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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

support thread for those of us having to 'co-parent' with a narc or very difficult exh 2

954 replies

Lilacpink40 · 18/10/2016 18:14

Hope this works...

OP posts:
Lilacpink40 · 06/11/2016 19:40

Ohb I'd write a serious message to him by email telling him that you have concerns and quoting example of his worst messages back. He's clearly not thinking straight that you can use his messages against him, so likely to write worse again, e.g. "sod you I'll do what I like, I'm in control" type messages.

He then can't deny he didn't mean it, if you write a truthful non-inflamatory message and he tells you he meant it all. He may say sorry for the original messages, it may backfire or he realises he shouldnt give you evidence , but I expect he'll say worse.

OP posts:
nicenewdusters · 06/11/2016 19:46

From what I read on here the courts are curiously unpredictable places. However, the very specific and direct threats made to you, in writing, and on more than one occasion, are, I think, serious. We all get upset. You're upset at the moment with your ex. But you haven't sent him a text that says I hope you die so that I can bring up my son on my own. There's being upset/angry/cross - and then there's your ex's threats. Different league.

Ohb0llocks · 06/11/2016 21:05

Those messages were months ago. What if they disregard them? I know how cold the family courts can be and that they let children down.

I'm just so terrified he will get him unsupervised and not give him back.

My son is my life, we got through all of this together, he's my shining light in a black horrible world. I couldn't bear to be without him for any length of time.

nicenewdusters · 06/11/2016 21:18

I understand your very real concerns Ohb, and for obvious reasons you're escalating the situation in your mind to the worst possible outcome.

But do you really think a man such as your ex wants a 3 yr old child he doesn't even know 24/7? He hasn't even seen him for a year. Yes, he wants to be unkind to you, but total responsibility for his ds, no way.

And who looking at the two of you would decide the life you've given your son is no good, and that he can provide a "better" one?

As for the messages. I don't think it matters how old they are. A threat is a threat. Has he changed? No, and he'll soon show his true colours again.

greencarbluecar · 06/11/2016 22:46

frog and dusters thank you. You've both confirmed thoughts I had and raised with him. It's not ok, is it? It's all very strange, a week ago I would have said he's the best man I know. He has helped a lot with WN, for example. But this...? It doesn't add up and although he's had a hard time (ahem) I'm struggling to reconcile this behaviour with the man I know. Feeling so worthless is what's brought WN's poison back to the fore. I wonder if those seeds are now sown forever and will rear their ugly heads like a reactivating virus at difficult times. A WN horror film plot in the making.

oh as far as I'm aware they should consider anything within the last two years, possibly longer. Things to do, to keep focus:

Everything dusters said

Get calling everywhere you can think of for advice and making a paper trail. GP already mentioned, also try WA, legal helpline (think one is called Right's of Women, possibly also Family Lives?), does Gingerbread have anything? Not used them myself but it can't hurt to get as much help as possible.

Write out a contact pattern you'd like or at least accept, so you have it ready and have time to think it over until you're satisfied with it.

Do something for you, that you enjoy. Don't forget yourself in this.

Remember, if you have an order in place, that should state where your DS lives. So if he has him he will HAVE to return him to you, by law. Getting an order could remove that worry for you.

2012PP · 07/11/2016 07:43

GREEN "How I'll ever trust myself again I don't know, and I think that's one of the biggest things WN has taken from me.."
I totally understand this feeling. It's so hard to know. Do you have a trusted friend in rl you can talk it through with?

DUSTERS/ I like the idea of saying positives things to yourself out loud. I going to give it a go, though I feel a bit silly, Im sure it's a good thing.

FROG: you totally hit the w/n-nail on the head : "If Ex is so concerned about your parenting capacity then where the fuck is he?
If he was a good parent and had reasonable grounds for removing DC from your care he would have done so."
So so so so so so true.

OHB: I also think that keeping a copy of all correspondence/text/email from w/n from however long ago is a good idea.
The spreadsheet of dates with related comments sounds good.
I've kept one of non attendance and trips away and made an email folder where I transfer all emails too.
It makes for some reading as I'm sadly sure everyone else's do too 😳

Natsku · 07/11/2016 08:49

I'm sure they'll take into account the threats Ohb even though they're old because they are still very relevant.

Ohb0llocks · 07/11/2016 10:45

I know you're all right but I'm not sure if maybe asking if we can go to mediation will help? What's a solicitor likely to say?

Froginapan · 07/11/2016 11:38

OhB.

A good solicitor who has experience of DV/EA cases will advise against mediation.

Mediation with a narc-type person is like trying to shovel snow with a teaspoon in the middle of a blizzard: you look like you're making progress but once you stand back and look at the bigger picture you realise it's an impossible task. Types like your ex will at best completely fool the mediator and at worst repeatedly not turn up for sessions and yet somehow twist it to be all your fault.

It's a complete waste of time.

Stay firm. Be reasonable - which from what I can see you are doing and wait for him to take you to court (I honestly doubt he will - this is another way to control you)

bibliomania · 07/11/2016 11:41

Sorry to burst in on an existing conversation, but does anyone have advice about handling a dc feeling guilty? DD had her contact with her father drastically reduced as he was putting her under huge emotional strain (agreed by SS, school and then judge, so not just my interpretation).

She misses him. He's a typical Jekyll and Hyde, and sometimes he'd loving and warm and generous, and she misses that, and blames herself for telling "lies" about him which got their contact reduced. She keeps saying it's all her fault and she shouldn't have said anything. She's about to turn 9.

Obviously I say it's not her fault, but she won't accept it. I try to tell her that the same concerns existed before she could even talk, but it starts sounding like I'm criticising him and wanting her to take sides, which makes her feel more guilty.

I've put her on the waiting list for the Relate children's counselling service, but no idea how long it will take to get to the top of the queue.

Any wise words about how to help her deal with the situation?

contrary13 · 07/11/2016 12:16

Can I join? It's just that if I don't get this out of my head, it'll fester and my wankbadger of an ex will have won...

My ex and I split up 7 years ago, when I discovered that he was cheating on me (actually on the day his now-wife gave birth to their oldest DC, when he took DS out for the day, then called to say "yeah; he has a new sister and I'm taking him to the hospital to meet her!" I think that alone might tell you what he's like as a person!). I have two DC - DD, 20, who isn't my ex's, but he had been in her life on a daily basis from the time she was a baby and who always... always... considered him to be "dad", and DS, who turned 12 on Friday. Ex sees DS EOW for 9 hours on the Saturday - which is his choice. There are no week-night teas, no trips out, nothing. Ex has refused point blank to see DD at all since we split - and when she's been at his parents, and he's turned up... he's blanked her completely. His wife (who didn't know he already had a family, he'd take DS to meet her when DS was very small, maybe 3 or so... and claim that he was his nephew) is lovely. I had their two DC here for the weekend, so that they could participate in their older brother's birthday (and so that my ex could take Mrs Ex away for the weekend).

Every year since DS was born, ex has made a big deal out of his birthday. When we were together, there were demands that I keep him up until he got home from work (usually about 9 or 10 o'clock at night), and then when we split... there were telephone calls on the day itself. Which would be fine if (a) my DS would actually use the telephone - he has overly sensitive ears and, because it hurts, he refuses point blank to, unless it's on speaker, and (b) not whine about his upset at not seeing DS that day... which, because the 'phone is on speaker, I've always had to listen to. This year, we were expecting the same to happen. A call from a man-child in which he whines about not seeing DS that day, and how tough his life is, and... no interest in DS whatsoever.

Except... there was radio silence on the day itself. Not a problem, I said to DS (who was actually quite upset), you'll see him in the morning when he drops your little brother and sister off for the weekend...

But it was ex's mother who dropped them off (her card to DS had arrived 3 days earlier). And collected them again on the Sunday afternoon (and in hindsight, I don't know why I didn't ask why their grandparents - who also have limited contact with my DS - couldn't have the little ones!).

No card, no call, no... nothing.

Except a throwaway remark from my ex's mother concerning the fact that her man-child of a son is still upset about the fact that our DS went on a school trip on "their" (not "his", mind, but "their", as he dumps DS on his wife/parents/siblings/aged grandmother at every opportunity, rather than spend time with him, one-to-one, himself) Saturday with him. Yep, that's right. A school trip. I didn't see DS that weekend, either, from Friday morning (my birthday, as it happens) until past his bedtime on the Sunday night - and on the Monday, he was off to school at the usual time with everyone else who'd gone on the trip, so other than "hello, goodnight, see you later!", DS, DD and I were passing ships.

DS has had an awful lot to contend with this year, because of his sister's MH issues (which I've posted about on here before). The school trip was meant to be something that would allow him to spend time with his friends, experience new things, and - I was hoping - lead to eventual overnights with his grandparents every now and then, which his younger siblings get to do every week, at least once. What I wasn't expecting was that he'd end up being punished by ex because of it.

Because that's what it is, isn't it? Punishment. Ex couldn't get his way... because I agreed to allow DS to do a one-off trip with his school and enjoy himself (which, thankfully, he did), so he'll completely ignore his birthday.

Instead, DS pointed out to me this morning as he was leaving for school, that we were used to mind ex's "new family" whilst he went on holiday (something else that he does on a frequent basis on "his" Saturdays with our DS... which we know nothing about until his mother turns up to get him and it's "oh, he and [his wife] have taken [the children] away to X/Y/Z for a week in the sun!", and which also hurt DS who knows that if asked because ex has no PR for DS, again his choice... he refused to be on the birth certificate and as we weren't married, I couldn't have him added, I would have agreed to).

I'm just so angry that he's now starting to punish our DS, the way he used to punish me if I or DD didn't do as he wanted all of the time... and so very sad that my beautiful boy is probably going to end up being treated like his older sister, by the man whom they both call "Dad", through no fault of his own. But I won't have his "new family" here again. Not after watching the misery on my DS' face when they were (innocently, they're only 7 and 5 after all) telling him all about how their Daddy took them to this place, and did that with them, and has promised them the other all weekend.

The weekend directly following his birthday, which was ignored by their Daddy.

Angry and yet also Sad

bibliomania · 07/11/2016 13:33

Oh your poor dcs, contrary. That is such calculated cruelty on their "father"'s part (inverted commas because he is unworthy of that name).

nicenewdusters · 07/11/2016 15:47

Biblio and contrary. I have a heavy heart just from reading your posts, so much unfairness. Need to run just now, but Flowers.

PurpleThursday · 07/11/2016 16:56

Just flying out the door but wanted to quickly say.. I went on a Separated Parents Information Programme today. I think it is run through CAFCASS but this was actually via mediation. Many of you may know if this type of thing, and it does go over a lot of the basics e.g. How important taking your children's feelings into account is and effective communication between parents being important etc. CROCK OF SHIT if you are dealing with a WN .. anyway, they showed us a website www.theparentconnection.org.uk which apparently has loads of good advice/support and ideas. May be of interest to some of you (I hope).

PurpleThursday · 07/11/2016 17:00

By the way I sat next to the most gorgeous man on the course (and I find NONE of them gorgeous anymore!! He restored all my faith is dads. Was genuinely caring about his kids, puts their needs first endlessly and is being messed around by X who has new partner and wants to instantly remove kids with him to another country. Court currently going on for him. Was so refreshing and much needed at the moment.

lovelilies · 07/11/2016 17:03

Just after some quick advice.. ExP
Is having trouble accepting that our relationship is over. He 'doesn't understand' why am I breaking up the family etc etc. He's not paying full maintenance I'm owed, I've asked for the rest today via text.
He's trying to ingratiate himself with my DD 1 by offering to buy her stuff for her horse
He wants to see the little ones too so I've said I'll meet him at a soft play area rather than having to try and get rid of him at mine.

donners312 · 07/11/2016 17:18

I had to go on that separated parents thing too purple. What a waste of a day if you were dealing with someone reasonable you wouldn't be there in the first place.

The funniest thing they said was "even just changing your tone of voice can really help improve things between you and your ex!!!" as if!!!!

I had to go on my birthday. He still hasn't been to his and we were meant to go 6 months ago it was court ordered but he just does what he like.

sorry to hear all that contary13 - he just sounds vile but there will be no reasoning with him and you being nice and helping out with his kids etc will just make him think what a mug you are.

does your son want to see him??

nicenewdusters · 07/11/2016 18:47

Purple That course sounds like the kind of thing that has you biting the arm of your chair ! Had a quick look at the website, seems quite useful. There's something called the Listening Room, a 15 minute on line chat dealing with mediation and the courts etc. Thought this might be of use to you Ohb given your current concerns.

My insurance money for the car is safely tucked up in my bank account. Have sought advice from the insurers re twat's refusal to sign the form. As per the course, maybe I should try asking in a different tone of voice, "Oh, lovely twat, could you possibly avoid derailing mine and the dc's life by just popping your signature on here?" Yeah, that'll work Grin

greencarbluecar · 07/11/2016 19:41

Changing my tone of voice, you say? It's that simple?! Now why didn't I think of that?

That almost feels like victim blaming. If I'd just got my tone right, maybe he'd never have put his hands to my throat.

FFS.

greencarbluecar · 07/11/2016 19:44

biblio I've heard women's aid have a children's course, could that be worth enquiring about? It sounds really tough for you both.

contrary I have no words. You sound like a saint. Your poor DC. They don't deserve this and he certainly doesn't deserve them.

nicenewdusters · 07/11/2016 20:00

Meant to say Purple did you kidnap gorgeous man? Can you find out his secret, are there lots of other men like him living on an island somewhere?! We need details and a map reference.

Saw Mr Heart Jump today. Unfortunately where he was means I'm unlikely to see him tomorrow. So, I said shit or bust.... I'm seeing someone tomorrow who uses his business. I'm going to ask for the details, then see if he's free this Thursday to give me a quote. I might lose my nerve, but let's see. I feel a bit like a spider trapping it's prey, poor guy!!

PurpleThursday · 07/11/2016 20:04

One scenario they used on a film clip was SO shit. They showed a woman dropping her 2 children at a contact centre to see their father and how the kids weren't keen to go in and she was anxious asking the staff if they would be ok/supervised etc and basically asking for reassurance as they were upset and hadn't seen the father for a long time . The implication was meant to be that your (meaning her) anxiety can be transferred to the children and you need to be careful of that. What a load of bollocks!! I said that she obviously had valid concerns and the failing was the systems for not taking those VALID emotions into account - not hers for feeling them!!!

nicenewdusters · 07/11/2016 20:06

greencar I didn't realise your ex had done that to you. There's no words, no wonder your dealings with him are so difficult for you. He's an excuse for a person.

PurpleThursday · 07/11/2016 20:09

Do you know dusters I behaved MOST out of character. I was so touched by his situation and possibly his lushness that I actually gave him my email address as I left and said to let me know how things went for him. I just thought 'bugger it!' Life is too short and this guy is my kind of person, how much would I regret not telling him and just disappearing with no prospect of ever seeing him again. I don't mean a romantic liaison necessarily I'm too fragile for that and he was quite possibly out of my league anyway but do you know what? He emailed me 5 minutes after we went our separate ways saying we should keep in touch and wishing me a positive outcome for court this week and to keep strong!!!!! So pleased I risked it!!! Wink

PurpleThursday · 07/11/2016 20:09

Go for it dusters! If I can jump in so can you - and what is there to actually lose??