"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thanks pocket hug gratefully received. It's the little things. Like driving thru where she used to live, it's on the way to my pool

You wonder if you're missed, but the the evidence is ll to the contrary.

There are days I just want to shout it all out, so everyone knows what she did, and how much I was hurt.

Thing is, the family that know seem to think there are two sides...

When your mum moves house without telling you where she's moving to, there's only the one side. Christmas is approaching... The trough will last for a while yet...

Thanks tho pocket it really helps to be heard xx

I've been reading this thread for ages a while but haven't been brave enough to share my side yet. Here goes...

I was raised by a very authoritarian mother. My father died when I was a child, growing up around them was unpleasant. My mother, in her narcissism and co-dependency kept exposing me to their emotional abuse in order to win their approval and prove what a Good Mother she was. Behind closed doors was another matter.

I was assaulted at secondary school, something my mother knew about but did nothing about (school weren't going to do anything with an OFSTED inspection looming so between themselves they conspired to sweep it under the carpet) I only found out years later that she knew.

When a friend of mine died suddenly, again, no emotional response whatsoever from her because it would have taken the spotlight away from her victim status.

After going to university and moving away, our relationship improved with the distance and she gradually became more tolerable. She was always disappointed that I hadn't accepted her religion (I'm an atheist) and that I wasn't spending time with my father's family.

I decided to give my father's family one more crack of the whip, so to speak. So I asked my mum to invite them to a milestone birthday. A cousin decided he wanted to make a speech. I was a bit about this, but it started off nicely enough. Then he asked individual family members in turn to recall stories about me... The thing was, these stories weren't very nice. It was a pretty humiliating experience. I drove back to the town I was working in, in tears.

I resolved never to have anything to do with them again, and I've gone NC for over 2 years.

I'm getting married next year and made the decision with my OH to have immediate family only (small wedding,

fc301 I totally get that feeling of "it wasn't that bad." interestingly enough i developed eating issues at that age also but the cause has never been known. I think for me it was a way of filling a void, and anxiety

Turnipcake I can relate to that. I was bullied a lot at school also and like yours it turned physical. The effects of that were downplayed a lot by my DF.

Turnipcake, my M was the same about bullying. I had issues at school, thankfully never violent but my M didn't want to know. I think it's because it wasn't about her.
At least you have the strength to stand up to her about your extended family and refuse to entertain her opinions on your wedding.
Hope you have a lovely wedding without any unnecessary drama

Hissy i felt that way for ages. i wanted him dead so i wouldn't have to be afraid any more.

poppetiwasbackthen- me too. the mental breakdowns and also people didn't think my father could have done it. i am still not believed

i have found this thread very validating and am glad i am not alone....

user1476087651- me too. I find it validating. It is so important to feel heard.
I don't think I am believed. When the burden of this secret became too much to live with and I became ill, my mother would rarely visit me in hospital and when she did she would tell me how much 'all of this was hurting her'.
Now, years later, it's as if that conversation I had with her never happened. She never acknowledges it. Ever.
I told myself that maybe it upset her too much and she feels guilty perhaps...although I never blamed her. But now, she will happily gossip about and give her opinion on high profile historic abuse cases to me , but never refer to my 'case'. I just can't understand this.
Awana- thank you. Your reply meant a lot especially as it was my first time posting on this site.

I just wish someone would side with me. Give her some grief for having been so bloody cruel!

It's tiring to keep telling yourself "it's not you" over and over.

Argh. I am really struggling with my sister right now.

My mother has some MH issues - anxiety, depression mainly. When I was still at home, my sister and I were treated very differently - she was the golden child, I was the scapegoat. I was surrounded by rules, she had a far more lax regime, I was subjected to a lot of violence and bullying, she had an easier time.

I left home as soon as I could, my sister has been living at home for the last 20 years, getting a lot of help for free (ironing, shopping, the ability to save a ton of money for a housing deposit). While this has all been happening, I've had some really rough times where my family haven't been there in any supportive way, citing the need to support her as the excuse not to raise a finger. (This is their bad, and not something I blame her for).

Now I fully understand and accept that being the golden child is also a burden. I go out of my way to acknowledge that it is difficult. But I feel like I am being gaslighted in return. She refuses to acknowledge the violence or the abuse I suffered. She refuses to acknowledge that my parents cited the need to help her as a reason not to help me. She refuses to recognise that we have been treated differently. She even refuses to accept that her presence at home has led to extra work for my parents (even though the only thing she actually contributes is a bit of cooking) or that she has benefitted financially from it. It's like an alternative reality is being maintained to shield her ego from the consequences of her choices, IYSWIM.

The other thing she does - constantly - is to try to control people by repeating all the nasty things others have said about them. So she will manipulate you by telling you so-and-so said this or that. I know she will be doing this to my parents, about things I have said about them, and I know it is partly responsible for the rift between us. But she also does it to me about their criticisms and those of other family members. It seems completely inappropriate to me to repeat anything said in confidence, and doubly so if it is likely to hurt someone's feelings. Because everything that happened is really raw for obvious reasons, I feel like I'm constantly being drawn into a world of pain and rejection by this. I've asked her not to repeat things, but it doesn't work.

This isn't normal, right? I know it's all the result of the way my parents have set the whole situation up, but I can't help but feeling she is more and more actively a part of the problem.

Advice much appreciated.

Hello stately homes posters,

How do other posters manage when they are around people talking about their parents and families? I abandoned a dinner once when people started going around the table talking about their relationships with their mothers. I said I was not feeling well and left. I find spending time with my DH's extended family particularly distressing. I find it difficult to describe, but there is something about the warmth and love in his extended family that I find overwhelming. PIL are another story - that relationship is more difficult, perhaps because they are closer to me, but DH aunts and uncles and cousins appear normal when we are in their company. I sometimes find myself picking out sinister undertones to their interactions, because in my case when I was a child the abuse was so well hidden and my parents are at the moment in some sort of mixture of denial and anger with me as I start to talk with them about what it was that I went through.

A MH professional suggested "you can just tune out for a bit", but I feel as if I have spent most of my life dissociated and it seems shite that I need to do this in order to survive my life now and the everyday activities and conversations that that entails. At the same time, I do not feel as if I want to start talking about how my parents treated me either. That is hardly dinner-table conversation. Whatever I do feels like a betrayal of someone, either my parents, or myself as a child, or me now.

Does anyone have any suggestion?

Shovetheholly - if it was me I think I would be putting some distance between myself and your sister. You probably aren't going to be able to change the way she is or thinks. The only thing you can change is yourself and the way you react to it. You can't stop her causing drama but you can take no notice and get on with living your life away from it all. In my experience, people like this need to feed off other people's reactions. Just don't give her anything back. Good luck

Erinaceous yes it is v difficult with 'normal' people. Being treated badly by your parents is so taboo they just don't get it.

Lifeaintblackandwhite thanks for sharing about your eating disorder. I read something which helped. It's to do with forming a sense of self and (not) having your feelings validated as you develop, and having some say over your own life xx

fc301 Thanks for your message. Is that what it is? I tend to think about the religious angle, "honor thy father and mother". One professional told me once when I was telling her a couple of things that had happened to me that "your parents are supposed to protect you" and I thought, are they? Is that true? Can one say that? Is there a "supposed to" in this? Because I am told by my parents and by my siblings that I am the source of the problem, that I am cruel, and so on. I am not a parent so I have no idea how hard it is to be one, but not all parents are abusive, I have figured this much out. I find it difficult when I talk about my feelings with my parents or my siblings, only to be told that "you are the abuser". If an adult child expressing their anger and hurt at the way they have been treated towards their parents is of itself abusive then I am left with no voice at all with which to narrate what has happened to me.

Another thing I find difficult is anecdotes of abuse towards children being normalised, being told I "ought" to forgive, normaised abuse of partners, or even tales of bullying in the workplace. Anything that has an echo of abuse down a power axis or in a close relationship. I accept that these things do happen, but there have been "hilarious" anecdotes that I have gone back to the anecdote reteller afterwards and said really? I do not do this all the time but I do do it sometimes, depending how I feel at the time.

Probably the prime reason I have cut off my parents is that contact with them HURT me. Because after 6 months of explaining myself (my upset) they JUST COULD NOT GET IT. I don't get to have feelings I am meant to fit in. They are never going to get it erinaceous. Them saying "you are the abuser" is just them projecting. Your feelings are an inconvenience.

PS 'cruel' 'abusers' do not seek help and support in a forum to attempt to understand/resolve.

Agree it's difficult to be sore, now I understand the extreme selfishness it colours how I see everything else

*difficult NOT to be sore

I think families who deny have 2 stakes in denial:

1. Protection of their own sense of self. One defining feature of abusive family relationships is that they are set up to deny the feelings, equality or selfhood of one member, in order to benefit the others in some way. Challenging this is a threatening disruption, not only to the dynamic but to the underlying sense of self and self-worth.

1. Protection of their own victim narratives. This is not something we talk about enough, because to acknowledge that an abuser might also be a victim in another light is often a way of denying the abuse and the pain it creates. But people - including and even particularly abusive people - are very attached to their own victim narratives. These can be very black-and-white, and that involves a kind of editing out of any material that is disturbing to the purity of their sense of victimisation. This one-eyed view is profoundly about NOT taking responsibility, and it allows the marginalisation (or indeed total erasure) of anything that doesn't fit the narrative.

So, for example, my mother is definitely a victim of terrible, narcissistic parenting by my grandmother, and she's had more than her fair share of physical and mental illness partly as a consequence of this, partly as bad luck. But that is not to deny that she wasn't the greatest mother herself, precisely because of what she has been through - she was cold, distant, and very controlling and later became really violent. Her victim narrative is wall-to-wall: she sees herself as so put-upon that she doesn't have to do anything for her eldest daughter or anyone else in the family All her resources of care are focused on just one child. She also believes emotions are totally uncontrollable, which is how she excuses her own loss of control.

My sister is also the victim - she had a short, abusive relationship with a guy as at teenager, whose behaviour was bad enough as it was, but she has exaggerated it in order to gain assistance of all kinds from my parents. She also has MH Issues, so again, that makes her life tougher than is fair. But she's used both of those things to absolve herself of all adult responsibility and all struggle, and to live as a cocooned child for 20 years, practically, emotionally and financially supported by my parents even though she has a very well paid job. Of course she can't acknowledge my experience, because that would be to confront the fact that she has benefitted enormously from the very dynamic that has damaged me. So she denies it too: I have to be written out or she can't be the Big Victim.

Finally, I don't think "ordinary" people can understand abusive families. The reaction on here to so many of our stories would be "why don't you just move on with your life?" But abuse doesn't work like that - it's like a primordial rejection, and it shatters your sense of self at the very root. One of the hardest things I find is that I still have contact with my family, so it is like I have to inhabit two realities: one where I know what happened and that the dynamic is sick and twisted, and the other where the dynamic (and my worthlessness within it) are normalised. I find the shift of gear between the two, and the fact that I am the one who has to make ALL the running in the relationships (my family never deign to visit me) hard to take.

Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, however old you are, you carry that ungroundedness with you. I'm fed up with it, so I'm back to the counsellor this week to see if I can work out a new way of being.

shovethehollydefinitely agree with the victim status that these people have.
No matter what happens in her life, my mother is never in the wrong. It's always someone else's fault for everything.
She even blames the parents of a school friend because she smokes. She said she felt pressured into it when she went on holiday with them. This would have been over 40 years ago!
She can't control her emotions either and makes no attempt to. She screamed at me and stormed out of the house once when I was about 12 because I had cooked dinner and she didn't like the boiled potatoes. Although this was over 20 years ago her attitude hasn't changed. I don't think it ever will. I just try not to be dragged into the latest issue she has.

erinaceus telling other people can be really difficult. It's something I still struggle with at times. Luckily I have the full support of my DH and his family which helps.
I think there will always be people who never understand and I've been told so many times 'you only get one mum' and 'you'll miss her when she's gone'. The truth is there will be nothing to miss except the bitchy comments and attempts to manipulate me and people around me.
Society tells us that our parents were only doing their best and we should forgive them when they made mistakes. We are also told that we should only have relationships with those who treat us properly so you can't win really.
I absolutely do not think that you have to forgive. The damage done to you as a child will shape the rest of your life. I do think that you need to find a way of accepting what has happened and not let it destroy your future self worth and relationships. This is the difficult bit for me, every time I feel I've made progress and let my guard down I seem to end up going backwards. I guess it's an ongoing process.

I haven't spoken to my father for 15 years after years of abuse towards me and my mother. My mother did her best and mostly a good job when I was growing up but she was running on adrenaline and had no support. She's my rock now, but we didn't talk for a year after I left home at 15. I do still have PTSD and I really want to put this stuff to rest - people have suggested I meet him face to face and tell him what I think of him, but the idea both fires me up and fills me with dread. Any suggestions? I can't keep living life in the shadow of someone I haven't seen for more than half my life.

GreenGoth89 an ideal that I am exploring is to meet with my parents in the presence of a professional. It as hard for me when professionals describe my parents' behaviour as cruel as when my parents describe me as cruel. This is in part because my mother in particular has been abused by her own parents to a more extreme degree than I have. When I talk about my abuse with her she tells me that I do not know what abuse is, and in a sense that could be true in as much as what she went through was more extreme. I have had MH support since my teens and she only accessed it much later in life. In my family, the trauma is intergenerational.

"it's like a primordial rejection, and it shatters your sense of self at the very root."

I find this concept really difficult to get my head around. I tend to find rejection on some level easier than being accepted. It is as if in the case of my parents I was never rejected, because I was never accepted in the first place, so there was and is nothing to reject.

Erinaceus - he's an ex "professional" himself and an arch manipulator so I wouldn't trust he wouldn't pull out his "false memory syndrome" shit again. He convinced the police to not press charges so who knows what he'd do.