Support thread for those of us having to coparent with a narc or very difficult ex partner thread 5

[Lilacpink40]

Open to everyone, please come and share your experience. Will post a link to useful support information below.

Previous Thread (4) is here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2803565-Support-thread-for-those-of-us-having-to-co-parent-with-a-narc-or-very-difficult-exh-thread-4?watched=1&msgid=67018306#67018306

WN= Wank narc (aka Shit Head SH or exP or whatever you prefer).

theoracleofdelphi: IO can't imagine what it is like to have to explain that to your daughter, hats off to you for keeping it together, and what an idiot. I am all for people being able to be transgender, but it doesn't mean you need to be a complete asshole and don't consider your or your daughters feelings. My word.

Nicenewdusters: I feel for your friend, I suppose all you can do is keep an eye on her and support her if she needs it. I fear I might be dragged back into it but trying to stay firm. This thread helps!

So I just went round for dinner. I stayed 2 hours. Its too early to be sitting playing everything is ok with the kids. The boys are there for a few nights as I am working. So it was good to see them. But the eldest told me Daddy had told him Mummy didn't want to come round and won't be coming round for dinner again. I believe him, ex OH said he never said that at all. But DS was very adamant he did. I am now worried he is playing mind games with them. He said outright he isn't............

It was also hard to leave as it was getting close to bedtime. I want to take them with me. They love spending time with him though. Its so difficult between trying to do what is right for the kids, when really I am winging the whole thing. They want to see their dad, they deserve to be able to stay in the home they've known for the last few years, but they do not deserve to have mind games played.

The oldest also said Daddy had been crying, and it upset him, so now I am torn between what is right or not. I suppose the whole situation is fucked up. The youngest one (5) seems fine, like its all going over his head. They get lots of affection from both of us and I know essentially he has their best interests at heart, but I can't stomach what he might be saying to them.

Any wisdom welcomed from the more experienced....:(

I also spoke to a friend earlier, she lives in the UK and we have been couple friends for a long time but I guess our friendship as females was much tighter. She said to me she thinks he is a Narc, and reminded me of a birthday about 7 years ago where he didn't do or get me bugger all cos he was busy at work. Then we went out for a girlie dinner and he phoned and paid for two bottles of Moet. She said everyone thought it was great (including me) and she just thought "What a a bastard". Interesting getting other peoples view later down the line.

Pudding I totally get the "pull" of the whole family thing. I hope I didn't seem critical of my friend, it's just the speed at which he's moved back and that she's surrendered her financial independence. I will be there for her, whatever happens.

Initially the reflex is to think oh this is ridiculous, we should be together, with the kids, this can work. I have had to physically restrain myself sometimes from running to my ex's car/house and saying let's stop this, come inside, let's work it out. Those have been some really low points. But my head stops me because I know it won't work. If you once loved someone and have dc, those urges are very strong.

It may be that you could work it out. But if in your gut you know it was right to leave, I think that's the "voice" you need to listen to.

As for mind games. I just try to be fair. If they complain about dad but it sounds like he was right, I say so (through gritted teeth!). If I think he was speaking/doing something wrong I say so - age appropriately. If they relay information where he was clearly just trying to elicit their sympathy, or make me look bad, I just call it out. I'm honest with them, but am still positive about him where possible, so they don't think he/I am the enemy.

Basically, without being there, you can never be 100% sure of who said what. As long as you show that you recognise they love him and should have a good relationship with him (which you clearly do) you can't do much more. Of course you can always address anything they say to you, but if they know they can trust you, that you're not using them "against" him, they should start to be able to weigh things up themselves.

Pudding what your friend said - makes me think that if I ever get WN-radar signs from a friend's OH I need to tell them, not just think it to myself and let them carrying on not realising. But of course that's easier said than done so can understand why your friend didn't say anything at the time.

Thanks nicenewdusters I think this is going to be the challenge looking forward, not missing him, or his emotional pull on me, but the pull for the boys. I want them to have a good relationship with their dad, but at the same time know I need to protect them. I guess when you live together you have some control as you know what is going on, but when they are there alone. He tells me he isn't trying to manipulate them.......but why would I believe anything he says, I know I have a ability to live in denial and bury my head. My heart literally is bleeding for the kids. I guess the best thing is to just keep an eye on them, lots of love and chats?

Natsku It suprised me as I've always thought she liked him a lot, and she never ever told me to leave, just to do what makes me happy. I'm pretty sure most of my friends wouldn't know what a Narc is. But yeah, you should tell your friends I guess if you see signs, its a tough one though. Because if the person in the relationship doesn't see it yet, could cause a whole lot of shit. Anyway, thanks both for replying, you are so helpful!

Well there's an article about my brother's documentary if anyone wants to read www.computerweekly.com/news/450413644/Citizen-Love-the-story-of-an-ordinary-familys-fight-with-the-US-government

Thanks for the link Nats, such a shame the documentary can't be viewed here. Your brother is astonishingly bright. I watched him on YouTube the other day being interviewed on Newsnight. If the US had any sense they'd make use of his abilities, not try and make an example of him.

Yeah sucks that it can't be watched abroad, maybe they'll sort it out eventually. My brother is insanely bright but he's such a fucking idiot as well if you know what I mean

The article is really good Nats fingers crossed for the next hearing.

I've posted a couple of times but mainly lurk. Need a little rant though. DD Skyped XH tonight, but it started as audio only. The first thing he said was "did your mum do something to it so you can't see me?"

Argh! Why would I do that when for five years I've begged him to contact her more!

She's begging him herself now, it was heartbreaking tonight to hear her ask him to Skype her once a week and to hear him come out with loads of excuses as to why he's busy and won't :(

She's so sad that he won't make time for her. He sees her for 8 hours every 4 weeks and she begs him for more :(

pudding I had to move out of family home and leave DC for a couple of nights at the start - it was impossibly hard. I will never ever ever forget leaving them in the house and driving away for the night.
Yes I know he is their dad, and yes I know he has a right to love them too, but only on here can I still freely say but he is a mean bastard who only thinks if himself and uses them as pawns.

A year on, I am divorced, DC are mostly with me and things are settling down. In fact, in a phonecall at the weekend (I refuse to see him, ever) he said that the midweek teas and extra Sunday dinners are "getting in the way" and he'd now just like to stick with the alternate weekends.

That's a brilliant result for me. I've made it through, and he is a NOB.

Popping in for a moment to announce that I am so sick and tired of the drama triangle. ExH is determined at every opportunity to play the victim to my persecutor.

The details are boring - to do with his last minute demand to change the handover point for some additional contact I had agreed to - mistakenly, in retrospective. I'm just sick to death of his utter conviction that when he says "jump", I'm supposed to say "how high?" and anything else is me being cruel and lazy and selfish and determined to destroy his relationship with dd.

And poor dd, she's angry at me for not making the effort to make this contact work, because that's how he portrayed it in front of her. And part of her understands what's going on, but she doesn't know what to do with that knowledge.

Natsku: that article is fascinating about your brother, I hope things work out for him. I always think with circumstances like his, if people just thought outside the box and utilise his obvious skills, everybody wins.

teabay: thanks for your reassurance, and I'm sorry your ex is being a grade a twat.

I had a terrible day yesterday, I lost my purse and on the way to the bank hit my car and damaged my tyre (and the wheel arch and wing mirror). I phones him to see if he had details of my uk account so I could cancel it and told him about the car. He said "listen, its just a car, you are not hurt that is the main thing". Really f**king irritated me because last time I had a little accident he went mental and kept bringing it up again and again. I also remember about 18 months ago my battery went flat. He came to help me jump start it and I received so much abuse in front of the kids was unbelievable. It just makes me so god damn angry!!

Yesterday I had to go over to pick up some details, and the eldest told me daddy had got angry and told them they could come back to me. I am so devastated for them. I can't work out if its manipulation or if he frankly just doesn't know how to act. I get them back tomorrow, and I will have them for the whole week and will limit any contact with him. He is broken, i can see he is, his whole body shakes when he talks to me. The flipping between guilt and anger is so confusing.

Thanks for the hand holding.

Did any of you purposely anger them to make it easier to leave them? This is where I'm at right now. It's almost like, I've put up with so much awfulness that I need it to get worse in order to make it 'acceptable' to leave! Am I the only one who's done this? It's almost like I wish he'd become physical so that it can't be twisted to be me that's 'too sensitive' or 'being stupid' or 'making this up in my own head'. Can anyone relate to that?

plotisgone be careful. If he does get physical he will twist it to being your fault. My WN pushed me. He apologised later, but in discussion recently he has now changed his story to say that I walked into his outstretched hand.

His latest is that he has instructed a criminal lawyer who specialises in vexatious allegations because, he claims, I have lied to people that he has been violent, and he needs to protect his reputation. The push was not an assault according to him as I walked into his hand (not true). and anyway, he has researched the definition of assault and it is only an assault if the victim was in fear of physical danger. and he has decided that I couldn't possibly have been in fear of him therefore it was not an assault.

I've emailed my solicitor to ask for her opinion on this. I have not told any lies about him and so I am not too worried. But it is typical of WN that his view is that he cannot have done anything wrong, therefore the only possible conclusion is that I have been telling lies about him.

The rewriting of history is just part of the script. I guess facing the truth of what a monster they really are is simply impossible. There's always someone else to blame. Even faced with the black and white evidence (I ended up taking screenshots of his & OW's messages to show each other what they were actually saying about each other instead of believing his spin) ex said I was "making it up" or "she's lying".
The best part is that I actually don't care anyway!

The child psychiatrist called me today to say that after speaking with her boss they're not sure now if they can treat DD because her dad has said no - they're going to talk to the social workers about it and see if it can be sorted or not. Can't believe a parent would deny a child treatment just like that.

Went to see my lawyer too and she said its the first time she's ever seen a case like this. Ex said on the phone to DD that he has Christmas and birthday presents for her but he'll only give them to her if she goes to his house so of course she got upset and he twists it to being all my fault because I won't let her go to his to get her presents. He is one sick fuck.

pinkunicorns they are selfish fuckers who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves that's why they do it. If it doesn't affect them then it doesn't matter even when it's their DC's feelings.

Well done Teabay glad to hear someone is coming out the other side. Pity your WN is putting himself before the DC's but possibly better for them in the long run. The more contact they have the more mind games they play sadly even with their own DC's.

bibliomania of course he is the victim, how could you possibly think anything else, no matter what shit they have done to you they are always the damn victim.

Yes plotisgone I wouldn't push anything with a WN they are unpredictable. They lie and have no scruples about what they say about you. My WN has just accused me of hitting him and being the aggressor, this is the same man who has been coming round to my house screaming at me all because I wouldn't give him money from our joint savings account so he could buy a 4 bed detached house for him and OW. He's said this even though he's harassed me in front of our DC's other family members and even another unrelated adult. Lying is not an issue for a WN the truth is what they have a problem with!

Natsku so sorry to hear that the child psychiatrist is now back peddling. There has to be a way. Usually the courts will overrule parental decisions if they are in the child's best interests. I would assume that the same applies where you live it just means getting the right application before the right court.

plotisgone, I agree that a WN will be able to twist violence towards you. My ex dislocated my finger - not deliberately but because he thought it was okay to physically push me. I went to the police, who arrested him but didn't charge him. He lodged an official complaint against the police, and waves around a letter from them which he claims is an apology, although it isn't quite, and he's used the incident in court to claim that I have a history of making malicious complaints against him. So in short, I agree with NearlyFree.

I do understand what about wanting that final push (literally!) but ime, you have to leave when your head tells you it's right. Don't wait for your feelings - they'll catch up afterwards. Also, based on what you've said, have you looked into the sunk costs fallacy? Might help you gain some clarity.

Natsku, that's awful. I agree with Red that a court order would be one way past the consent issue. DD has started counselling, and it seems to be positive.

Biblio I've heard of the sunken costs fallacy before, your link summarised it really well. I hope you don't mind but I've added it to the parallel thread on useful information.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2814536-Useful-information-and-links-for-people-dealing-with-narcissistic-or-difficult-ex-partners

Sorry to hear about latest narc-wankyness going on.

Pink really feel for your DD it shows such a level of selfishness on his part to ignore his pleading child

Nat hopefully there will be another reversal soon and your DD will be ok. His mental health issues seem to be regularly causing issues. Were you going back to court to remove his parental rights?

Teabay good news you have less contact with ex.

Nearly in your ex's world you created the emotional and physical abuse. Sadly they aren't good at reflecting on the truth. I can't believe the part where he said you walked into his hand instead of his hand pushed you grr!

Oracle how funny that your ex and OW were lying to each other too. What a solid future they'll have together

Red I agree with you that WN twist everything. Mine claimed thst I'd threatened his GF (was OW) finances over whole of 2016. When I pointed out that I hadn't even named her on divorce forms he stuttered his way through more crap. I think he lied to his GF so much saying I was threatening her that he actually believed it.😂

Plot are you worried what your partner would say or do if you asked him to leave? Do you have support to leave?

Brilliant!! So I've just received two contrasting bits of info!
1). From CMS - WN has taken advice to have more overnights in order to pay less, hence the call last week where he is dropping the midweek and the Sunday tea as they "get in the way of things" for him (erm, remember the DC??) So now it is clear why he wanted an extra night and 'deserved' the child benefit.
2). A txt from him saying that work were requiring him now to work weekends, and that I MUST call him TONIGHT to SORT THIS OUT.

Erm, isn't it you who needs to call me dearest WN, and sort out your own sht? Apparently not.

So.....Which will win....The love he has for his DC and desire to see them OR the lure of more money...........

If we all place a bet we'd have enough cash to BUY them a WN island (preferably a rainy one in the North Sea) and we could ship them all off? Who's in??

I'm so much stronger now that I'm out of it, I'm almost looking forward to speaking to him to say "Nope - no extra nights in the week - it's Sat Sun wow or nothing!" I'm guessing that I'll have to repeat it a lot.....

EOW every other weekend, not wow!

Lilac I have asked him to leave, he does a little 'bit' that goes a little something like - 'fine I'm going'...'if I go, I won't be back'...no speaking while he stomps around the house (needlessly)...bag gets half packed...tears start and he tells me he loves me but I have to stop this because if I push him away he will have to go...he doesn't go despite me saying it's for the best.

I can't have a normal conversation about being unhappy and the relationship being unhealthy. When I talk about feelings I may as well be reciting some ancient forgotten language for the amount he seems to grasp. I told him we needed to talk and he basically told me to cut it out if I wanted him to stick around (and abuse!), I said that was sort of the point of the talk. When I got home and tried again to talk he said there was nothing to talk about and went out for the evening (as usual).

I'm not sure if he is a narc, but reading the experiences of people on here, I do believe he is. What do I do?!