"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I've always apologised to them, even when I've felt too headstrong to do it and I've had to force myself.

I also struggle to tell them I love them, which is horrible. I've no idea why, it almost feels like I'm embarrassed to say it to them

Hi all, I just wondered if anyone would be kind enough to offer some advice please? After a lifetime of FOG and some pretty epic arguments recently, DP and I no longer feel we can have his parents in our lives. We really have tried everything to patch things up but they have taken things too far. IRL, everyone we know agrees that not seeing them will make our lives happier, although a few of their family (the ones they aren't estranged from already that is) are disappointed. Unfortunately we live in the same town and moving isn't an option. We have looked into that.
My questions are: firstly, has anyone gone NC with someone living this close? It's not a tiny town but inevitable we will bump into each other at some point. How does that work? Secondly, I feel like I don't want them to be kept up to date with our lives via other family members, and vice versa, and I don't know if that's reasonable? Maybe they won't want to know anyway. And maybe family members would feel awkward updating them anyway? But part of me feels they might try to keep us involved in each others lives I.e "DC is saying lots of words now and ILikeBigBooks and DH have painted their kitchen blue and booked a holiday to Majorca." I feel like I don't want them knowing things we are doing when we don't want them to. Is that silly? Normal? Even possible? I also hate the impact this will have on the wider family and want it to be as stress free as possible for them, but for them to understand that reconciliation isn't on the cards and that we more or less just want to pretend they don't exist, rather than have monthly updates so that we can't "get away from them". I hate myself for saying that! Any thoughts?

ILikeBigBooksAndICannotLie
Assuming there are people in your town who you do not know and would pass in the street without a nod of acknowledgement, then you should be able to go NC with your PILs.
The bit that is hardest to deal with is around the people you have in common. Personally, I think its going a bit far for them to have to self-censure themselves from mentioning that they like the shade of blue you've painted your kitchen. It means that they have to keep your bad relationship uppermost in their minds.
I think you ought not to make them choose between you, but just show no interest in any news they bring about your PILs. If you have big news, and you want to keep it private, then ask them not to tell your PILS (although if your PILS are dedicated enough, then they will come to hear it).
TBH I understand exactly how you feel, but when you haven't had to speak to them for a few months, it does get a lot easier not to think about them, recovering from the latest onslaught or faring where the next will come from, and that is why life improves.
So, if I were you, I'd take a light touch to involving the people in common.

That's my pennyworth, but, as my next post will show I'm only a novice at this too.

Hi BigBooks,

It is par for the course that a few of your partner's family are "disappointed". They are disappointed because you are no longer a part of the overall dysfunction. These flying monkeys are acting in their sole interests and certainly not in yours; such people are easily manipulated into doing the toxic parent's bidding for them.

I would read this link as it explains more:-

spouseofanaconanon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/how-to-deal-with-flying-monkeys.html

Re your comment:-
I also hate the impact this will have on the wider family and want it to be as stress free as possible for them, but for them to understand that reconciliation isn't on the cards and that we more or less just want to pretend they don't exist, rather than have monthly updates so that we can't "get away from them". I hate myself for saying that! Any thoughts"

This also makes me think you are still in FOG with regards to them. Flying monkeys are really best ignored; they do not want to listen to what you have to say. If they do not listen it is best to be in no contact with them either. I would also remove yourselves from all forms of social media particularly sites like FB. If cutting them out or keeping contact to a minimum is best- don't feel guilty for doing so. You're simply giving yourself the freedom to be YOU that should have been yours in the first place.

I did three things yesterday:

1. I asked DM to leave me alone. I made it clear I won't take her calls and I will only call her when I am good and ready, but as I have other priorities, that will take a long time. I also made it clear that when I do call, it will be to discuss how she has behaved towards me.

1. I made a bulleted list of the abuse she's personally done to me. Big headings were "physical" and "emotional", sub headings were things like "Controlling", "No Respect", "Blaming","Boundaries" and there was a special category called "Outrageous Behaviour". Then I listed examples in each, none of which she has ever acknowledged were even less than acceptable, but all of which are enough individually to kill off an otherwise healthy relationship.

3, I idly googled wiki's definition of narcissistic parent and got a shock as it describes DM almost perfectly.

All 3 felt cathartic.

Hi Tarbert

Re your comment:-

"1. I asked DM to leave me alone. I made it clear I won't take her calls and I will only call her when I am good and ready, but as I have other priorities, that will take a long time. I also made it clear that when I do call, it will be to discuss how she has behaved towards me".

First sentence good but she will likely ignore your request and contact you either herself or via a flying monkey. Do not forget that narcissists cannot accept boundaries or at least think that these apply to them. Second sentence also good but I would never contact her directly again. Third sentence do not do this under any circumstances, she won't get it at all and you could well come off far worse emotionally from such a confrontation. Her own narcissistic rage could then come to the fore big time. Toxic people like your mother like nothing more than a fight and the last word; do not give her either.

Your point 2 is a good list to remind you of her behaviours if you start to wobble re going low or no contact with her. Toxic people as well never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

You don't mention presents or birthday cards for you and or your family unit; what will you do with those if received from her?

It is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist. Its also not your fault she is like this; her own family of origin did that lot of damage to her.

I would also suggest you read "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown as well as the websites entitled Out of the FOG and Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers.

Eh marmite, my mother used to say "I love you" the whole time, it means nothing. I think showing them is way more important than telling them.

bigbooks I know there are at least a couple of people on the thread - @snortgruntfart and @665theneighbourofthebeast - other people too.

Regarding the sharing of info, I think it'll be hard to control it 100%, but I can see why you would want to. Are you concerned that there are people who'll act as her flying monkeys, sharing information with her and trying to get you back in contact? With well-meaning family members, I imagine that if you just stop them if they start to talk about your PILs, they'll start to understand that the estrangement is permanent.

One last thing guys - I've started a blog! I wanted somewhere where I could expand on stuff that I've been writing about here about CPTSD and recovery and how it all works. I'd love it if any of you guys fancy reading or commenting.

AttilaTheMeerkat - thanks for reading and giving such a detailed reply.
I've been having a lot of flying monkey activity in the last few weeks, particularly the last few days. These are my siblings and I love them. They've all been victims too and I don't want to make their lives any harder.

I added a line to the message yesterday asking DM not to involve them or put them in the middle. I know she'll ignore it, but it means that I can refuse to receive the messages she sends via them, so they have a choice the next time to refuse to accept the job. Either way, I won't be engaging.

I am lucky to live too far away for her car to just pull up in front of the house. The only way of getting in touch is by phone, electronic message or letter. If the message says "Happy Birthday", I'll reply "thank you.". If it says anything else, I'll ignore and I won't be answering the phone.

I'm trying not to dwell on what DM is doing now, but it does give me some pleasure to imagine the shock she must feel to have had the control, that she has so badly abused, taken away from her.

I'm not the first person to have done this. DB did it over 10 years ago. He held out for 6 months until flying monkeys (myself included) talked him back in. I know he has spent a lot of the last 10 years wishing that he'd held his ground, as DM has only modified her behaviour in a tiny way and only on the one thing that was the last straw for him that time.

I know she'll never discuss the things she has done to me and she'll never apologise (except in a way to make everyone feel sorry for her - so it would be about control, not really about the apology at all). I said it because I know if anything will make her fear talking to me, it would be having to have that conversation. She was planning to just have everything go back to normal without ever having to address her shortcomings.

It will never go back to normal. I am taking an extended break. I'm not ready to say its forever, but unless I can think of a way to have a non-hurtful relationship with her, then it will be forever.

I don't want to cut my children off from the DG, and I don't know what to do about that. I guess its their choice. She's never been very involved in their lives though, so I don't think they'll notice. I'll need to think about this one a bit as I don't want to let them be turned into flying monkeys but I don't want to try to control them the way she controlled me.

Thanks everyone. By total coincidence I happened to get a call today from the (very lovely) family members who I know are disappointed. They weren't ringing about that directly but they brought it up and did say "there's no coming back from that" (meaning the chain of events and the act that made us feel we have to go NC). So at least they are supportive of that decision and presumably won't try and patch it up. Previously they were happy that we were going LC rather than NC but even though it obviously saddens them, they said themselves that it is no longer an option!

ILikeBigBooksAndICannotLie I said the same to my brother 10 years ago when I heard what DM had done. Even DM, when telling me, had to admit that she'd "gone too far".

Six months later, and, having had to listen to DM going on and on about it for months on end, analysing everything, scanning everything I said for hints about DB, I caved and just wanted DB to sort it out. So, I pressured him into just giving her a chance to apologise, which is what she claimed to most want. When she got her toe in the door, she pushed her foot though, then her whole body. Then she slammed the door behind her, took the key out of the lock and went back to her old ways over the next couple of years.

"I've been having a lot of flying monkey activity in the last few weeks, particularly the last few days. These are my siblings and I love them. They've all been victims too and I don't want to make their lives any harder".

They are your siblings but unlike you now they want to stay and continue to play their roles in your family of origin's dysfunction. Your mother is at the heart of all this and these people are still being actively manipulated by your mother to serve her and her self interest. The flying monkeys are only in it for their own selves. You backing away from the Mob Family may make their own lives "harder" for them but its really not your problem now. Self preservation here is necessary.

Another point I want to pick up on here is your children, why do you not want to cut them off from the DG. These people were not good parents to you as children and they are toxic to you all as adults now. You are the parents here and they are relying on your own good judgment; your mother will emotionally harm your children in not too dissimilar ways to how you were (and remain harmed). Where adult children of narcissists fall down here is the failure to recognize the adaptability of the narcissist to changing circumstances. I urge you most strongly to keep her and her associated flying monkeys well away from you all from now on.

This is a good resource:-

narcissists-suck.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/narcissist-grandparents.html

"I'm not ready to say its forever, but unless I can think of a way to have a non-hurtful relationship with her, then it will be forever".

It will likely be forever because she will not be able to conduct anywhere near an emotionally healthy relationship with you. Low contact as well often leads to no contact because the narcissist often disregards the boundaries made.

wrt to my children, tbh I don't think they will start to contact her independently anyway. I think DM/ DC's future relationship is just a theoretical point.
But I read that this abuse can be inter-generational. DM abuses me because she was abused. I am unbelievably keen not to abuse my own DC just because its all I know. So, I am trying hard to protect them but let them feel empowered to make their own decisions.

My siblings are really important to me. How can I stay in contact with them? I think this will be the pinch point based on what has happened this last week and my own flying monkey behaviour when DB was trying to escape. I am really reluctant to think about cutting myself off from my siblings. is there another way?

my DC are already in their teens. DM's chance to form a meaningful bond with them has come and gone and she has done almost nothing. So, they aren't under her influence and I don't think they would mind if they wake up in three years time and realise they haven't seen their DG for a very, very long time.

@toomuchtooold aye I know, and I hope my actions do show them I love them. But I just meant that i do find apologising and telling them I love them really hard but I force myself to do so as I feel they're both important things to voice, particularly apologising

And I shall indeed check out your blog

Hi Tarbert,

re your comments in quote marks:-
"wrt to my children, tbh I don't think they will start to contact her independently anyway. I think DM/ DC's future relationship is just a theoretical point.
But I read that this abuse can be inter-generational. DM abuses me because she was abused. I am unbelievably keen not to abuse my own DC just because its all I know. So, I am trying hard to protect them but let them feel empowered to make their own decisions".

Am glad to read that her influence over your children has been minimal; narcissists tend to either over value or under value the relationship they have with the grandchildren. My late FIL was a narcissist also and he undervalued. You are doing great in protecting them; your family of origin are not the Mob Family and they are not binding.

"My siblings are really important to me. How can I stay in contact with them? I think this will be the pinch point based on what has happened this last week and my own flying monkey behaviour when DB was trying to escape. I am really reluctant to think about cutting myself off from my siblings. is there another way?"

Re your first sentence are you important enough to them?. I have a feeling that future contact with them will be problematic because one or all of them could well side with your mother and take her side. This is also because they do not want their mother's rage, become a target for her rage or rock the boat. They've already shown signs of doing that and look too as to how your brother was treated previously. He got dragged back in. You cannot afford to make that mistake because you will certainly pay.

Living life after being enmeshed with N's is really all about reclaiming the sanity, comfort and peace of mind that should have been yours all along had the N's been a healthy family.

I didn't realise that about how narc mothers behave when grandchildren arrive. TBH DM showed very little interest in my DC until a couple of years ago.
As crazy as it sounds, I think she was jealous of the attention I gave them. When they were babies/ toddlers and she'd call demanding that with no notice I give her my undivided attention for at least an hour whilst she describes something inanely boring - a blow by blow account of her latest argument with someone or the difficulties of parking, for example. She really struggled with me standing up to her and saying that I was in the middle of getting the baby to sleep or doing something with the toddler.

So, she'd go off in a huff and eventually she decided that "you all are putting your child's needs first".

I've just remembered something: she visited once when DS was about 2. She kept leaving a very sharp knife at the edge of the worktop where he could reach up and get it (and he was very curious). I asked her to leave it out of his reach but she did it again a few hours later. So, this time I made it clear that it was unacceptable and she really sulked, huffed and made sarky remarks about "this new fad for child-proofed houses". The stair gates annoyed her too. As did not always being able to watch what she wanted at the moment she wanted on the TV.

i'd forgotten all that. Its just normal to me now that she doesn't have much to do with my DC and she doesn't feature in their lives.

My mother would do that on the phone too. I remember politely trying to get off the phone while one of the kids was screaming blue murder and she'd be like oh yes, just one more thing... and then talk for another half hour. I started just hanging up and blaming it on the phone battery in the end.
I never figured out a way to politely enforce a boundary with her. She'd ignore all polite requests and then take the hump as soon as I was the slightest bit assertive. Exhausting.

With the knife thing that just sounds so familiar. I think they do it when they feel like an argument and they want to provoke you into getting angry and then claim it was an honest mistake. Tons of stuff used to get dangerously broken and left for us to find when my mother came to visit. I never gave her the satisfaction of an argument but that just means I was letting her come into my house and break stuff with impunity. I don't know why I put up with it for so long.

The knife thing, yep that resonates. So many times now looking back that other things were more important than DC safety.
Also on the surface very very moral but actually some fairly underhand behaviour (Think hiding a eulogy at a funeral so that you can 'save the day' by rushing home to print another - I shit you not).

Feeling a bit fucked up this week. It's my birthday and I'm praying NOT to hear from them. THEY have behaved appallingly but I still regret the situation

fc301 I understand how you feel.

The only way to really stop the abuse is to get it out of our heads and to live our lives without being mindful that there is a hole where your parent or family should be. I guess that's the Holy Grail. If people do manage to move on though, such that the wound heals over and they enjoy their life properly, then would they still post about it in Stately Homes?

At the moment, I feel liberated because the abuse has only just stopped. The last thing DM did is still vivid in my mind so I wake up thinking about how I don't have to put up with it any more (and that's a huge relief), but really it will only be completely gone when months go by when the memories have all been boxed up and are gathering dust.

That old saying of "living well is the best revenge" has a lot of truth in it. I suspect that I will always carry these scars around with me, but I'd like to put it all behind me.

Right now, I keep thinking that DM doesn't even know what the real problem is. She probably thinks its how she behaved for 10 minutes, or maybe a few days. What she doesn't realise is that its how she behaved for a lifetime.

I spent a week with her alone because she needed help. I thought what I was giving was one week, that would probably be quite boring but would pass and then I could go home. I thought I was going to look after DM for a week and would probably be bored listening to her telling me stories that I'd already heard a million times (most of them are about how she's been wronged).
So, I wasn't expecting to have fun, but instead she spent a week reminding me of exactly how I felt when I was a teenager. She was bitter, impossible to please, demanding, completely ungrateful and very, very controlling.
With 24 hours, I was becoming tearful in private. By the end, I felt worthless and broken. In between, I had plenty of time to contemplate how its unbelievable that I actually survived my childhood and teenage years at all.

Thanks Tarbert I appreciate that 💐
I understand too. I spend a lot of time thinking about it but I try to stop myself because going round and round with it is a version of hoping for a better response - which is futile. I always imagine how I can justify it to others but it's impossible to put into words how their snide underhandedness makes you feel like utter shit (& its deliberate, they know what their doing).
Ultimately I reached a point where rightly or wrongly I couldn't continue. Crying in the bath in your own home at 43 because of the way you've been treated is just not normal- so I can really empathise with your comments above.
She will never understand what you are saying. I tried for over a year to describe my feelings to my parents. My DM just doesn't get it. My DF is STILL angry at ME!!

@tarbert I felt compelled to answer after your knife story. my DS has a nut allergy meaning he has to carry an epipen, as a small boy my DM would deliberately leave the medication at home saying I was overprotective, making a fuss. She would let go of DS and Dd hands in carparks, crossing roads and it was me who was fussing being overprotective.

A lot of what you say about your DM resonates with me, can I ask how old she is? mine is 77, myself and my two DSis have extremely low, controlled contact. We give no information or opinions to her, it drives her mad as she has no info to twist and use against us. If given info it is twisted and she uses it as a weapon to kick at your sensitive area if you know what I mean.

she went raking in my house years ago and blatantly after finding a letter raised with me the fact dd was dyslexic. Never knocked on bedroom door still will if opportunity will barge in, I still change cowered in wardrobe.

The biggest thing wrong we can do is be fat! she enjoys giving me either sz8 or 16, I'm a 12.

it's so lovely to hear from kindred spirits that too have an exceptionally difficult mother. I get support from my sisters but sorely feel the gap of not having a supportive mother and my self esteem is awful. I don't know if she is jealous of us daughters or hates us she constantly puts us down and rips every part of us to tatters. we've given up trying to work her out and try just to protect ourselves.

tarbert I hope you get a good break from your mum, you sound at the end of your tether mentally. she does not deserve one ounce of your thoughts or consideration. imagine how much better you'd feel without her bile in your life xxxx