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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Dating: should the man pay?

360 replies

PutneyPandora · 18/01/2017 18:29

Hi,
I've been out of the dating game for a while but wondered in the very early stages of dating should you let the man pay for drinks and dinner, go Dutch or offer to pay something towards the bill?
I don't want to come across as a cheapskate but equally don't want to come across like I expect him to pay.
Male or female opinions welcome!
ThanksSmile

OP posts:
HappyJanuary · 22/01/2017 21:27

I wasn't trying to explain my view on whether a man should pay. I've already said I don't care whether they do or not, I'll let people make their own choices.

I was making the point that some posters, in calling women derogatory terms merely for having the tenacity to hold a different opinion, were coming across as both angry and controlling.

I don't think pulling them up for putting other women down is particularly wrong or belittling tbh.

Whether women are being told what to think by men, or by other women who think they know better, both are equally wrong imo.

I don't think we'll ever agree.

Offred · 22/01/2017 22:04

Well no, that's rather the point. You weren't coming on the thread to post your views and therefore open them up to criticism. You were coming on the thread specifically to tear (particularly) other women down by insulting them with vagueries such as ;'angry women' who are 'as bad as the controlling men'...

Offred · 22/01/2017 22:06

And I repeat, so what if a poster happens to think that a woman is xyz thing if she expects a man to pay for her? What actual effect of control does someone's opinion have?

PutneyPandora · 22/01/2017 22:21

Offred I've just been reading the posts. HappyJanuary is merely expressing her point of view, yet because her viewpoint doesn't fit in with yours, you are continually questioning her and persistently seeking explanations and answers to which she has given you. Leave her alone. She has a right to an opinion as much as you do...so what if it differs? Perhaps the adult thing would be to agree to disagree and move on? HappyJanuary if your son wants to pay for his first date, he sounds a great catchSmile hope it goes well.

OP posts:
HappyJanuary · 22/01/2017 22:27

'You were coming on the thread specifically to tear (particularly) other women down by insulting them with vagueries such as ;'angry women' who are 'as bad as the controlling men'

When women use insults like those I listed earlier, for no reason other than someone having a difference of opinion, then I'm not going to apologise for calling those women 'angry' or 'no better than the controlling men'. Please. My tone was completely measured in comparison and the two phrases I used, and which you keep trotting out, were as nothing in comparison.

I can only assume that you think those posters were right to say the things that they did, and that I was wrong to criticise them for it. Fine. I fully accept your disapproval.

HappyJanuary · 22/01/2017 22:38

Thanks PutneyPandora. I'm sorry if we derailed the thread a bit. And yes, I hope ds is a good catch, I'm proud of him and have certainly tried to instil the right values. Good luck with the dating, whatever you decide to do with the bill!

womanwithoutasong · 23/01/2017 00:39

Expat I couldnt quite believe it to be honest. I was cross but fascinated. He was extremely well off so I can only assume that it was to do with entitlement or power (or just plain tight-fistedness). He did it with friends and family too. I did end up dumping him though. Smile

LittleOyster · 23/01/2017 01:06

A man should always pay on the first date IMO, as well as covering all the significant spends in the early days, although the woman can buy the odd few drinks or coffees here and there.

This is what I would do: wait for a man to ask me out, accept (assuming I liked him and thought there was a serious chance of things going further) and, if he was suggesting a flashy dinner, tell him I'd be happy just to do drinks. If he persisted with the dinner idea, I'd order from the less expensive end of the menu, and allow him to choose the wine. When it was time to pay, I'd let him make the first move, but I would offer to split it - not because I consider myself obliged to do so (he asked me out, afterall) but mainly so that I could see how he responded. If he accepted my offer, I'd pay, say my goodbyes and be sure never to see him again. If he refused, I'd thank him sincerely and tell him how much I had enjoyed myself. I certainly wouldn't feel obligated to have sex with him, or even see him again simply because he had bought me some food.

Although I would not have sex with a man just because he had paid for dinner, the fact that he did so is going to make it a lot more likely I'll want to shag him. I think it's important to establish the sexual dynamic in the early stages of dating, and the man deciding where we go, organising it and paying for it is a big part of doing that. Of course it's not equal, but what on earth does equality have to do with sexual desire? I really don't mind paying my way, and always do so when I am out and about with male friends, but if a guy wants to go Dutch on a date, that's where he'll end up - in the friendzone. It just kills the attraction. Him not paying is the equivalent of me turning up in my tracky bottoms and trainers, with hair undone and no make-up. It shows he is not that bothered about me, that he's not interested in impressing me or showing himself in the best possible light.

The equality issue is a red herring, in my view. Did he spend 2 hours getting ready for the date, removing every hair on his body, applying make-up and putting on uncomfortable shoes? No - he probably spent ten minutes in the shower. Did he get out of work early to get a manicure and his brows threaded? No, of course not. Did he have to arrange for an expensive babysitter to look after his kids. Unlikely. And is he coping, on a day-to-day basis with an economic settlement that greatly penalises him for the basic facts of his biology. No, he isn't. So I think he can cough up for a couple of drinks, don't you?

Trills · 23/01/2017 07:53

I would offer to split it ... If he accepted my offer, I'd pay, say my goodbyes and be sure never to see him again.

Sounds like a lucky escape for him.

Why would he want to be with a woman who makes insincere offers as tests? That doesn't sound like someone I'd want to be in a relationship with.

I only want to be with someone who, if they offer to do a thing, they are genuinely offering. Not someone who makes an offer but will be upset or offended or like me less if I accept that offer.

Bant · 23/01/2017 07:59

I want to be with someone who doesn't take two hours trying to make herself look attractive so she didn't have to pay for her own food.

I'd rather be with the one in the tracksuit who isn't so entitled and is far more honest.

MadHattersWineParty · 23/01/2017 08:03

oyster do you seriously regard a free meal as compensation for taking two hours to get ready and wearing uncomfortable shoes? Confused

If so that's very odd. It's just a very strange attitude to have.

expatinscotland · 23/01/2017 08:10

'He was extremely well off so I can only assume that it was to do with entitlement or power (or just plain tight-fistedness). He did it with friends and family too. I did end up dumping him though. smile'

It's just meanness. That's all. I drop people like that, even when not in a dating situation. I had one date like that, he ordered the most expensive cocktails, beers, starter, mains and dessert with coffee. Then pulled the ol' I forgot my wallet'. Yeah, right. I was a legal secretary and he was an actuary earning at least twice what I did. And he had his phone and car keys. Funny that. Fucking chancer. I simply called the server over and asked for a separate cheque. 'You're not going to spot me?' he asked. 'No.' 'How am I supposed to pay?' 'Phone a friend,' I suggested.

Nothing fascinating about twats like this. Drop.

Offred · 23/01/2017 08:37

It's nothing to do with her expressing a different point of view. It's to do with her belittling other people. HTH

Newbrummie · 23/01/2017 08:39

Dating isn't transactional and that seems what some are determined to see it as, paying for sex, compensation.... it's far more complicated than that.

LittleOyster · 23/01/2017 08:49

I am laughing at how vile I have made myself sound! Grin

MadHatters, I don't consider a free meal compensation for the the inconveniences I described. I undergo those simply because I quite like having sex with fit, attractive men and I find it's much easier to do that if I am groomed! It's not fair I have to do that, just as it's not fair that he has to pay - but it's how things are, and I don't think love/sex has much to do with fairness.

Actually, come to think about it, none of the men I have been in long term relationships have taken me on 'dates' or payed for stuff in a really stagey, ritualised way - our relationships have just evolved from a friendship. So maybe the behaviour I have described is better for short-term sex based relationships than for seeking a life partner.

Bant, most of the time I am the girl in the tracksuit who's paying her way, but I just prefer a different dynamic when I am relating to men sexually.

LittleOyster · 23/01/2017 08:52

Yes, I completely agree with you Newbrummie. It's about desire, and that's rare more mysterious than any rigid notion of 'equality'.

MadHattersWineParty · 23/01/2017 08:55

But your desire for a man is based on his ability to get his wallet out for you?

LittleOyster · 23/01/2017 08:58

Ooh, ps. should maybe add that I actually don't like expensive, flashy dates. It's not that I want a load of free stuff, but I do need to see that he wants to please me and that he knows how to take charge. Best date DH organised for us was a long bike ride and a lovely picnic, c. £10. He paid!!

LittleOyster · 23/01/2017 09:01

There are many different qualities that would make me desire a man, MadHatters, but if he can't/won't 'get his wallet out' as you say, that's going to kill it for me I am afraid.

MadHattersWineParty · 23/01/2017 09:01

Oh sorry, it's not just his ability to pay is it, it's his willingness. Otherwise he doesn't get another date with you. lucky escape

Chinnygirl · 23/01/2017 09:11

Split the bill so they can't expect a thank you in any form.

LittleOyster · 23/01/2017 09:17

People have all kinds of arbitrary, nonsensical criteria when it comes to sex and relationships. I have heard many women on Mumsnet saying they would dismiss a man who was under 6ft. That's not an issue for me: I happen to be attracted to height, but a man's character and behaviour is much more important. I had a very long and satisfying relationship with a man who was 5'6 (and skint, btw).

Similarly, some men would not consider going with a woman who was a small-chested as I am. That doesn't make them bad, or even shallow - it's just a sexual preference.

People are entitled to like what they like - there's no 'should' when it comes to love and sex.

Newbrummie · 23/01/2017 11:15

It's nothing to do with his ability to pay it's more about his willingness to treat you well. No different people will have different standards of expectations but the fact is if he can't or won't even buy me a few drinks then how on earth are we going to enjoy our lives together because I want a lot from life so if he can't or won't go along with that we are wasting each other's time .... better to find that out on the first date

Newbrummie · 23/01/2017 11:16

And as for wanting the girl in a tracksuit. Yeah right if I turned up for a date with no make up, hairy legs and scruffy clothes they'd be climbing out the toilet window

flamingc1appers · 23/01/2017 11:56

LittleOyster - your post made me laugh, but you are absolutely right,of course! I definitely would not be going on a second date with any man who didn't pay for the first (yes I would offer to pay too, but that's not really the point). He might as well be wearing a huge "FRIENDZONE" sign on his head! Of course I'm aware of the history of the economic power imbalance -aren't we all - but sexual attraction has nothing to do with this. It would be so utterly boring - like sucking the oxygen out if the air - to be wrangling over this kind of stuff on dates.