Dating: should the man pay?

[PutneyPandora]

Hi,
I've been out of the dating game for a while but wondered in the very early stages of dating should you let the man pay for drinks and dinner, go Dutch or offer to pay something towards the bill?
I don't want to come across as a cheapskate but equally don't want to come across like I expect him to pay.
Male or female opinions welcome!
Thanks

I would prefer to meet up in a cosy pub and go dutch.
That way if you don't like him he hasn't paid for your dinner and there is no guilt or obligation.
If he didn't offer to pay occasionally after several dates I'd think he was a bit mean and also I don't want to go out with someone who isn't flush enough to pay for a few dates.
Now I know that sounds mean and shallow but my last three long term relationships have been with men who had nothing, moved into my home and I basically paid for everything and I'm fed up with that.
I am looking for my equal or better now and expect to be treated like a lady. If I'm going to date again I'd expect them to have their own home and a job. I'm sick of spongers.

No I don't think people are splitting the cost for selfish reasons, that would be ridiculous.

My comments don't refer to people making their own personal decisions but really to those people who harangue others who make different choices and attempt to stifle disagreement by attempting to claim some sort of moral superiority where none exists.

Like by calling people 'angry women' and 'superior'... for example...

On a first date I think spilt things fair is fair.. at this point you don't know the person and they don't know you (i.e. No romantic feelings)

However once it got a bit more serious I'd appreciate the romantic of being taken out if that makes sense?

Mysterycat you are spot on. When we were first going out dh paid for the "pictures" and I bought the sweets. We went for lots of walks and had a lager and lime occasionally. Neither of us had much money. Now, he still expects to pay for everything when we go out. It's male pride. I pay for other things so in the end things work out. This has been the way of things for fifty eight years and like Mystery says it is his way of showing he is looking after you. Must say I can't stand lager and lime these days!

I mustn't be explaining myself very well.

Having different opinions and making different choices - fine.

Seeing other people making different personal choices and stridently haranguing them for it - not fine imo.

Halfs as a rule. However, if one (man or woman) asks the other out to a swanky/special place, that they insist on, then they should foot the whole bill.

Has anyone actually done that though?

Asking someone to explain why they think it is nothing to do with patriarchy is just normal if they have stated it is nothing to do with patriarchy and is just 'nice' or 'romantic' or 'wooing'.

Should be easy to answer TBF if they have genuinely thought about it from that perspective and decided it isn't to do with patriarchy.

Rightly or wrongly it is still considered a societal norm amongst many that the man offers to pay for a first date especially if he has done the asking out. Whilst that expectation is still fairly prevalent then yes I would probably judge a man for not offering to pay if our date had gone well. In my circles every man I've known of who goes straight for splitting the bill without at least offering to pay has subsequently proved to be a tight arse - nothing to do with respecting women.

However I would equally judge a woman who didn't offer to at least split the bill in response to the man offering to pay especially if she knows she'd say no to a second date. I hate it on First Dates when you see the woman sitting back clearly expecting the man to put his hand in his pocket even when she doesn't want to see him again!

I do think if someone asks the other one out then its usual for them to pay.

Most first dates I've been on the bloke had offered to pay and insisted when I said il pay half, it can be uncomfortable if there's no connection and you realise this person isn't for you and paid so I do prefer the Dutch way then I don't feel a sense of duty to him because he's paid to go on another date.

Offred, Well a quick scroll through reveals that those saying they prefer to pay half are allowed their opinion largely without criticism or challenge.

Some of the comments levelled at those who are happy to allow a man to pay on the first date :

Where's your self esteem
You're establishing a relationship of inferiority
So the little woman needs looking after
That doesn't make you sound like a very nice person
Women have such low self esteem
Like a precious little doll that needs looking after
Don't assume the role of a child or prostitute

I got about half way, and ignored those posts where people merely offered an explanation for their decision or asked a reasonable question about equality.

So yes, some unnecessarily unpleasant comments levelled at those who don't mind a man paying on the first date imo.

Not debating, not trying to seriously change anyone's world view, just an air of superiority and criticism.

Happy it's the times when you hear a man say all he has to do is grab her by the puss and he can get what he want. He is the most powerful man in the world as a woman I am pissed. Reading Jamie Ohara's outgoings for child support etc made me wince where is she living a palace. The courts aren't equal women still get the majority of a mans fortune. Even if she works. It's how men perceive women nowadays they read stories about Jamie Ohara and Paul Mccartney they think shit. What does a first date say about a woman because 1st impressions last.

A bit like 'angry women' and 'superior' and accusing people of making up objections to suit said general 'superior attitude' then...

Still waiting BTW for an explanation from anyone who thinks they are not ideas drawn from the patriarchy and are just nice or romantic to explain why... also find it quite strange you needed to ask your son re your opinion.

I think people go into relationships with different ideas about "equality". Some women equate equality with going back to work as soon as possible after having a baby so that their career and financial independence suffers as little as possible. You only have to read MN to see how many couples maintain separate bank accounts even when married with several children. I would think these people are fine to split bills 50/50 when dating because they are starting as they mean to go on.
Other women may feel strongly about wanting to SAH with DC for an extended period and will consequently tend to seek out and filter men who are able and willing to financially support this type of family structure. They don't equate equality with "sameness" and believe people can benefit from having different roles within a relationship and neither needs to fell diminished as a result. Many men have these kind of expectations too so again, these type of couples are starting as they mean to go on.
There is no right or wrong.

In most divorces now men do not get taken to the cleaners nor do they do 50% of the child rearing. Friend of mine is divorcing a wealthy man she is likely to get 60% despite the fact that he's washed his hands of his own children, doesn't even want weekends

'also find it quite strange you needed to ask your son re your opinion'

Why are you banging on about this? I have already answered you once. This is what I mean by haranguing. What about my first explanation didn't satisfy you?

I asked him what his motives were when he offered to pay on a first date. I wondered whether the motives I ascribed to a man offering to pay were broadly correct or wide of the mark. Out of interest. What is strange about that exactly?

Because you haven't actually explained why you think it isn't a tradition rooted in the patriarchy or why you think it says nice things about a man or what those nice things are.

See I wouldn't have bothered asking you about any of those things if you hadn't come right in with sexist comments like 'angry women' which have often been used to dismiss women complaining about oppression from the patriarchy.

Asking you to explain why you have made a statement is not haranguing.

Happy pointless posting about your son and what he would do. He will not tell you anything apart from what you want to hear. He can't do nothing wrong in your eyes.

Another one here who always pays at least half on dates (not just first) and I have paid for dinner in full were Ive been the one to offer the invitation. Men have always been suprised and delighted. Ive dated men who bever bought me a drink or a meal, men who regularly forgot their wallets and men who insisted on paying for everything.

Apart from one very well off boyfriend, Ive always been the higher earner. I prefer going dutch generally as I work and think it's fair.

Sadly, I do know lots of women who expect the man to pay on dates. They think it's 'gentlemanly' and 'traditional.' I do live in a traditional Midlands town though. People are still shocked that Ive never been married and have no children - almost unheard of here.

Well no, it's not that it is pointless, it is weird. I asked a woman what she thought about something and she asked her son and told me what her son said...

It was specifically that she said she thought it said nice things about a man, that have nothing to do with sexism, if he felt he should pay. Still none the wiser re nice things that are not sexism related just weirdly had a woman who seems to think she needs to ask her son's opinion on her opinion...

And I might remind that what I said upthread was that because this is still considered 'a thing' plenty of men feel obligated to offer and are relieved to share and I don't have an issue with them. It is specifically the men who feel 'emasculated' by not paying for everything for a woman that I tend think 'nope, gonna swerve that one'.

Offred,

It's not sexist to say that someone (no idea who is male or female on here) is posting in a strident or unpleasant way.

You are certainly very keen to hear what I think about first date payment etiquette.

Personally I am ambivalent, people should do whatever suits them or what they themselves feel comfortable with.

This thread proves that some women are offended if the man pays, and some are offended if he doesn't.

Luckily, there are some men who want to pay in full, and some who don't think that they should for various reasons.

As they say, there's someone for everyone.

But I would not assume that a man offering to pay disrespects women, or that a woman accepting his offer is akin to a doll, a child or a prostitute setting herself up for a relationship of inequality.

I think if someone, anyone, offers to pay the full bill in a restaurant then that says nice things about them - they care about their date's opinion of them, they're being generous, they're hoping for a second date, they're a kind person.

Of course they could be pretending for their own nefarious purposes, but I would take it at face value initially.

I didn't ask my sons opinion on my opinion.

I didn't tell him my opinion at all.

This is getting bizarre.

In theory it would be ideal if everyone went dutch, but the trouble is that it's a huge red flag when the man starts havering about paying, either offering or actually forking out.

I loathe this idea that paying for a date is akin to prostitution - misogyny at its foullest, and all the worse as women tend to be the ones to spout this line.