"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Is Sitters expensive? - not sure I can afford to actually pay for a babysitter, unfortunately.

So there's a history of events over a length of time, despite you trying to explain yourself (you really have no obligation to do so) it's twisted back on you as all your fault. They sound toxic. Very toxic. They take zero responsibility for their past behaviour and actions.

I understand you want your daughter to have the best family structure she can, but thrusting her into a toxic environment will harm her far, far, more than keeping her away from such people will. As Attila wrote - toxic parents usually gravitate into toxic grandparents.

I think you're stuck in the FOG - Fear, Obligation, Guilt. Give the Out of the Fog website a Google. There's a good book by the same name.

Given what you have further written I would not let them look after your DD at all. You also need to keep your distance both emotionally and physically, its far too easy to be drawn back in.

These people were not good parents to you, they will not be decent grandparent figures to your child. What you both need are positive and life affirming role models outside of family. It takes a village to raise a child.

Re what your parents said as well this is a red flag right there:-
"Stepdad told my DM had been having nightmares due to me not being in touch, things like that - which I guess was partly putting the blame back on me".

Yes it is very blaming behaviour. Neither of them contacted you even though they could have done. They have not really changed; I think that given time they will revert to type.

Re Sitters this is what you need to look at:-
www.sitters.co.uk/cost.aspx

Crikey, I just had the biggest panic attack in ages. Still hyperventilating now and shaking.

For some reason I texted my mother asking why they prevented me from going to college. Bad move, I know.

Few mins later I have my Dad on the phone. TLDR is they never would have stopped me > I'm wrong and mistaken > why is this an issue over 20 yrs later > they had to feed and clothe me and I should be grateful.

So yeh, they did prevent me, bear no responsibility and it's my fault.

Not sure why I expected different. Fuck, this panic attacks bad, brought back lots of raw emotion.

I have nothing to offer re panic attacks (sorry) but I hope you are feeling a bit better now? 💐

mylongawaitedlife just out of interest what were you hoping for when you got back in contact with them? I only ask because I used to be so desperate for a normal relationship with my mother that I minimised and ignored her abusive behaviour for years. The reality is that I'm better off without the relationship than being constantly made to feel like crap. I'm sorry that these are your parents and your DD doesn't have her fathers side. It probably sounds a bit cliche but do you have any close friends who could act as surrogate aunts, uncles, GPs? Shame you can't adopt a new family really, I'd have done it years ago.

steve I used to have panic attacks, they are horrible. Hope you're feeling better now.

I really need some advice. Haven't heard from my M for over 2 months. There's been no argument or anything, she just isn't interested in me or her grandchildren until she thinks there's some gossip. I'm quite happy not to contact her either but I'm a bit annoyed that she's not even pretended to care how my 3 month old is. Anyway , there is a family party in a few weeks that she might be at. I don't know how to act around her. I would like to tell her just to piss off and not bother me again but I don't want to cause an argument at someone else's party. Any suggestions? I'm thinking try and avoid her and just be polite if she talks to me.

Still hyperventilating ffs, can't calm down. Have given 111 a bell.

Pissed off at myself. Thought I'd be clever and try to get some answers, at least I know it's pointless asking about anything else, not worth the bullshit and subsequent crap.

When this attack is over, promise yourself that you'll never let this happen again. It's the only way to feel better - to have learned something from it that will help you going forward.
Never give them the opportunity to let you down again.

I hope this helps strengthen your resolve, rather than makes you feel worse but there it's merit in what Einstein said about the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result.

If this is any use for the penicillin attacks, what helps me calm down is to distract my brain with physical stimuli e.g. lavender spray or perfume, hot tea, a very engaging clip on YouTube. Basically anything that completely distracts you and doesn't give you space to go over it in your head.

Panic attacks not penicillin!

Thanks again (especially thanks for replying to me while struggling with stuff yourself Steve) couldn't reply straight away there as DD awake.. yes there is a history, though I constantly question myself over whether it was as bad as I'm describing to myself, why I'm the only one who hasn't moved on, and the same with more recent events - is it me, am I doing something to cause certain situations, are at least some of them my fault.

Some are not my fault and I'm clear on that. An example, my daughter was a few weeks old and I went as a passenger in DM and stepdad's car a few years ago to a family funeral, about 200 miles away. I didn't drive, just had DD's day bag. I didn't go to the actual funeral, due to DD being so young. Went to see another relative DM doesn't get on with too well. Was due to return at a specified time so we could return home. About 2 hours before that, received a message from DM to say I must return right now and if I didn't return within x time (barely enough time to drive to them from where I was) they would return home without me. Which would have left me stranded 200 miles from home with an almost newborn baby. Put me into a blind panic really. Relative I was with was quite shocked, drove me to where they were. Once there, I expected them to come right out and go home, whereas they seemed to be trying to force me to take my baby in to where they were (a pub). I refused and waited in the car park. Then there was another situation where a distant relative I had never met before came outside and took my baby out of my arms and made as if to take her away from me, inside. I quite pointedly held my arms back out and said give me my baby, and for a moment this lady actually hesitated (the relative who was with me confirmed this afterwards, it wasn't just my imagination, she was clearly deliberating in her head whether she could refuse but thought better of it). When she went back inside she was hurling abuse at me, saying I was just like so-and-so other family member. In the end it took the best part of an hour for DM and stepdad to come out of the pub and drive home, because stepdad had just ordered another drink and wanted to finish it, they ridiculed me for being p*ssed off at all this. On the drive home I suspected DM who was driving had been drinking, and stepdad certainly had - they were loudly talking, him at one point even trying to grab the steering wheel - all on the motorway. I was terrified with my newborn in the car - but felt powerless because I had no other way of getting home.

Sorry, have written loads there. It's just one example. They aren't 'cruel' in that abusive sense, they are more idiots. They are allowed to make demands but i'm not supposed to, or I'll always be wrong.

Growing up there is a whole other back story as DM only met this stepdad after I left home. DM didn't drink at all back then, so the alcohol fuelled stuff is far more recent. The back story is more about being provided for but not parented while growing up, about DM being the only one allowed to have emotions, and her sometimes attacking me - verbally, physically - but things all being my fault, every time. Not being allowed any boundaries. Like I say, I should be over all of that by now as I'm much older. But somehow I'm not, at all. If anything I feel more messed up with age. I'm alone and always have been and expect to be. DM never acknowledges how she was when I was growing up, talks about herself as self-sacrificing - which she was, but that doesn't change the other stuff she did.

Reading through this board and the posts I could almost have wrote a lot of them so can tell other people have had similar experiences even if not exactly the same.

Just wanted to pop in and say that denial is an incredibly strong and common emotion. Sadly, things likely are as you're realising. Will post more later!

I'm asking myself if I am setting my goal too high to hope to get over what happened, especially in my teens?
I have this theory that the bit of people that matures into an adult, respectful relationship with their parents is , for me, stunted at about age 13. DM still has the capacity to make me feel like she did then, but no one who knows me would guess unless they saw me after an attack. She does it effortlessly: she really makes quite an art form of knowing exactly how to attack me for maximum effect.
I know I lack confidence but I do my very best to hide it from the world and people are so caught up in their own lives that I don't think they really ever stop to question whether I'm faking it.

So maybe, rather than beating myself up about not being able to get over it, it would be better to just accept it and focus on not letting it ruin what's left of my life? In practice, that means cutting contact so that she can't hurt me and then forgetting about her by focusing on my life now rather than being haunted by memories of various times with DM (from c. 1980 until 2016)?
I can't repair the damage but I can take control of her access to me. (It's the vendor of living out of Easy traveling distance).

mylongawaitedlife

Its not you, its them. I would stay well away from the two of them, they were not good parents to you and will become rubbish grandparents to your DD if you at all let them in. As I wrote earlier it takes a village to raise a child. Your child also needs positive life affirming role models; not these two with an inordinate fondness for alcohol. It sounds like your stepdad drinks heavily anyway and your mother decided to join in. They see you primarily as their scapegoat for all their inherent ills and they will treat your DD not too dissimilarly either.

Tarbert

I would certainly cut all contact with your mother and let the future be your guide. You cannot change the past but you do not have to let that past define you as a person now.

I would also reiterate that it is NOT your fault your mother is like this, you did not make her this way.

You may find this how to go no contact helpful as well:-

outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/no-contact

Steve

Was sorry to read about your panic attack and hope you are now feeling better.

I think you need to think about why you made contact with your parents, it may have been because you are still wanting their approval or even wanting them to notice you. I would also concur with Tarbert's post of 18.57.

Well. I'm not sure why now. Perhaps my recent psychological assessment, which left things very raw, made me decide now was the best time. I chose the subject I did because the events of that block of time are indelibly etched on my mind. I know I'm right 110%. I shall not bother with anything else now. I have my answers.

Will be back to post tomorrow. Panics calmed down now but feeling grotty so going to put on a good audiobook and try to rest.

Thanks Attila. I can see that everything you post on here makes sense and is good advice, so accept that's probably the case for me too. I probably just want things to be different to the way they are and it has been that way since I was small. It's hope, that me and DD could have a happy healthy family.

We do have a few good friends, luckily, but I already feel guilty for what she doesn't have, and won't have. I'm sure someone is going to tell me to focus on what we do have.

Will read through the posts more as there is plenty of wisdom given out to others and maybe it's easier to take it in as truth when it's someone else's situation.

so just like the real world it appears that i'm invisible here as well

?? No need to be like that. I read your post. I'm sure others did too. Wasn't sure what to reply. I try only to reply if I have something useful to add.
Also, due to the nature of this thread, frankly we've all got our shit going on. Sometimes I feel up to posting, sometimes I don't.
And as it's an ongoing thread you do get conversations developing.
Take care.

I meant to reply earlier Stuck, then the proverbial hit the fan.

Each narc family has its own dynamic. Yes, it's totally possible for roles to change - in some situations over a long period, in others multiple swings weekly. It leads to very confused children, and research has shown this kind of dynamic can provoke SCUTS (Severe Complex Unpredictable Toxic Stress) - Donna Jackson Nazakawas excellent "Childhood Disrupted" book goes into detail.

I think all of us abused in childhood long and yearn for the childhood we should have had. This was at its strongest for me when my daughter was born and when both she and my stepson were growing up.

You've been incredibly strong going NC and maintaining it for four years. Breaking this would be a massive mistake.

Your counsellors comment is accurate. The fight or flight response built into us all has been expanded to fight, flight or freeze. I wouldn't be surprised if freeze is the dominant response.

Awaited

Did you parents control, or attempt to control, you during your childhood? Were you always the problem?

Your post smacks of exactly these things. And they are still doing it now. Would wash your hands of the pair of them.

I'm so glad to have found this thread. I have a lot to say here. For now, I'll just say how bloody brilliant you all are to share your stories and to reach out. X

Morning!

Christ it got busy over the weekend didn't it? I saw all the posts but we were out all weekend. You know you are overwhelmed with small kids when you drop your kids off at the soft play at Ikea and go and look at TV stands together and it feels like date night

stuck sorry we ignored you, sometimes the thread just kind of takes off like that. To answer your question yes you can definitely get landed with more than one shitty dysfunctional family role. I'm an only child so I got both scapegoat and golden child duties, depending on context and the whim of my crazy mother. You said also that you still suffer despite being NC - that's definitely true of me too, I think that's generally true, the abuse starts so early in life that you carry around all the effects even after the people are long gone. NC stops them from being able to abuse you any more but on its own it doesn't bring about recovery...
... which means, usually, counselling. I can only sympathise. I am not having much luck with counsellors either. I don't live in the UK any more but I really sympathise with you re. the NHS. There are (I'm sure) a ton of great people working in the NHS, and I know that extreme stress can turn nice people into awful people, but the NHS IME does seem to have more than its fair share of people who can't be arsed with patients or who get off on having the power to bugger up other people's lives.

tarbert, you're asking whether you can ever get over the abuse - you mean get over it in the sense of forgiving your parents and having a good relationship with them? I think the first question you need to ask is whether there's any sign that they would be able for that. Are they still messing with your head? If you confront them with what they did, are they sorry? (Or do you get one of those "sorry you are so sensitive that all our best efforts to be decent parents appear to have turned you against us" sort of apologies? If it's like that, I think you have to accept that recovering yourself and having a better relationship with your parents are goals that are going to progress at different speeds, at the very least, and while I wouldn't go so far as to say definitely go NC, there's nothing wrong with considering whether NC or a period of NC or lower contact might help you in your recovery.

tarbet, steve, the cold bedroom thing! It's a thing! My bedroom was so cold in winter you could see your breath. I still went in there. I remember when I was 14, my dad (who was OK, you know, he tried a bit) got a massive old office desk out of his work where they were replacing the office furniture, and he got one of his mates with a van to deliver it round to our house while he was working some weekend overtime. I was so happy with it. This was the first time I was going to be able to do my homework in my own room. When it came it was so big we just had to pile it up in the hall, like it took up the entire hall. And then I was trying to get to the toilet and I jumped over it and caught my foot on the veneer and it came away a little bit at the edge, right bear in mind this is an ancient battered office desk, it was covered in scratches and pits and stuff, and the bit I'd pulled away was easy enough to stick back in place with a bit of glue, but my mother went absolutely batshit crazy and was like "right that's it, if you're not going to treat it with respect we'll throw it out" and all this shite. But it was too big to throw out . She tried a couple of other times to fuck up my exams (she invited my boyfriend to stay during my exams, then created a drama with him, chucked him out the house, and told me I had to dump him or she'd throw me out - still during my exams) but during all that I'd started studying in the local library instead of the house and then I never needed to spend any time alone with her and I ended up getting a very good degree. I really hope that that escape route is still possible for kids now, it seems to be getting harder and harder.

Sleepy on the family party, I'd say be polite if you see your mother and grey rock the hell out of her. Stay in the main room so she can't corner you.

longawaited I just wanted to say that it feels like, reading your posts, you sort of feel as if you should want a night off without actually being sure that you do want it. You might relate to this, how I felt: I had twins and HVs would ask me "is your mum coming down, do you have any help" and I'd feel like I was being a bit of a fraud either about the difficulty of twins or about the depth of abuse from my mother. I'd end up answering weakly "my mother and I don't really get on" and I used to feel like they were going away thinking "twins can't be that hard if you won't even put up with your mother's foibles for a couple of days". It was only after that I realised you know, that's not it. Looking after twins alone is really hard. Dealing with your abusive parent is hard. I wasn't awkward/making a fuss about nothing for not wanting to accept my mother's "help" I was doing my best to stay strong and keep an abuser out of my children's life. People assume that if you turn down your parents' help you must not need help, but if you can't trust your parents, it's not like that.
I've used Sitters in the past, I think it was £6.50 an hour. It was DH's idea, I always feel like it's a bit of a waste of money - it's really easy looking after my kids when they're asleep, it's not really a break if I'd have been sat having dinner and watching TV anyway!

mylongawaitedlife - your daughter will have a loving environment because she has you.

She will also have any number of other loving people around her in her life - having the same DNA as them is really not the issue.

She will be much better off without people who are not only toxic to you (what upsets you upsets her), but are virtually certain to be toxic to her as well.