My marriage maybe over?

[Intricatelysimple]

My 'd'h and I have been together for 20 years, married for 12 with 3 dc. From the very start he was a controlling bully. Your stereotypical street angel house devil. I have tried many times to end our marriage but there's always been something holding me back, kids/finances/insert reason here.

Anyway from reading these boards I have managed to get some strength from the great collective wisdom of you fabulous ladies and have decided after the most recent episode that enough is truly enough. I have little real world support as I have no close friends - as is typical for when married to such a man. I get along fine with my family but we wouldn't be close enough to discuss our more personal problems.

After a quite minor incident last week I felt it was the straw that finally broke the camel's back so to speak. He's bewildered and is treating me as if i'm crazy. He went so far as to tell me "I need to get over my mid life crisis". And that was the kindest thing he said. However I know he realizes he's gone to far so now enter Disney Dad the greatest dad there ever has been! He cooks, he cleans, he does homework, he speaks in a lovely respectful, interested voice to the dc asking all kinds of lovely questions about how their day has been. He shops! Groceries! Wow this is truly amazing. This man has been in my house all this time and I didn't know it! I must be so foolish not to have noticed. Oh how we'll laugh about all of this in the future!

Of course not.

This is the act and I have to admit it's good. Probably the best performance yet. I should call the Academy Awards people and get them to put him on the list. The very tippety top of the list cos this is really good. But I'm not fooled. I can still see the seething hysteria in his eyes when I dared to go out with some work colleagues over Christmas and stayed out until the ungodly hour of 1am. After 5 hours of ignored texts and phonecalls he was waiting outside the restaurant we had gone to literally staking his own wife. That was pretty embarrassing. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

So thank you for reading. Writing this down has been cathartic. I'm seeing a solicitor next week and am starting the legal process. The real world process will most likely be much trickier but i'll get through.

I hope you don't mind me butting in to ask a general question.
I'm finding this very hard to articulate but how do you move from the brain fog, and not knowing whether you're coming and going. I also find myself looking at womens aid and similar websites and they do quizzes and info sheets on emotional abuse and I'm looking at 80 percent of these things and thinking, this is him all over. This is just so him.
But then it just doesn't really register, I think I'm in denial or something, Because I don't think of him as abusive, I logically know he is but it feels like there is a connection missing, Not him, not my partner, no he can't be abusive. But he IS I don't know what to do anymore.
This morning I've been told to piss off, fuck off, got sarcastic ''oh well'' at basically most things I said, I cried and he just sat there carrying on. Been told to fuck off to my mums house as I'm unwanted. Then as soon as he left for work he's bombarded me with lovey messages about how I shouldn't go for some space or split with him because he loves me and it was just a blip and he's just stupid and he was angry but this is an almost daily occurrence at the moment it comes and goes in phases he'll be like this for about a month then it will die down, still there but albeit less often and then it'll swing around and be back to how it is now which is me walking on egg shells and hearing things I don't think a partner should say. I often feel patronized, insulted and a bit frightened
He also sprained my wrist last week (pulled my arm back by my wrist)
I'm so sad and scared. I never know whats coming. But I'm also not really sure whats happening. I feel like I'm just an observer in a way and I can impartially say ''Yes I need to leave before I lose myself more than I already have'' but when it comes to actioning it or actually making the connection between what is going on and my life (because they are the same they just don't feel it, It doesn't feel like its my life or my partner)

pudding you are going through a massive change, if leaving was easy no one would be stuck in a bad relationship. It's natural to feel a bit lost especially when you go from being part of a (alleged) partnership to feeling like you are solely responsible for everything.

Not sure if this analogy will work but I've been overweight for as long as I can remember. However a few years ago I did a drastic diet and actually hit my goal weight for the first time in my life (have since put it back on due to medical reasons). I was very happy to be a healthy weight but I felt....a bit weird. I realised how much my excess weight had defined me despite being a bad part of my life and I struggled with my new identity. However once I adjusted it was great. Sorry for waffling, I guess I'm trying to say just because it feels unsettling and unfamiliar doesn't mean it's the wrong decision. You have a new normal to adjust to, one in which you are free to live without reference to him.

The correct path is not necessarily the easiest one

iwantausername I think the issue is you are clinging onto the nice things he says (lovey messages) as evidence that he loves you, but not what he actually does (sprained wrist, insults) which shows you that he doesn't.

I didn't realise quite how abusive my ex was until after I'd left him. I knew I was unhappy and just thought we were incompatible. It was like I was looking at a painting close up against my face, and it wasn't until I stepped back that I could see the whole picture. You need to step back, especially now he has been physically violent.

to you too.

iwant
The short answer to how you move from a brain fog, is that you leave him.
It's spaghetti head.

They twist and turn so much that you feel even though you know they are wrong, that you can't articulate why, because they will have a fairly plausible/ reasonable answer as to why you are not.
It's a mind fuck and that is their plan.

Why would you speak to someone like shut, and then bombard them with love messages in the same day?

Genuine question. I want you to think about why you might do that?

Shit not shut

I studied psychology at uni. We looked at experiments to do with rats. They were related to postive and negative conditioning and punishment.

The rat is in a cage with a button that when pressed releases a food pellet. Once learned, the rat will press it over and over. When the experimenter changes the terms, either, only has the pellet released after 5 mins of time, no matter how many times the rat presses the button, or only releases the pellet after the rat has pressed the button a set number of times (say 15), the rat quickly learns to wait 5 mins, and then press it, or press it 15 times in quick succession.

The only thing that gets the rat to continue to press that button over and over and over is when the experimenter does a random selection. So, 1 st time it's straight away, 2nd time after 15 goes, 3rd time when 5 mins has elapsed.

My point is, that when someone gives you no idea about how or when they will give you the love you crave, it keeps you on the hook harder and faster than any other type of love.

Eventually you realise that you can't live like that, but it takes different individuals, differing lengths of time to reach that conclusion.

I want, abusers have a script, & you are describing it perfectly.
The typical abusers cycle of pushing you into misery, then winding you back in with apologies (/crying/begging/flowers/promises) over & over, until you are so diminished you can not see anything but misery & unable to act.
It is literally torture.
The point is, you are trying to understand it, & then maybe you can change him, or yourself, to make it work.
It is hopelss, he is not going to change. they enjoy the power & are essentially lacking in confidence & enjoy controlling by any means other than just being lovable, making you just WANT to be loyal & love them.
It is a total mind fuck.
In your case, he actually getting physically violent.
Stop this downward spiral .

pudding, my lovely, of course you are crying. for what it could have been, lost promises, lost future, broken dreams & the whole load.
But my God, you are one lucky woman, you have your lovely little house, its yours, your kids are fine, you have a job, & money, (so many women in your situation have no job, no saving, no little bolt hole)
but every day, things will become a little bit more normal, & one day very soon, you will buy a bunch of daffodils & put them on your kitchen window sill & sing out loud to you fav music, & you will be out of the F O G

Naicehamshop,sassandfaff, TempusEedjit (well done on the weight loss) , EnormousTiger, Mix56: thank you for sharing your precious advice and stories. It really helps. And for your kind words.

dm86: how are things today? Did you go for a drink. Just so you know, I had been thinking like this for a long time, this included trying to make things work on family holidays, nights out, birthdays etc. I used to think, I can do this it will be ok and try and throw my all into everything. Then he'd get snappy or angry at me for something. I used to brush that off, but it got to the point where it would spoil a whole day, and I'd be worried about him being pissed with me so much i coulnd't breathe.

Beachbaby: how are things with you?

Loftella: any developments?

Innerwarrior: how has the weekend been so far?

Iwantausername: welcome to the thread, I hear what you are saying and I have just left and my brain feels cloudy. However, what has happened over the last few months in more frequency is the clarity of his behaviour is wrong and I don't need to put up with it. Start reading up about emotional abuse, and reads the signs. Speak to people in real life. If people tell you what you explain is abuse, believe them. Trust your instincts. By the way, its funny I can look at other people's situations and think its clear, but when its your own, its more difficult to gain clarity. I think I denied it so long becuase I was angry at myself for allowing it to continue, its like a blame thing, that YOU must have done something wrong. Noone is by any means perfect, but you do NOT deserve to be treated that way. He's hurt you physically too, now is the time to summon strength and get out of there if you can.

Mix56: thanks for telling me I am lucky. You are right, I am very lucky and I know many people (including ladies on this thread) feel trapped because their circumstances won't let them leave. I need to remember that, and I can do this :)

Ok so reflection on the last 24 hours.

Last night I cooked the boys meatballs and spaggetti on their request, I put the leftovers in a container too big for the job and didn't have anyone telling me the container was too big and change it, even though this would result in washing up one more thing. I also then knocked said oversized container onto the floor later on, and no-one scorned me for being clumsy idiot. WIN.

Last night I went to bed later than I normally would. As I took myself off to bed I felt relaxed (and a bit sad) but I thought about how for years I have gone to be almost at 10:30 every night like clockwork. To avoid bedtime sex (we had an ok sex life, but usually in the mornings) because I couldn't stand it if he had been drinking. I also liked to fall asleep before him because he snores a lot. I didn't sleep that great, but the house is comfortable if a little cold (off to buy heaters today :)......overall thats a WIN.

I also made gave the boys croissants this morning, and they were able to put their own jam on and we didn't have any telling us not to make a mess, or moaning that the boys get enough "treats" as it is. Another WIN.

I am sat on my computer and he isn't stood over me or I don't have to listen to him huffing and puffing because he HAS to plump up the cushions or wash up (of course he didn't have too....). He never relaxed, even at weekends (defo has some degree of OCD). Another WIN.

I can go to the gym this morning if I want and not feel guilty because HE has ideas what he wants us all to do, and that doesn't allow me 90 minutes to do my own thing. Even though I sometimes take the boys with me because they have a kids club. WIN.

I am starting to write all this down, so I don't forget. Because last night I texted him (because I care and wanted to see he was alright) and I don't want to start slipping back into his grasp. I am firmly in control. Repeat! Daily.

Thanks again everyone.

Oh pudding that's all really positive and you're right to note it all down. It definitely helps when you think there might be a risk you'll cave in.

Two years on and despite lots of practice doing the grey rock thing I still came close recently (funeral in ex's narc family that I forced myself to attend to watch over DS). But I noticed that when I listen to my gut there's a real difference between the feeling of caving in to the victim show and in being kind to a non toxic person: in the first case there's a knot in my stomach, there's that same fear/guilt thing being triggered even although my mind is feeling sorry for them.

So to anyone trying to unmangle the spaghetti (great image sass) try focusing on how you feel. Let go of understanding the person and see how you react physically.

I'm sure most people in loving relationships aren't feeling fearful, guilty and unsettled all the time. Even when they're love-bombing you don't feel relaxed.

Anyway, just a thought before lights outx

Even when they're love-bombing you don't feel relaxed.

I think this sums it up perfectly sinking.

Great line! I had a two hour FaceTime with my best mate tonight. Felt awesome! To speak to her being completely relaxed and not feel like I wasn't paying him enough attention!! Thanks mysinkingheart.

Morning all!

My sinking heart - you explained the feelings so well, that gnawing stomach churning feeling that is there constantly when you are with an EA! I've ignored that feeling for so many years.

Pudding- sounds like you are doing great, it's bound to feel scary, lonely and sad at times (that's when I got back with my DH.....I was feeling vunerable and listened to his promises of a better more caring life and here I am five years later in a worse financial situation that's making it more difficult to be free again, I wish I'd been stronger first time around and that I had this forum!!!)
Be strong, you have been incredible so far, keep writing everything down and enjoy doing the things you want without someone making you feel bad and anxious x please keep posting, gives me (and others I'm sure) inspiration.

I'm doing okay, no change, haven't given in, maintained my position. Had lots of chats where he has told me I am ruining the family and need to be nice again and try harder .....I seem to recall this same conversation a few times in the past😴........no real steps forward but no steps back either! Kept my no sex or touching ban and that in itself has me feeling better, I'm not dreading nighttime like I used to. Just feeling stuck!

Happy Monday everyone x

Ps thankyou for all your supportive posts - I read and made sure I didn't engage (as much as I could) during his talks.

THANK YOU ALL x

beachbaby18: you got this. You can do it, you have the hindsight from going back before so you know you will not make that mistake again, maybe that is what has been holding you back a bit. Detach emotionally......

Thanks for all the lovely well wishes. So, Saturday was really tough, I felt very emotional and felt like I was terribly guilty for breaking the family up. Yesterday I was much better and much more positive. I feel in control, everything is good. Its funny that almost everything I do, I realise I check myself before I do it because he might have got angry, or complain or nag, or whatever. Its quite liberating to feel like once again I am making my own decisions. The boys have been absolutely amazing. Yesterday we had to go to the house to pick a couple of things off, they just went in and got on with it. And when we left it was fine too.

So advice please, to be able to leave with as little stress as possible I didn't say to him it was totally OVER. I told him I need space, I want to be apart, i need time to think things through and that I don't know what the next few months hold. I told him I cannot promise anything. He is being very very civil and has suprised me. He even spoke to his Narc mother who was finally in 45 years supportive of her son (she told him she could see it coming as she was staying with us in Jan). She didn't side with him by the way, just gave him advice. His parents separated because of his Dads alcoholism and until his death lived 7 years apart, but remained friends. I am 99.9% sure i will NOT go back, but should I tell him that now? Or wait until he sorts himself out and things settle with the boys? I want to have a relationship with him on a friendship, my terms level. I spent 21 years with him. I don't hate him, I still have love for him, I still worry about him. Its too late for us to recreate anything as I know if he truely loved me like he says he did he wouldn't have spent the last years destroying me. I am so mixed in my emotions with him, but above all my nature is kindness, but I know I need to protect my heart and the boys as much as possible.

I know that when the time comes and I have to tell him, at least I have my own space and I won't have to listen to him sobbing. I'm thinking as close to Gwynnie and Chris Martin as possible (I know, I know, might be unrealistic, but I'd be happy to go for dinner with him etc so long as he isn't fucking with my head! You know in between these episodes we were good sad)

Thanks in advance smile

I am probably going to say what you don't want to hear, but I don't think you are going to be able to have this kind of friendly relationship with someone like him.

As for telling him, I would say do it sooner rather than later - a bit like ripping off a sticking plaster - but I know that's easier said than done.

Don't even try to have the friendship with him it isn't possible. He is the same person you left the one who will still try and hurt you, i found this out to my own cost.

You are doing great Pudding, I'm no expert in dealing with your situation, I really messed up when I left but I'd never heard of narcissism or even emotional abuse. I wasn't prepared mentally for what I was dealing with and went back with hope in my heart and 100% willing to give it my all in trying again.

I'd take it slowly with telling him. You've just been through leaving and its early days. Maybe carry on getting used to your freedom and gaining strength. Once you are emotionally stronger and free 100% mentally from him, then tell him. He knows that things aren't great , you've moved out, he's not silly so he's probably already thinking that this could be the end but I'd wait until you felt ready emotionally to go through battle number two of telling him it's definitely over.

as you know Im in the same situation, 21 years too except no kids at home involved and Im still at home. (think ducks in a row and money aspect too) I feel exactly like you do apart your H, and I expect to say something similar. I personally think you should play it exactly as you have and genuinely see how things go and how you feel. I certainly wouldnt deliberately antagonise the situation. You need to try and get your strength back at the moment . I would be cool, non needy and as friendly as poss without letting him "creep back in" . If it does get nastier at 6 months or whatever and its obvious you are ok, you will feel stronger and more settled.

I wouldn't tell him either. But nor would I believe we could be friends. (Hindsight)

If he starts to badger you about getting back together, then I would tell him. If not, just koko and don't bring unless are stress for the time being.

Find your feet, settle in to your new home, life, routine first. Then when you are stronger (you will definitely have more resolve in a bit than you have now) tell him then.

And don't bring on more stress for the time being.

Thanks ladies. Its amazing how you can get so much decent advice on here. So many strong supportive (and a few crazy posters) out there. Solidarity sisters!!

Well done pudding21! I wanted to post over the weekend but had to nc so you may not recognise me under this name but we've chatted and exchanged in recent weeks on here and at least one other thread . Lots of tense conversations have taken place here since last week's counselling session, but no real change. He is switching between nice and nasty, calm and aggressive, and I feel constantly sick, but am finding it impossible to come to terms with putting DS in the position of having to split his time between us. There have been several conversations about the practicalities of splitting up but we just end up going round in circles, not least because property around here is so expensive. So I'm working on changing my approach and have already tackled conflicts that I would earlier have avoided and caved in over and have started challenging comments makes. I'm still walking on eggshells, and I'm probably being massively unrealistic thinking that this can work, but I'm going to try for a bit longer, because I'm too much of a coward and too exhausted to do anything else at this point. If it wasn't for DS I'd have been out of here a long time ago. Hello Innerwarrior (and all you other amazing women). MN is a lifeline.

I've been there. In the summer when I wanted to go the thought of being separated even one day from the boys made my insides weep. I've worked on that by thinking the effects of staying and having two miserable parents and the joy sucked out of everything are worse than having a few nights with their dad. I honestly think he's a better parent when I'm not about. Much less stressy.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try but if you do prepare for further disappointment. I've been feeling terribly guilty today. Wobbling but I know it's the right thing. Good luck whatever you do but watch yourself and do carefully.

pudding, I would leave telling him its definitive for the moment, UNLESS, he starts making promises to the DC, or constant hassling.
He may even go off a find company elsewhere, how would you know?
I would avoid having "dinner", & being friends, it gives the wrong message & won't be good for the DC, altho you could aim for civil ! KOKO.
try not to talk, message & mail are less emotive, & help with paper trail.

pudding21 You're absolutely right and if I'm being realistic I think it's only a matter of time, and me getting all my ducks in a row, and getting up the courage. But in my down times I end up thinking it's a choice between my happiness and DS's, because I'd know he'd be happier with both parents in the same house; having to shuttle between us (and have his own independent life, as he's just 14 and will increasingly spend time with his friends anyway) would be stressful for him at a time when he already has the stress of puberty and GCSEs to deal with.

I hope your wobble has passed. I loved your WIN post above - those things, and all the others like them, are what to cling on to because they're what it's all about. I get those on the rare occasions when H is out of the house or when DS and I are out doing stuff without him, or when I'm out with friends or family (which I'm trying to do a lot more of). Precious ordinary, everyday life things that should be the norm not the exception.