"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Been docs, seen trainee doc. She was A M A Z I N G. I managed to spit out I was abused, self harmed for a few years and after yesterday dangerously close to revisiting. She put me at ease, sorted tabs, told me to let Psych services now.

The way she put me at ease was brilliant. I was worried about being judged, instead I received just complete understanding.

@toomuchtooold Sorry, I should have phrased my question more clearly.
I was asking if you can ever get over abuse in the sense that once the abuse has stopped (because you've gone NC), can you ever be normal? By "normal" I mean as if you were never abused in the first place - no self-esteem issues, no tearfulness over little things, no bouts of depression, no heightened stress levels (other than what else life throws at you)?

I'm under no illusions that DM will never stop and never be sorry. I think she's irredeemably broken by her own abusive childhood. So, my question is, am I the same?

Tarbert

Tarbert apologies pressed post too soon. I'm currently trying to create a life for myself that isn't based around my childhood issues. It's really tough to get out of the mindset of being defined by how you were treated as a child.

I'm struggling with knowing what I actually want and not just doing things that I think will make other people happy.

Counselling has helped but I think the main thing is not letting it occupy any more of your headspace. I haven't achieved this yet.

I'm ever hopeful that one day I'll feel 'normal'

Ah sorry tarbert I thought you were stuck in that sort of premature forgiveness trap. So on recovery: I don't know if we can ever be normal, like what we would have been if we had normal parents - but I think you can get significant amounts of recovery. I can't recommend Pete Walker's book CPTSD: from surviving to thriving highly enough if you're struggling with self-esteem and disruptive emotions (heightened stress and the crying). I also think that we're all potentially a lot stronger than normal people, because we lived the abuse and survived.

Tarbert

Susan Forwards "Toxic Parents" and Donna Jackson Nazakawa's "Childhood Disrupted" have good sections on beginning to heal too.

I sadly doubt we can ever be completely normal following a period of abuse. We're abused at the time of our lives where we are most vulnerable, by people we have implicit trust in. It has to take its toll.

It bothers me that I've just rejected someone (DM) who has spent their entire life suffering because of the rejection they experienced in childhood. So, she was rejected at the start of her life and again at the end.
If there were any other way, then I'd take it, but there is not.
A few years ago, I thought we'd had a breakthrough. There was a whole year afterwards when things were not too bad. But it ended when my dsis deliberately encouraged DM to start treating me like an incompetent, rebellious teenager again. She did it right in front of my eyes in two days. I couldn't believe what I was seeing or that all the good work DM and I had put in to rebuilding our relationship could be destroyed so quickly. Dsis has complained all her life about having to put up with hearing DM and me argue but when we weren't arguing, she set about provoking DM into attacking me again. I'll never understand why she did that.
Since then, however, I've been under no illusions that there is no way DM and I will ever have an OK relationship.

On another thread I heard the phrase " don't set yourself on fire to keep them warm." That captures it for me. There's a world of difference between rejecting a child - innocent, in need of emotional care, with nobody else to turn to - and an adult who has abused you, who could choose to be different if they wanted to and who, while they might be in need of care, certainly isn't going to flourish by being enabled to continue to abuse.

Its a good saying.
TBH I know I don't have a choice - I know DM and my siblings would say that of course I do, but none of them have much idea what impact it all has. I think they think that me crying or getting angry and telling DM that she's wrong about me, is just me. Like my tears don't hurt, only theirs do.

So, I know I have no choice and that makes it easier / possible to do it.

However, I do feel guilty because I know it will hurt DM.
DM has (obviously) been an adult in our relationship all my life and yet she's still to take responsibility for her own behaviour and even though I know this, I still can't help but feel guilty.

stuck sorry too as I was writing loads yesterday and didn’t reply to your post. I think I would find it hard to give out advice or anything like that but a lot of what you said in your post on Sunday sounds pretty familiar.

Steve just looked up the SCUTS thing, that’s interesting.

Did you parents control, or attempt to control, you during your childhood? Were you always the problem? When you say control, what do you mean? You see, I don’t know, I’m not sure whether I know what was right or wrong, whether I was actually bad and a problem (yes that is how DM talked about me it’s one of the things I said had always upset me, when I sat down with them a short while ago). Wish I could be objective, I’m willing to concede no child is perfect and I had my moments, and also no parent is perfect and lashes out sometimes. I do feel like I was always the one singled out for punishment, I don’t honestly don’t know whether I was or this is just a perception. .

toomuch yes to your whole paragraph. when DD was a baby I got that response from HVs and it was only when I pointedly described the alcohol and why it wasn’t a solution to ask them for help that they begrudgingly stopped pressing me about it. I found it really upsetting to feel so alone and in need of help, but feel like I was fighting to explain to people why I did’t have the help I needed and couldn’t ask for it, it was as though they were accusing me of making life deliberately difficult for myself. then when they finally got it, they would just seem to shrug and leave, had no other solutions. I wasn’t ok in myself at all (only really realise that looking back). Before that, I probably assumed HVs were trained to be more intelligent and sensitive to people’s lives than that.

Steve maybe the trainees are the less jaded ones in the NHS system?

Sitters in my area are apparently £7.50/hour, plus a £15 sign up fee for 3 months. So to go out for 5 hours would be about £37.50 + £15 + night out. Ouch. No don’t know what I would do, something to do with art and culture maybe.

So I posted and then disappeared, sorry! And now I've come back and there's a load of posts, I can't keep up.
Sending you all some
Going to read through and try to catch up.

Struggling tonight with the post on AIBU about inappropriate kissing (if I'm allowed to post about it?) the issue is very close to my own issues and it's bringing up a lot of memories. Shouldn't have posted on it, I've always been a lurker, but it hit some nerves

Ok so I have a response from DM now, so to get a second opinion though I think I have a pretty good idea of what you will say...

my message to DM about the babysitting says ^'The point I was making is it's not ok to drink while looking after her. if any babysitter wanted to drink any alcohol while looking after her of course that would be wrong, it's negligent behaviour. I need to be able to trust that you are both completely sober while she is with you, and that you will be honest with me about that. If you don't think you can manage it, I would rather you say you can't/won't look after her, rather than lie to me about the drinking. I don't think I'm saying anything unreasonable, at all'.^

I then signed off by saying that providing we could come to an agreement about the drinking, we could discuss DD staying over (this was all before I posted on here). Think I was pretty clear and I stand by what I wrote in the message.

DM's replies to me as follows ^'Have read your text from yesterday and have a few observations. If I come to look after [DD] I will have to drive home so won't have a drink. However if she comes to us at the weekend I don't feel I'm negligent having a glass of wine in my own home and you certainly cannot tell [stepdad] what to do in his own house. It's mostly me who looks after the children as [stepdad] goes to bed early but I've looked after anything up to five grandchildren at a time with no problem for more than ten years. It's your choice whether you let [DD] come and stay but if you say no you are depriving her of valuable time with her cousins. Please don't fall out with us again over this'^

i should point out that stepdad goes to bed early IMHO because he has drunk, typically.

And that I don't give 2 hoots what she does with the other children as their parents my siblings get to decide what they do with theirs.

But just the way it's put, it's like she is fighting to tell me she has / they have a right to drink, over and above staying sober to care for a child, their grandchild.

ok.. AIBU??? Please do tell me because I'm getting upset here wondering if I'm going crazy. I feel like I'm being attacked and treated as though I'm wrong, when I don't feel like I'm saying anything 'not sane and reasonable'.. am I being too rigid or something?

before anyone says go NC again, that is exactly what I feel like doing, but firstly they have some of my things at the moment that I need back (sentimental, can't be replaced), and secondly there are 5 nights between now and the summer when I do need DM to babysit at mine (when she says she won't drink) so I can attend a course at work and there is no around that, that I can see.

Sorry for the long post again, I don't have anyone to talk to about this in RL right now.

Sorry, realised I might be taking over the thread with my long descriptions of family drama. Have posted this one in AIBU instead with a few details changed to see what the general population makes of it.

Post away! That's what we're here for. The way I see it with the drinking: DH and I will usually have a bottle of wine between us on a Friday and Saturday night, so neither of us is OK to drive. But that's with our kids in their own beds, normal routine, we've been with them all day and we know they're not coming down with something. If they're I'll one of us stays sober. It would be different away from the house, and certainly if it was somebody else's kids I was babysitting I would never think to drink alcohol. But in any case, the question is what they will do if you enforce this boundary. You're perfectly entitled to make sobriety a condition of them babysitting, and refuse their help if they say no. But the argument should end there. If they hold it against you, that's not right.

I agree with toomuchtooold.

It's also not on how she starts saying it's up to you, then guilts you with how she will miss out seeing her cousins etc. EA for sure.

I have started a small war over on the AIBU board, oops

marmite that last bit is VERY typical DM

Changed a few details for the AIBU board and didn't reference this thread or put the whole story on, but still it's been interesting to see people's reactions.

toomuch that's the trouble, I think it may/probably will now be seen as me being 'difficult' and if so we are right back to why I went NC for more than a year it was just so tiring dealing with this kind of thing all the time.

I've been thinking about this thread a lot since I found it this morning. Hope it is OK if I just write about some stuff that happened in my family.

Long post.

i still have both parents, and they are still married. I wish they had split years and years ago, and I also wish my dad was dead. He is a nasty, controlling, abusive man.

His public persona is that he is a fine, upstanding member of society - volunteers at his local hospital; does accounts for church; drives brides to church in his vintage car on their wedding day; helped my Granny (his MIL) a lot during her life, to the point that she added him to her will along with her 6 children; all sorts of kind and helpful things.

However, at home he is a bastard. Verbally nasty as fuck; treats my mum like a secretary and skivvy/housekeeper; bullies people who challenge him; bullied his disabled SIL who lived with my parents for the last 20 years of her life (verbal/emotional abuse, but also physically shoved her one day when we visited Granny on her 101st birthday - in a room full of family: surely I wasn't the only one to see?).
He drove me and my 2 DCs (8 & 2) home after we visited M&D at Christmas (as I don't drive), and I was rustling a bag of sweets - he blurted out "DON'T do that" and HIT ME on the leg. I shouted back at him, "How dare you hit me" - if (?) my DCs didn't see the hit, they certainly heard me say that. I started to cry, and sort of curled up - almost foetal position - as far to the other side of the car as I could. Had to hide my tears from the kids. He made some shit attempt at an apology 20 mins later - "I'm sorry I got cross". Er, no, you hit me. I told him "forget it" - I meant that it was such a pathetic apology that he might as well not bother, but I expect he took it to mean he was forgiven.
And then when we got home I wanted to scream at him and tell him to just GO, and that I never wanted to travel in his fucking car again, and that I would tell my mum that he had hit me. But the kids were there and they think he's wonderful, one of those special grandads, and so of course I just kept quiet, and he tried to HUG me before leaving to drive home.

I've not told anyone else that this happened, not even my friend (who's great) who I have told about my dad's nasty side. She has met him once, and thought he was so lovely that she can't believe the (introductory) stuff I've told her about him and his behaviour.

I am 42, pretty sure I have Asperger's/autism, and feel like a little girl much of the time, especially around assertiveness/boundaries/trust/truth/secrecy/obedience/self-esteem/submissiveness.

I have a lot more to say, but for now I'm leaving it at this.

pink just on my way to bed but didn't want to read and not reply to that

he sounds a bit like my dad, who I'm long-term NC with. charismatic, man next door, down to earth persona in public, but I've seen the other side.

@mylongawaitedlife If I were you, I wouldn't post on aibu on subjects that you already feel bruised about. It's almost the golden rule there that someone will start picking your posts apart and then there will be a pack attack on you with various people quoting you and assigning you opinions that you don't hold. Chat is a little bit friendlier if you want opinions.
Fwiw, I wouldn't drink until drunk but it sounds like you mum and step dad don't recognise their limits. If I was looking after someone elses DC, then I'd think I was doing them a favour, even if it was family. I'd not take kindly to be given directions about how to modify my behaviour. I guess if I was in denial about an alcohol problem, then I'd be even more defensive. Requiring that they both completely abstain though is perhaps a bit precious (under normal circumstances).

However I think you have a point. At least one of them should stay sober. One small glass is OK, more is not because then driving and decision making is impaired. You have good reason to believe that you can't trust them to not make good decisions, then you really shouldn't have them babysit. You won't be able to relax anyway.

I know you feel that you need your DM later this year. That's a tough position to be in. As long as you need her, then you will not be free. Is there no other way?
My DC have not had grandparents living anywhere close by, so no free babysitting. It meant our social lives became limited to visiting friends with children and paying for childcare when we needed it for work. Playdates were a godsend too. So, it isn't easy but you can manage without family around. Also, it's not forever. Even though it seems endless at the time, suddenly it's all over, and the DC can be trusted home alone for a few hours and you look back and the time that your DC really needed you send to have gone in a heartbeat.

Tarbert thank you.

I was thinking exactly that overnight about being free. Am going to ask the nursery whether anyone could do the babysitting I need for work, or whether they know anyone who could. Would be a cost but would mean I'm not indebted for anything to DM, and she can't use that indebtedness in a way I feel I have no choice.

It's the bit about depriving DD of valuable time with her cousins I don't like really. It's only been about 6 weeks since I sat down and talked to them about what was upsetting me, and overnight I've been thinking how reading that yesterday I felt back to where we were before the NC.

I went more than a year with no family contact and as you say Tarbert it's hard but you can cope, especially when they don't help out much when they are around so you don't miss anything when they are not there.

@pink that sounds awful, how horrible of your dad! My dad was similar, to everyone else he was the life and soul of the party. Behind closed doors his temper terrified me.

@mylongawaitedlife if you can't managed to find childcare through nursery, could you ask friends? My 18yo dsis regularly does babysitting for my friends, they know I wouldn't recommend her if she wasn't trust worthy and good with kids.
Can you still have contact with your siblings and children, if your worry is your DD not seeing her cousins?

marmite maybe about the childcare/friends, all have DC and most at least 1 younger than DD. the nursery interact with some childminders so will ask whether one of those might do it. anything to not feel like DM can hold something over me - this is one of the problems I had before going NC, it's as though any time she thinks/knows I need something from her and she has me over a barrel, she behaves in a certain way that upsets me. both my parents have this in common actually.

pink I'm in no position to give advice clearly, but how often do you have to see your dad/do your DC see him and can you limit it more?

I know I'm extrapolating my own DM's behaviour onto other narc mothers, but I would say that she did help, in a limited way with GC who lived nearby. It was very limited (e.g. a n hour here and there after school. but only one night out ever). However, to hear her now, you'd think she'd done half the child-raising and consequently the parents "owe" her (her words).

If you can avoid leaving your DD with her GPs, then so much the better because you put yourself at risk of paying for any help given 1000 times over.

Cousins are good, and not something to be given up lightly. I understand how you'd feel there. On the other hand, your DD can always be shown a few photos and told these are your cousins/ aunts / uncles/ grandparents and you and Mummy are part of this big family and they all love you. I found this went a long way to addressing that problem, which was necessitated by distance.

thanks Tarbert yes it has already crossed my mind more than once, what will happen in the future once DM is older, ill, SD possibly gone (as they both have health problems and the drinking). The guilt trips might be unbeareable - 1000 times, yes. Honestly, have wondered whether I should move to the other side of the world already to escape that because not sure I would be strong enough to go through it. and have already spent so, so much of my life embroiled in DM's various dramas that I haven't really lived my own life just yet. also don't want DD to be drawn into DM's drama. I do wonder whether DM pressured me to return and live with her once I had DD (which she did) to line me up for being near her as she ages. Am aware that sounds paranoid and mean of me.