of a lifetime. My mother blamed me for every illness. Asthma. She blamed me for asthma and hay fever, she thought I was pretending or that I was rubbing my nose too much and making it itchy. God she is mental. She thought my dad could reverse the effect of Alzheimer's through sheer effort - that he just wasn't trying hard enough. Poor bugger. He would have - we both would have.

I'm getting a bit fed up with my therapist. I was talking through one of my issues which is that I feel guilty when I "should" be working, and as a SAHM with a writing project on the side, I could potentially be working all the time, so I'm guilty all the time - it's always been my problem with open ended projects, I was the same when I was doing my PhD. And you know, to me, it's fairly clear where this comes from: it's that basic lack of self esteem, the not being OK as a baseline -that Codependency for Dummies book describes it very well - but I think because IDK, because I stopped expecting love from my mother very early, because my dad was OK, because I had some other positive experiences as a teenager - I don't feel that need to be loved, it's more it expresses itself in the need to be useful, to do something useful or good or new or whatever. I mean it's not that bad a thing in itself, it would be nice to do something cool, finish my book, stuff like that. But it would also be nice not to feel guilty about it all the damned time. So you know, I would hope that as a result of doing therapy, doing like Pete Walker says and mourning the shit that went down when I was a kid, getting angry about it, and letting it go - that I will get some self esteem, that it will grow in me, and that I will feel less guilty.

The therapist suggested to me that I should just go and do something that I like, something to no purpose, something just for fun, and that I should just put the guilt away, put it to one side. Just put all the stuff with my mother to one side for a while. And I'm like what is this? This makes no sense to me. I did the thing I was supposed to enjoy and guess what I felt guilty. It's an emotion, it doesn't fit in a box. I did it and I felt guilty and I felt like I was expected to pretend that I don't feel guilty and feel grateful for the suggestion. It's a shit suggestion! I've already tried it, anyway. I gave up writing for a good 6 months, said I was going to do this project differently, that I was only going to work when I wanted to work, I wasn't going to make it into a big struggle. Guess what, I never wanted to work, and 6 months went past, and I felt shit, and I'm now forcing myself to write again, and I feel fine about that, and I'm fine when I'm writing. I think there is nothing wrong with being motivated by guilt in the first instance. The only thing that is wrong is that there is so much guilt.

The other thing was that I felt like I was being told to let go of all the stuff about my childhood before I'm ready. I was emotionally abused by my mother for a good 17 years, and another 20 or so after that she made my life difficult whenever she was part of it. I want to be able to complain about that for a while longer, and I bloody well want to say when it's time to move on. I've already tried putting it all out of my mind. I did it my whole life and guess what? It didn't work. I made the sort of bad choices about life that someone makes when they only have reason to help them choose and they won't trust their own instincts. I let people bully me because I didn't allow myself to see the parallels between their behaviour and the behaviour of my mother. You know, fuck that. I know my therapist would love to see me get better, but I am not paying her to watch a magical transformation: I'm paying her to listen to all the bad shit I want to talk about. I am not performing a fucking recovery.

Sorry, I really need to say all that to the therapist, don't I?

toomuch yes you do. But the fact that you are struggling to be open about what you think/want with your therapist doesn't bode well imo. Surely the most important thing for therapy to work is to feel comfortable enough with them to be able to tell them how you're feeling.

And I didn't think the idea was to 'let go' of stuff, but to work through it, talk about it, express it, whatever, until you have resolved it in your own time.

But you should probably ignore me anyway - suddenly the therapy expert after one session

Toomuch One of the hardest things about being conditioned to fulfill others needs is to know what your own needs are. I then think once you've identified (and often struggled to accept) you've got these needs that there's that big hurdle involving telling people, especially the person or people it will directly effect. I think you should tell your therapist, it'll get you what you need and it will show (to yourself and to them) you've made great progress. Remember too that there's a third part to getting what you need and that is, you are allowed to fine tune or to even completely change your mind at any point. I think it's under estimated how much of an emotional struggle asking for what you need or asking and then changing your mind can be but it shouldn't be, 'other' people do it all the time and nothing bad ever happens and they're no worse thought of and in loads of instances they're better thought of but whatever, the knock on effect isn't something that should be weighing on the mind, getting what you need should be the number one focus. And if it's something you're paying for, the above with bells on. Xx

flump it's more that I had to get my thoughts and feelings in a row, I'm quite happy to tell her, and it'll be a good exercise in assertive communication. I just wish I didn't have to! No, it's better this way, hoping for someone who will understand your every word is just the codependent's dream again...

Toomuch and well done for getting checked out xx If only we could all just make that effort and make ills go away, it'd be funny if it wasn't so damaging. In my family only my mum is 'allowed' to be ill, everyone else is being soft

Hi everyone, not been on here for a while as I've been trying to work some stuff out for myself.
Dealing with the emotional flashbacks is helping enormously but I struggle to recognise them sometimes. It's also made me feel so angry about the whole situation. I'm aware I'll probably sound like a child now but why me (and everyone else on this thread). Why did we get the bad deal with parents? Why do we now, as adults, have to unpick and heal the abuse of our childhoods? Shouldn't all children have the right to be loved and cared for. I'm not expecting every parent to be Mary Poppins but just to be treated kindly and with love and respect as a child would have made a massive difference. Why at the age of 37, do I not know what it feels like to have any self esteem. I could go on but it might never end. The injustice of it all just makes me angry.
I'm hoping that feeling like this is all part of the healing.
for everyone.

Hi sleepy. I think that yes, it is all part of the healing.

I also have moments of feeling really intense anger about the shit my mother expected/still expects everybody to endure from her. The fact that she will never ever acknowledge what she's responsible for makes me so angry. But those intense feelings are good, I try to let them all out with a good old rant at an understanding friend - or just to myself if there's nobody around to listen, or I write it down. Getting it all out is good; it's the only way to really heal, I think. I've spent years burying it all and that sure as fuck did me no good at all...

Toomuch that link's very helpful and I love the idea of 'dropping the rope' - it's a great term. Actually I think it was you, some time ago when I started panicking about how I might keep up LC when my M got older and needed more help from DSis and I (how prophetic that turned out to be...) that suggested I think about what I might be prepared to do if I were an only child and work from there. So I did, and that was really the basis of the boundaries I set. So, thank you.

Re: guilt, it's a strange emotion and I can never quite get to the bottom of where it 'fits'. I had a lot of it when I was younger because mixed up in my dysfunctional upbringing was the black beast of religion as well, so a lot of how we were trained to behave was with guilt trips about God not being happy about x, y or z. (I'm an atheist now. That helped a lot in getting rid of it.)

I think it starts off as an emotion - fear of something happening, remembered sadness or whatever, and then it becomes a thought process. A wrong thought process, so like if the original emotion was a bee sting or something the thought process is that instead of putting antihistamine on it you do something else instead that doesn't actually help. So I think what I'm saying is that you mightn't be able to change the emotion (yet) but you could change the thought process. It would mean examining your thoughts every time you felt guilty and having some sort of rational criteria for whether guilt was justified or not (like whether you are actually responsible, whether someone will get hurt, etc etc) and then actively retraining that thought process so you respond differently to the emotion.

I think now I've written that that what I'm describing is CBT which may be what you're getting through your therapy anyway, in which case, ignore me!

Also (sorry for multiple posts but my thoughts are coming in bursts) I totally get where you are coming from about feeling you have to be 'useful'. I got round it for myself by re-defining 'useful' as having to be doing something 'meaningful', and then I thought about what was meaningful to me, and realised that I had different ideas about what was meaningful than my parents did, but I was still in my head trying to be meaningful according to my parents' values instead of my own. Once I'd stopped doing that, I found I didn't feel as guilty any more.