"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

My DM isn't thinking of how she'll cope in old age, even now. When she's been in hospital and needed short term care afterwards she's just assumed that we'd provide it. More than that, she believes she's entitled to it.
So there's no need for her to bother trying to manipulate is into by guilt tripping. The problem actually lies in the feeling of entitlement. Because she feels our help I'd hers to take as and when she wants, we become her slaves and let's just say she's not a kind slave owner!
The upshot is that DM reverts back to the exact same controlling, critical behaviour that she displayed when she last felt complete control over me and I find it even harder to take age 50, than i did age 15. That's why I am NC now

Bloody hell Tarbert that's exactly it. And if NC might as well be somewhere, anywhere else no reason to stay near her physically.

As my sister is such a wonderful person in comparison to me, I hope she will be stepping up when the time comes

Oh gosh Tarbert you're not one of my siblings are you?! That's just how my mother is aswell. From a young age she drummed it into me how she would move in with my family and I to be looked after, umm mm no! And when I was ten I told her that, she got so angry, not mad and screaming, but her treatment of me worsened for days after

I think children should help their parents in old age, and I don't think the parents need to plead for it, or prostrate themselves in gratitude. However, there has got to be mutual respect on both sides, and in my case, DM is incapable of being respectful of her children.
So, with me, she has blown it, as I'd give her my time and care, but I will not allow her to make my life a misery.
I know its the right decision - in fact, its the only choice open to me because of the way DM behaves towards me specifically - but I'm not 100% comfortable with it as I think my siblings might attempt to do my share and I know she's difficult with everyone.

Hello all [waves]

I've seen this thread going on since my DD1 was born. Have been meaning to pop in for support and to share. My story. Yes.

D is a sociopath. M is a schizophrenic with strong narc tendencies. One DB; alcoholic. Lives at home, never left (38). No friends, no job, no life.

Emotional, psychological and some physical abuse. D attempting to attack me when drunk when 15 for example. Refused to apologise. When I was 5, just as one single example or it would be a TL:DR, I was crying on my bed. D walks in and says that he 'Hopes that I die. That he wants me to rot away until there is just a skeleton on my bed'. I told M and she said I was lying. I tried to run away many times when small. I used to daydream that my real parents would come for me.

Now its DB and D who physically fight. Police get involved. hence for years now my two are not allowed overnight stays.

Background full of gaslighting, denial, deflection, blaming me. D especially likes to mock my (not inconsiderate) educational and work achievements. He is cold, calculating, selfish and entitled. A bully and a coward.

Eventually, their treatment of DB got so bad, I went NC with them in Sep. Queue online stalking, harassment through phones. Police involved. Building to a pitch again as it did before Xmas, the DS's birthday in Jan and now DD's at the end of this month.

So much more to say but will leave it for now.

Tarbert sorry I came across as a bit harsh, I already feel guilty thinking about it. Just not sure whether it would destroy me. But aware I probably should do it anyway when the time comes.. don't know.

Was watching a YT video about co-dependency earlier and so many things this person said rang true - it was all about the value you place on yourself coming from people outside of you because of the way you were raised. Not explaining it very well but it made sense. Does anyone else here have contact with their family and it sends them into this spiral of negative, paranoid, almost manic analysing and nervousness with everything else in their day? A little situation like this and suddenly it's like everything else starts unravelling or at least is much. much harder to deal with.

My background nothing like what you are describing 7 that sounds awful

@mylongawaitedlife My post wasn't chastising you! I was thinking I'd not said it well, so I was just trying to fix a possible, bad impression that I'm selfish.
I've made a call that DM will not be allowed to ruin what's left of my life. That means she won't get care from me in old age. I'm not happy about that, but the solution is in her hands. She doesn't have to say what she does and sigh and puff whenever things aren't exactly what she wants. I served her tea in one of her larger mugs. She didn't have to drink it all, and it was in her cupboard so I didn't know that it isn't the size she wanted. Every time after that i gave her the size she prefers. But she went on and on about it for 24 hours. That's the sort of thing i mean when I say she has a choice about her behaviour

YY It is difficult to be sure that you've explained yourself the wrong way and not left things open to a bad interpretation when that wasn't what you meant. I've never thought about it before, but it probably is something to do with the rows when I was growing up.

Something that I strive for all the time when speaking to people is to make sure my meaning is clear in my opening sentence because I know what happens if the first sentence is open to misinterpretation and you get cut off and shouted at, accused of all sorts of things before you get a chance to clarify on the 2nd sentence. Its why I prefer written messages.

@7feathers I hardly know what to say. Its sounds hideous. far worse than anything I experienced

Hi. i don't pop up very often, but I do read everything. Time - I think I'd be on here for hours , agreeing with everything.It's lovely to see people working things through. Constructive discussions - rather than the ears shut, huff and puff dysfunctional communications that I imagine we grew up with.

7feathers . Sounds a heavy burden. Please carry on posting. Especially as it's all blowing up again. The support is invaluable.

Re the elderly DM conundrum. I agree with the dilemma. Mine is becoming increasingly frail and isolated. She can't seem to realize that it would be better if she tried to control her demands to be looked after [ solely by family ] - and genuinely nicer. I've been LC for a month now. As Tarbert says, I've also made the call that she's not going to spoil the rest of my life [ I'm 60]. But I don't want to feel that I'm being unpleasant and neglectful myself ? Still thinking . It will have to be on my own terms from now on though.

Hi Tarbert I do struggle with knowing how to read people
At least not the only one where older care is concerned
I have a friend (not UK) who has insisted her DM attends therapy sessions with her before she will engage.. but still hasn't managed to effect much change in her DMs behaviour. Has stuck to her guns and not rushed every time the DM calls. A bit like the roles are reversed and the parent is being schooled like a child? But when they are so stuck in their ways.

Hi, I feel a bit bad re-joining MN because I only joined to go on SH threads. I hope that is allowed. When i posted before under a different name I was advised by other MNs to go on here .The thing is, I have had my experiences of what my DF did to me and my sibling as abuse but I still struggle deep down with thinking I am not allowed to call it that? After all the help I have had with my mental health over the years (DBT, CBT, counselling, ED help, help for BPD etc) you would think by now I would get it into my head and stop blaming myself.
I still think it was my fault because although my sibling and my mum didn't deserve what they went through I was a handful growing up. Some of the things I did include quite self destructive behaviour and lashing out as others (not Queen Bee type bullying but more of a Victim-Bully type thing) and I saw things in black and white (probably because of personality disorder (borderline) and OCD (diagnosed) and possible ASD (not yet diagnosed) so very argumentative and threw what looked like tantrums but were really due to utter terror (being unable to control my surroundings, anxiety), also had mild learning issues (dyscalculia) so not doing well at school, which led to my hair being pulled, screamed at, threatened with beatings by DF for poor work.

And my DF could be very loving and kind at times. When he wasn't kicking off. My DF wasn't a calculated monster type of abuser just very well meaning but invalidating, angry, violent and controlling. W e think he may have been bipolar or ASD but he was not diagnosed. He belongs to a culture and religious background which does not belief mental illness and psychiatry are valid or acceptable.

Why do i still need validation after all these years? Apologies fo rbeing a drain on here. I really do care about other people's experiences (sort of, when I'm well enough) but right now I feel I have nothing to give. Sorry. Been triggered again tonight an ddon't know why it still hurts?!

I have had my experiences of what my DF did to me and my siblings as abuse sorry that should say had my experiences validated as abuse. sorry

BTW, when I mentioned I joined MN previously and namechanged the reason I have been doing this is because I join, try to find the words to talk about what happened to me but then feel bad I told so end up deleting straight after posting. I know I probably shouldn't do that so I am trying to stay on here now and if i leave to not come back because I don't want to deceive anyone. I just feel so afraid of writing my experiences as they don't feel bad enough to qualify as abuse even though I have been told they do??? Sorry if i'm not making sense.

been reading and responding to random threads on AIBU, chat etc just to try distract myself from how I am feeling. Want to play music which sometimes helps but no headphones and my flat has thin walls. Wish I had courage to phone a helpline but it is easier typing than using a phone. Really thought I had got over the waking up in the wee hours feeling like this

Hello 7feathers

longawaited
Was watching a YT video about co-dependency earlier
Could you link to that? I'd be interested in seeing it.

Hi justagirl. It's absolutely fine to come on and just talk about your own situation without commenting on other people's. It's fine as a matter of principle, we are happy to listen, but if that bit of you that feels ashamed for needing help is being triggered off, tell it that half the usefulness of SH comes from the record of people's experiences that we can all read and recognise and draw from. And regarding accepting that it's not abuse, well, that's the first abusive thing that we suffered: being led to believe that we were being treated with love, being led to believe that we deserved it.
I'm really sorry to hear that you've tried so hard to get well, yet you still suffer from the effects of your childhood abuse. That is a really tough thing to deal with.
One thing I wonder if you've looked at, is CPTSD? Sorry, this is sort of my new toy at the moment, but it might be applicable. A lot of your behaviour - that panic, the "tantrums" - sounds like it could be related to emotional flashbacks and I notice you mention zoning out on MN as a way of dealing with the emotion - that sounds like dissociation. Pete Walker's website (link on the OP) has a ton of stuff about this, and you might also be interested in - he's a bit sweary but he talks a lot of sense.

Bloody hell people, we're at 990! Shall I start the next thread? Gosh, I've never done that before!

Hi @justagirl I felt the same a couple of months ago regarding posting on here. I was in such a bad place that I couldn't even look at the thread for days on end, never mind read about what other people were currently going through and think what might help make them feel better.

I'm telling you this because I hope it will reassure you that you will start to feel better about it as time goes by and then the thread will help. At first the challenge is just to write down some of your experience, and although that will probably upset you again, it will also be the start of feeling better.

Just take it one step at a time, don't make the pain any worse, and slowly you'll realise that you aren't alone and that will help you to get it in perspective.

WRT to blaming yourself, my gut instinct is that that is a big one for you to tackle head on now. Leave it to the side, and when the thoughts flash over your mind, rather than looking at the big picture, just ask your self what advice you'd give to a 10 year old who was blaming themselves for the thing that happened to them that you are remembering. That worked for me to stop me bullying myself. (Hope that makes sense).

Right, I've done the new thread - Steve, I added that book you recommended. See you all over there later!

Dobby rest assured - you don't have to be like them. I too have long term MH issues due to my upbringing, which have prevented me from having a career, but I'm so proud that DC live in a calm, kind house where they are listened to and noticed and not emotionally tormented or abused or ignored or physically neglected. I am incredibly proud of breaking that cycle and watching them thrive.