"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I have had CBT which gave me some good techniques, my core beliefs about myself are all negative as I imagine most of us feel. When down or stressed I feel I am a bad and unloveable, undeserving person. It's awful the damage a toxic mother causes. I lack resilience and have had bouts of depression, I catastrophise things and have very black and white thinking all as a result of my upbringing I think.

so in a convoluted way I agree we get through it and can find a peace of sorts it we bear deep scars which are easily opened and I think we suffer a great deal of mental anguish as opposed to someone with a healthy upbringing.

I feel I have to keep my boundaries high, my shutters tightly closed as if she glimpses a weakness she will pounce on it.

eg I've just been retired mid forties due to a neurological problem so I am on heavy duty meds. All she could say was that I had put on weight.

sorry once I start it all comes spewing out

xxx

@Coconut70 it sounds like we do have a lot in common.

My mother is 73, so maybe there is a element of them both being of their era.

I used to think, when I was young, that the things that happened behind closed doors in our home happened in every home. So, I never thought to tell for fear of not being believed, but rather because I thought people might think that I was making a fuss about nothing. I'm not sure how common all the hitting etc was, but I do know that most people I knew in my 20s didn't expect to be hit by their parents. So, I know that that at least was exceptional.

I understand why you look to your DM for a response when something happens, but she's the worst person to ask! I'm guilty of this too. If I get the standard you're exaggerating / its your fault / so what? responses, then i'm hurt. But perversely, if she does react with concern the way you think a mother would, then I'm reduced to tears and go away wondering why she is the way she is when she is capable of doing better. So, its lose-lose.

I am 50. I've tried everything I can think of and I've reached a point where the only thing left is damage limitation: don't let her hurt me any more. I really hope I can stay strong and not go back to her.

I've just reread and realised that I'm not making myself clear. When I was a child, I thought all children in all families were hit. I didn't know how often, but I believed that it was common.
When I was in my teens, i mentioned to friends that my parents kept something to hit us with and it hurt most when my dad hit me with it. They were shocked, and that was the first moment that I realised that hitting wasn't an routine as having a bath.
Then in my 20s, with my mum still hitting me sometimes - when i came home to visit - I knew it was not normal, but I didn't know how to make her stop. If she used her hand, she used to complain afterwards that her hand hurt, which i also thought was a bit rich!
Finally, I stood up to her in my early 30s and, even though I didn't say a word or lay a finger on her, she hasn't hit me since, although there have been a couple of times that I saw the familiar look on her face that tells me she'd like to. Once, I've had to warn her that if she tries it, I WILL hit her back.

That's the physical abuse, but its the emotional abuse that has carried on.

@tarbert thankyou for replying it is really helpful to speak to women who get it and I don't have to feign a decent relationship with my mother.

Yes mum 77 and I'm 45 I'm the youngest of three girls and I was so difficult in every way that they never had a fourth baby!

You poor thing being hit by both parents, was it mainly your mum if you don't mind me asking she sounds vile. My hitting wasn't routine normally if mum lost it she hit me, I remember being bounced across the room by my hair age 12.

were you all ie siblings and yourself abused to the same extent. it is just hideous that they had a "thing" to hit with, just awful what a way to treat your children.

awful that she hit you into adulthood that's appalling, have you ever managed to challenge her about it or would she just fly off, terrible lack of control I was going to say but realised it was wrong because I imagine she managed not to hit shopkeepers, teachers etc.

It is my DM tongue that is her weapon, now with age I have zero tolerance for any nasty put downs or games. I try hard not to rise to give her any reaction but her awful passive aggression gets me. I have to steel myself to have any interaction with her.

Are you physically near your M? we purposely moved 4.5 hrs away to a remote part of Scotland. Are you Scotland too with your username?

I suffered systematic csa from paternal GDAD as did my eldest sister, my first memories are of abuse. my mother worked with kids and I remember at night age 5 I used to pee on the carpet, blocked out why I couldn't use wc. Gparents stayed 2 weeks in holidays etc. She lost it shouting at me that I was an animal and behaving like an animal. Surely the 1970's isn't enough of an excuse to not see that is abnormal behaviour.

xxxxx

Hi

Help me !

I'm meant to be NC but I answered a text and now I'm confused and worried I am over analysing.

My children were visiting my parents as a semi NC before Christmas and before many people on here opened my eyes to the fact that it isn't just me being hurt by my mother.
My sister and I fell out as we have been golden child and skapegoated for years. As a result my children no longer see them and this is a decision I made for good reason.
My mother and I had a full confrontational argument that led to me going NC without knowing anything about the whole narcissism thing. Anyway to begin with as my children have limited contact with their father and no other extended family, I felt bad and l them visit at Christmas, with the explicit instructions not to have my sister visit at the same time and therefore making it awkward. Mum ignored this and so I have no gone NC kids and all.

So nothing since Christmas, then a text out of nowhere asking to have the children at easter. From my Dad (Although I am pretty sure its my mum using my dads phone as the language and wordi g are not like him)

I went and answered and I know it was stupid. I just forgot I guess. I just said , "No more visits" to which I got a reply that "it was not fair to cut off the children from all of their family"
I replied " A parent has to ensure that their children are not put into environments that make them feel awkward and around those who will do the same" and that was it...

Until just now. I just got a text asking for the children's full names .. For his will (from dads number)

Now it could be a coincidence that he is changing his will at the same time as he (she) has been turned down contact.

Or it could be basically saying that I'm out of the will, tbh I could not care less.
AIBU to think this is what that was meant to say.

Its also my birthday next week, which has not been mentioned and I am quite sensitive about birthdays as they were not really celebrated when I was younger or mine was rushed as my sisters is a week later. Its was used by mum to stir up animosity between the two of us and it worked!!

So... Thoughts???

And on how I quit thinking and obsessing over it.

The mistake you made here was in answering the initial text from your dad. A response from you is what was wanted and unfortunately this has now opened the door to further unwanted intrusions like this further message.

Ignore this further text and start to block all your family of origin's numbers from your phone. Do not give them any means of contacting you directly. Do not respond to this text, you will regret it hugely if you do. Money, wills and threats of disinheritance are often used by dysfunctional family members to bring the scapegoat and their associated children back into line in ways not too dissimilar to what is happening now.

Work further on your own FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) and read the OutoftheFog website as well as the one entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers.

Do not give them any further ammo re your birthday; they know how you feel about that and do not care. Celebrate your birthday the way you want to and with your own family unit. Your family of origin have shown you who they really are and they simply cannot be at all relied upon. Your dad is really your mother's hatchet man here sent into do her bidding; he is also her enabler as well as weak and needs someone like your mother to idolise. He also failed to protect you from your mother's excesses of behaviour and thus also failed you as your father.

You will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

What Attila said.
Try not to be tempted to respond and PLEASE do not feel obligated to clarify to him what his own GC NAMES ARE!!!...WTF!

I know , right

@OopsDearyMe just to add to what others have said, but because I know I'd want to understand what to take from the GC names text, I think s/he meant:
They are still our GC. They still belong to us. You might be able to stop us seeing them but you can't stop us giving them our money when we die.

Then the subtext is: we're thinking about what to do with our estate when we die. Will we give you your fair share, or won't we? That's for us to know and you to find out, but in the meantime we hope you fret about it.

DM (a widow) has a bit of a inheritance obsession too, but hers is more like:" Should I continually treat myself until there's nothing left or should I preserve the capital so that you all can inherit something?? What do you think? X thinks this, my friend Y thinks that. So what do you think??? Why don't we just talk in circles about this for hours?"

@Coconut70
Mostly DM hit us, and it was all of us, not just me. It was done in proportion to how much we displeased her, so the DC she likes better were hit less and me and DB took the brunt of it. DF hit us all too, and when he hit, it caused a lot more physical pain, but after talking to DB, it seems like DF focused on him and hit the girls less.

DF has been dead a long time though.

I'm not in Scotland. I just chose a random place to make my username less google-able.

I live at the opposite end of the country from DM. The choice of where to live wasn't so much about getting physically away from her as I was in my 20s at the time. Back then, it was enough not to be living under the same roof as her. However, now she's retired and is getting older, I think I would be looking to put serious distance between us, if it wasn't already there.

DM is really 3 people rolled into one. There's the normal person who is really quite caring and nice, there's the victim of abuse who is a bit selfish but really vulnerable and you want to protect and then there's the nasty, spiteful, controlling, moany, superior bigot which is the one I need to cut myself off from. The problem is the nasty person is to the fore too often and the nice person never admits that the nasty person has behaved badly (so they're not that nice).

I would say that you never know which one you are going to get, but, often you can see what's coming. If DM is in a bad mood then you get the nasty one, and unfortunately she's in a bad mood more often than she's not with me (and with DB).

I just don't feel I can carry on with her any more unless she keeps her nasty side away from me, and observes strict boundaries. But DM has never paid any attention to other people's boundaries (although funnily enough i'd hate to think how she'd take it if I was to cross one of her's and maybe take a peek at a bank statement or something!)

A friend asked me for help yesterday. Her DM has been taken into hospital with Alzehimers. It came on suddenly an the friend was crying saying "I feel like I've suddenly lost my mum".

I was able to offer practical help, and I tried to offer emotional support too, but I was a bit dumbfounded. I was thinking that I've just lost my mum too, but its more that I've given up than that a good person in my life has suddenly disappeared. I felt like I was staring blankly at her as I tried to understand what she must be feeling to lose a parent who has been a force for good all your life?

And of course now there is more.

Now I am upset, I got e text from my brother, again though not written in language he uses. This one asked what I wanted for my birthday and in the next paragraph, it asked again for the children's full names and tried to say that my fathers is having a problems sending and receiving messages.

I am not sure what to do, I am not NC with my brother but know he is being used or his phone may be.

She's fucking using my brother and I am so angry. I want to so badly have a massive row with her and tell her to fucking stop. I know this is not going to get any where and its what she wants so I'm not going to do it.
How do I respond or do I not.

I did answer about my birthday and send I was not really bothering with it this year. (Not true) he (She) said she would 'pop' a card in the post, pop is not a word my very manly blokey brother uses.

I've ignored the requests about the kids names. What fucks me off and I don't know if she is aware, but its a really crappy time to start this shit as I am in court with my ex husband over contact and have problems with my daughter who has ASD not attending school.

Your mother is using your brother as a "flying monkey" and she is certainly using his phone to contact you. Such tactics are typically used by narcissists to attempt to regain control of the scapegoat (in this case you). This number of his now needs to be blocked as well. Ultimately you may well have to be no contact with him also.

Do not engage with this at all; what your mother wants is a response, that to such people is the reward.

Wow, I'm behind on this thread.

Oh Jannerite, I just read your first post and just kept nodding as I read more. I can relate so much to what you wrote. The constant put downs, from childhood through adulthood, the degradation and erosion of your self-esteem, the bullshit "everything's your fault". You were never to blame for any of it, these people were supposed to love you, nurture you and protect you. You're being gaslighted, in essence to make themselves feel better and to give them an easy target.

None of it was your fault, none of it. You definitely should be here. Dysfunctional families exist in a myriad of shapes, sizes and forms. I hope that you can find some solace in these pages and begin to heal.

To emotionally abuse a quiet, peasant kid, but then to take great care that she always looks "immaculate" - my mother's word - it was a kind of abuse I don't think people could get their heads round. Alcoholics who hit their kids and let them go to school with dirty clothes on and no breakfast, that you could understand, you know?

Oh absolutely. My parents made sure I was dressed immaculately for school and always punctual. At parents evening they'd gloat and crow over other parents how I was doing this, this and this. The nightmare of home life never dared rear its ugly head. The multiple threats, the bursts of violent temper ensured my silence. Effective enough to make me maintain my silence until mid-late thirties. It's incredible the effect persecution of a child carries, both in level and duration.

I'm really sorry for my multiple posts!

Jannerite I always have this nagging doubt that nobody will care or want to know what I have to say. I constantly second guess myself, and will spend ages reading/thinking something over before I post/say it. I just don't think anybody will really care enough.^

I feel like that too - like on here I often think everyone's looking at my posts and going "why the hell is she sticking her oar in again". It is a symptom of our shitty childhoods. We care, for what it's worth.^

Raises hand. I haven't posted replies to many topics thus far, my inner self-critic referring me to my childhood days, but it's our collective experiences and knowledge that makes this thread the wonderful and supportive haven it is.

oopsdearyme best not to share with your DP the personal stuff you are currently going through. It will be turned and used against you.

I've finally felt strong enough to start therapy, two sessions in and I ended up spending a lot of time talking about my mother and siblings this week. The counsellor was in agreement that I come from a family where my mother sounds like a narc, my older bother the golden child, I was the scapegoat and my younger sister was complicit with my mother in her abuse of me. I spoke about how every time I tried to speak out about the abuse people told me I was a selfish spoilt child as I didn't realise how lucky I was coming from a large house in a nice part of London with a SAHM and private school. My counsellor helped me to verbalise how that dismissal made me feel, I was unaware before of the effect it had had

I'm tentatively stepping in to say hi. I don't know how much I have to offer though. I'm very, very broken

Hi Kate,

Sounds like you're starting on the long, slow path to recovery. Just be kind to yourself through the process - explaining such deep rooted feelings can cause massive bursts of emotion - anger, sadness, frustration, pain.

I'm saddened and aghast that each time you were brave enough to speak out about your abuse you were labelled selfish and spoilt. I'm so sorry. I also experienced the quintessential narc mother, golden child sibling and being scapegoated. I wasn't ever brave enough to speak out - the years of abuse ensuring my silence until recently. Of course narcs never change and my mothers attack continues to this day, in my late 30s. I'm bloody annoyed for you that you spoke out and weren't believed.

You've been through so much. Good luck through therapy.

*Katie not Kate. Wish I could change font size on app...

Thanks Steve

October this year marks the ten year anniversary of the last time I ever had anything to do with my parents, my father was no loss but when I cut ties with my mother it was like something died inside of me but at the same time I realised the black cloud that had hung over me for as long as I could remember also went away

I was eventually put into care when I was in my mid teens, but only as they deemed it as being a relationship breakdown, nothing more. I had to return home after a year, my mother was her most charming, deceitful self in front of the social workers who were supposed to be monitoring my re-integration but the abuse ramped up as she was so angry with SS having been involved. I left home as soon as I could and have been an under achiever with a string of broken relationships ever since

So it was my birthday yesterday. It's been playing in my mind and I was hoping to get through it with NC. Nice vase of tulips delivered "lots of love Mum & Dad xx".
It hurt me (ruined my birthday). I gave them to my friend. DH was supportive. I feel (again) like the most ungrateful unreasonable stubborn cow. Hard to explain this to anyone in RL.
They ignore NC when it suits them. Nothing at Xmas (cards for DC and she actively avoided writing my name anywhere in it). Apart from manipulative emails I've had no contact with my Dad for 14 months. In no way have they been able to demonstrate love, concern, respect, care for me.
But I will be the bad guy now.
This is all because she has a big birthday on Nau and so the pressure (which began last May!) will ramp up so that we rock up with the Grandchildren in front of all their friends. (We will not be doing that).
Feel insane again!

*in May