"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I am so sorry your birthday was ruined fc301

Could you maybe have a 'Queen's' birthday? Where you celebrate your birthday properly on another day where you're not going to receive anything off your parents and they can't ruin your day again? Maybe pencil next Saturday in as birthday no2, when you can have another birthday with th day being just as you want it to be?

I do that with my kids if they're actual birthdays haven't gone to plan for whatever reason

Haha thanks Katie I quite like the sounds of a Queens birthday!
& thanks for not flaming me x

The flowers thing is quite nice but the trouble is the last few text etc from her I'm pretty sure have been secret as he's still angry with me (for defending myself).
What I need her to do is stand up to him, tell him he's been a shit & he needs to put it right.
This will be happening definitely on the 12th of Never.

I've been reading bits of these threads for years, on and off. A couple of times, under other usernames, I've posted details about something that had just happened and would be advised to go over to stately homes, where I could get help, but I only once did, and that was briefly because I felt so guilty.
I find the thread difficult to read because I can really empathise with so many of you. And I don't post because I don't have any answers. I know the pain, but not the cure.

I was emotionally and physically abused. However, as much as i might be able to describe the physical abuse, and people would be able to relate to it, its the emotional abuse that really hurt, and is still hurting.

My eldest DC is about the age - he is 14 - that i was when the emotional abuse really kicked in. It never really slowed down, it was just that i moved away so it was more intermittent.

I finally stood up to my DM this week. I pushed her firmly away, but without her being able to blame it on me being overemotional. Now, i'm waiting for the backlash.

I also feel bad that she's trapped in an abusive relationship (that she's chosen to stay in for 50years).

Thanks Tarbert it means a lots.
💐 To you

I find it hard to believe it's abuse (& that I didn't know it for 43 years) because it's 'only' emotional abuse.
I only know it is because it's so hurtful.

Hi Tarbert,

Without diminishing the horrific effects of physical abuse, the books I've read along with numerous cases here make me firmly believe emotional abuse is responsible for fucking us all up for many years. It permeates everything we do, and any reminder of the past can reduce us to complete wrecks. That's without complex PTSD, self-harm and all the other associated "goodies".

I concur that posts here can be extremely difficult to read. They are often very relatable to our own experiences. Although it's our own experiences that enable this thread to be so very powerful - as someone very wise said to me it's this relation and posting about ourselves that helps others realise they aren't alone, and can help kickstart the slow, painful, arduous recovery process.

More power to you for standing up to your mother. Your DS being 14 has brought back many painful memories?

Hah fc, emotional abuse doesn't exist because words can't hurt, don't you know? Pisses me off so much this bullshit is so peddled.

It's very very clever & very well hidden & very deliberate.

fc301

re your comment:-

"The flowers thing is quite nice but the trouble is the last few text etc from her I'm pretty sure have been secret as he's still angry with me (for defending myself).
What I need her to do is stand up to him, tell him he's been a shit & he needs to put it right.
This will be happening definitely on the 12th of Never".

The flowers you received were an unwanted gift loaded with obligation so was not at all nice. You wanted to be left alone. They ignored your no contact stance and overstepped your boundaries yet again here (same with the Christmas cards and e-mails from your dad). You did the right thing in passing the flowers onto your friend. Certainly consider doing a second birthday celebration without their knowledge.

No contact however, is precisely that. There is no acknowledgement of anything. You also do not read anything from them either. Block all their means and ways of communicating with you as of now. Cards for the dc from them should be binned or otherwise shredded without opening; do not subject your children to their manipulation.

It sounds like you are still receiving text messages; I would block her number as of right now. Your parents get what they want out of this dysfunctional relationship of theirs and you cannot help anyone who does not want to be helped. Its been her decision and not your fault at all that she has chosen to remain within this.

What if anything do you know of their family backgrounds; that often gives clues. It may well be that she saw her own mother being similarly abused by her dad so is repeating simply what she already knows. Such dysfunction as well often goes down the generations.

Emotional abuse is indeed just as damaging as physical abuse but the scars are internal. It has not always been recognised and emotional abuse is often insidious in its onset. Also abusive people can be "nice" sometimes but the nice/nasty cycle is a continuous one.

Attila

As a new thread is due soon, I was wondering if we could have Donna Jackson Nazakawa's excellent Childhood Disrupted book (https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Childhood-Disrupted-Your-Biography-Becomes-Biology-Heal/1476748365/ref=sr11_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1487499127&sr=8-1&keywords=donna+jackson+nakazawa) added to resources?

It deals with the effect SCUTS - Severe Childhood Unpredictable Toxic Stress (Syndrome) - so any form of childhood abuse essentially - can have on us in later life, and offers suggestions on ways to begin healing.

I hope you're well.

They've been blocked on my phone & FB at least since Xmas. I don't answer the landline.
I didn't acknowledge the flowers as it's just a way of opening up another conversation.
Got DH to open kids cards but will bin in future.
Thanks attila x

DM mother was very selfish so I think it just feels very normal to her.
My DF's mother didn't handle a new baby very well (up till then he was her baby). They were not too bright, not very emotionally intelligent but really lovely people. Also they were really poor and she had 5 kids!
Honestly not enough to justify him. Maybe he was inherently selfish and that just hardened him.
Honestly I think my parents have just created this dynamic now as he is much worse. I think 50 years of pandering someone can create a malignant narcissist.

Steve

It should be possible to add that publication to the existing list of resources at the start of this thread when this thread becomes full. I have made a note of the title and author.

I am very well thank you for asking. Hope you are doing ok too.

hello all, i can relate to so much of what is being written here. i've always identified with being the scapegoat but also feel that i can identify with the other roles within a narcissistic family environment, that i have taken on the other roles as well, is this possible? my family dynamics were complex, i was the only one who was physically abused mainly by my father but also by his sister & occasionally my mother, i suffered mental abuse at the hands of all elder members, i was the eldest child also eldest grandchild. i have been nc (no contact?) with all the family apart from a deceased brothers partner, contact is very minimal here & is only the occasional text with small talk & greeting cards. i am married but remain very isolated, i believe i have been grieving for the relationships i never had, lost childhood etc, i feel very lonely & empty, it saddens me that i had this family who treated me the way they did, that it's a waste, it shouldn't be this way for me or for any of us. i have a basic understanding of the dynamics, reasons why i suffered, still am suffering, i've done contact & nc but feel bad in either situation, although i am currently in year 4 of most recent nc, i have no intention of getting back in contact, i am considering or more slowly distancing myself from the last tie (deceased brothers partner). over the years i have distanced myself from main family members & then when bereavements have occurred have seen the flying monkeys for who they were (mothers brothers & sisters doing her bidding) coming to the realisation that none of these people ever cared for me at all, that their only concern was for themselves & my mother again made me feel very sad, extremely empty. as well as various physical illnesses i am battling depression, anxiety & ocd, have been for most of my life. i am trying very hard to move forward in my life but like my screen name i feel very much stuck, some time ago a very good counsellor came up with a very good explanation for that once, something to do with me being beaten by my father, like at the time i froze, in shock, unable to fight back etc. i recently finished a course of nhs counselling but found it made me very ill, i didn't really gel with the counsellor but also don't trust the nhs due to negligence issues with myself also deceased brother. thanks for reading

@SeriousSteve Yes, DS being 14 is triggering for me. I look at him and see how grown up he is but also how young, and I find it hard to fathom what DM saw when she looked at me back then and thought the best thing to do was to tell me she was going to make me homeless?

Then, there's the stuff she didn't do. DS is slowly turning into the adult he's going to be. He needs support and space and love. He needs to be allowed his privacy and to be treated with respect. I.e. the things that every 14 year old needs.
DM didn't do any of that. I didn't have boyfriends, or drink or smoke or swear. I dressed normally and I worked hard at school, never getting into trouble. She seemed to have trouble accepting that. She was convinced that I was always on the cusp of "getting yourself a reputation and that no decent boy would ever want to know you." When she couldn't find evidence to support it, she just looked harder for proof.
As to my school success, nothing annoyed her more than that. I don't know why, but I think it was something to do with her lie self esteem combined with her inability to see me as a separate person, but there I was not living down to her low expectations.
She still has trouble accepting that her DC are valued by other people. She still thinks that everyone else is making a mistake. All except for the golden child.

*@Tarbert
*
Your post just opened my eyes.

Both my parents, and older brother, disregarded my privacy. No regard for my feelings about it. Once my brother caught me doing what teenage boys do, in the privacy of my bedroom. He's seven years older and proceeded to tear me apart emotionally about the filthy, disgusting thing I was doing.

I was a high achiever at school, despite no support from either parent. At the final parents evening prior to mocks, I was told they "could not afford" for me to go to college or uni, that they wouldn't be able to put food on the table. My father hurt his back really badly in his 30s so couldn't work, can walk though etc, and mother had a small PT job. Utter bollocks either way. Predictable how my GCSEs went. Throughout secondary my homework was always poor - thanks to parents actively preventing me studying. No heating upstairs. Loud TV downstairs. Yet classwork always top notch. Pretty sure there would be questions asked nowadays.

My brother remains the golden child to this day. And I still should have been female.

Sorry, I know that's all about me!

@SeriousSteve I'm sure you've worked this out a long time ago, but as a mother, what you needed and should've had was for your brother to have either reassured you it was normal or pretend not to have noticed (such that you were convinced that you'd got away with it). And then made absolutely certain that he never charged into your room without warning again.

I hope you got to university. My parents stopped going to parents evening - they found it boring. Y Y to the cold bedroom and determination not to allow any heating when I was studying late in the evening.

I didn't, but am starting with the OU shortly. I managed to forge a decent career, and was published, until my DWs health deteriorated to needing a full time carer. That really pissed my mothers chips.

This thread is great for being able to read people's introspectives and realise you were, and are not, alone.

seeking advice from those on here who have difficult relationships with parents.

i was NC last year, the nearly this year re-made contact with DM and stepdad, was very honest talking with about why I had gone NC. I felt like they listened to some of it, and maybe the rest went in one ear and out the other. But they do seem to have been trying since.

now the topic of my DD staying overnight with them has come up (not their request per say, but I haven't been out in ages and they would be willing to have her along with grandchildren from my sister/step-brother and sister, he would be the youngest)

there are couple of issues here. firstly they won't babysit at my house, will only have the grandchildren at theirs. i know this isn't entirely unusual, but my DD is 3 and hasn't ever had a night away fro me before.

the second and bigger issue is that when i've previously visited and seen them looking after other grandchildren, they have been drinking. and not always small amounts - stepdad on his second pint, mother with a large goblet style glass of red wine being topped up.

i've been very clear already - i wouldn't drink while looking after DD, i would never hire a babysitter who even suggested they would drink looking after her. i would need them to be honest with me and if they don't feel they can go without drink they shouldn't agree to look after her in the first place.

the trouble is, even if they say they won't drink i don't know whether i can trust them not to say one thing and do another. thoughts are crossing my mind of having to go around as a spot check with a breathalyser, which is ridiculous.

'what would you do?' - i'm sort of answering my own question in a sense - i would never forgive myself if anything happened to DD. i've just not had a break of any kind in years (about 4 years) and it's tempting to agree to her being round there. i don't even know what i would do with the night off, really. if anything happened to her i would never forgive myself - especially if there had been no particular need for them to look after her.

other people's parents look after them all day, even take on a childminder role, they don't ever seem to have to question their capability, let alone try to get assurance they won't behave negligently.

am i being unreasonable? can't always see it if i am being a bit over-dramatic or rigid. is drinking par for the course with the baby boomer generation?

mylongawaitedlife

Was wondering why you decided to get back in contact with your mother and stepfather at all?.

What sort of people were and are they to you now? Have they really changed and acknowledged what happened here properly?. After all people do not go no contact with parents on a mere whim or fancy; its usually done after a long period of reflection and trying along with realising that self preservation is needed. Toxic parents as well more often than not become toxic as grandparents too.

From what you write it does not sound like they have really taken full responsibility for what happened nor have they really apologised for their actions. Given this as well as their drinking (probably each evening as well) I would not trust them to look after your child. Your child so you have the final say here; if you are not comfortable you do not have to do anything you do not want to here.

If you want to go out I would use a professional babysitting service like Sitters instead. They won't drink alcohol on the job and they are all checked and vetted thoroughly. My son is older now so their services are no longer needed but I have used them since he was small without any problems.

I guess a huge part of the issue is why you went NC. NC is a big step and obviously means significant events have taken place in the past. Generally people don't change. Would you trust them with your daughter? I'd be concerned they didn't seem fully invested in why you went NC in the first place. I would be very, very cautious here - both about your daughter and indeed about your own contact with them.

If you want some background reading, Susan Forward's "Toxic Parents" book is superb and enlightening.

As for the alcohol - your daughter, your rules. I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

Yeah, Attila said what I meant far more eloquently!

Thanks Attila and Steve

Typing here quickly while my DD is asleep

When I went NC it was really because of a last straw, there were a lot of things before that that were much worse and when I did it, I guess I didn't mean to entirely, but life was busy and I put them at the bottom of my priority list, time went by and I was irritated by messages they sent me (accusations, guilt trips) so didn't respond to anything, and before I knew it a year had gone by. When I got back in touch I sat them down and was very honest, I apologised for leaving it so long before getting back in touch. They didn't actually apologise for anything, though listened to a list of things I had to say to them. Stepdad told my DM had been having nightmares due to me not being in touch, things like that - which I guess was partly putting the blame back on me.

Partly I feel bad for DD not having any 'family' - if it weren't for that I might well be somewhere else entirely with very limited contact. I am a LP and her dad left when I was pregnant and won't see her at all, so she has NC on his side, and on my side family is dysfunctional and limited. She has just got to the age where she has begun to notice that other people have 2 parents, siblings, aunts, grandparents (they did a family tree for her at nursery just to show her that compared to everyone else she doesn't have these people around her, thanks to them for that).

Honestly, if anything happened while they were looking after her I would never forgive myself, and I just don't trust them not to drink (even if they promise me they won't - yes they seem to drink every evening and half the day at the weekend). I don't think they would be cruel, but to drink while looking after her would be negligent. Even if nothing happened to her, I also don't want her to see it - they get louder when they're drinking, think they are funny when they are not - it's not behaviour I'm ok with around a child.

Have downloaded the book, thanks, had better get reading. Though I don't need to read it to know I'm a mess. I am a bit psychological/emotional mess. Trying to avoid DD becoming the same.