"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I need help tonight guys.
After years of hurt, an explosive situation in my home, storming out at 10pm last Dec and forcing my DM to choose (stay or go). Manipulative emails but no phone calls, letters etc,
Still unable to say anything nice about me or acknowledge my feelings.
So my question is - is it possible to give up on DF acknowledging he's been a shit and 'move on' by being the bigger man??
I asked for 6 months NC 4 months ago. I'm much happier but then in comes an email to ruin my evening. They've been 'cast into the wilderness'(!!) will I relent/forgive?
(I see no adaptation to their behaviour) but does anyone else successfully grit there teeth through low contact and not rise to the inevitable bait??...

I suppose I'm asking because I don't think they'll ever go away for ever so the situation will have to resolved at some point somehow, and they have both shown themselves woefully ill equipped to do this so maybe I have to?

Hi. I got recommended to come to this thread ages ago when I posted this thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2712680-Controlling-Parents-possibly-long .

Nothing has changed since then. I am still scrabbling after a nice relationship with my parents and still feel sad when I think about it. My mam was supposed to come and visit me but keeps giving me excuses about why she can't which has also upset me. But then she acts all upset when I said I probably won't be going back to the family home for my birthday or Christmas (but will be there for New Year). Well if she was so upset she would come and visit me wouldn't she? She doesn't work or have any young dependents or anything like that, there's no reason why she can't come.

And I feel so guilty being upset about it because I had lots of nice times as a child, and my parents have done a lot for me, indeed they have paid me and DH's rent for the last 3 months because we couldn't. I intend to pay them all the money back in the future when we are able to but I know that we would be really fucked without the support of my parents mostly financially, as DH's dad and step-mum are both NC with him for no apparent reason, and his mum is abusive and has also been NC with him for about 4 months now. DH had a much more difficult time than me growing up and he's always acknowledges my sadness and things with my parents but at the same time says that he'd rather have my parents than his and things which is totally true and I get that so I feel awful complaining about it.

Fc301 that is a v hard question.

You were well within your rights to lay boundaries for your mum ie either you are nice to me (according to my definitions) or ypu should leave. My therapist is reminding me of this constantly! He did it to his!

But it is hard when you have a Dad, who you like, caught up in this. I love my Dad more than any other member of my family, but I have to face up to the fact he hasn't protected me against my mother, i haven't really dealt with it yet tbh. So I don't really know what to suggest. Can you make a habit of seeing him alone?

Meadowhay, you have no reason to feel guilty about money you have taken so far, but you do need to question just how much they are trying to control you financially and how ling it can be for you to break free of this.

I don't have this problem personally, but have friends with controlling family (who have caused no end of self esteem issues due to dysfunction) who can offer life changing sums of money for houses (plural!) and it extends the controlling aspect of those relationships.

And they need the money, or are at least attracted to it due to the negative impact their low self esteem has had on their stability and confidence their poor family relationships have caused.

How long until you can be self sufficient? (With your DP?)

Sorry my post wasn't clear. It's my DF that's the shit. My DM has never stood up to him.
He chose to leave, and forced her to decide. I stated I did not want them to leave.
He's a Narcissist which is now he remembers this as being 'cast out'.
Thanks for the script about boundaries. I can use that.

Sorry Fco1, my mistake. Are they together?

I am low contact with my own family and Dh's family and it works as well as anything can do with narcs.

Are your patent's together? What does your Dad do that is distressing? I appreciate its hard to verbalise but I'm sure people on her may have experienced similar.

ethel This is probably the first time we have been properly dependent on them since we moved in together a few years ago. DH is starting work within the next few weeks so we shouldn't need to borrow any more money and I envision in a few months time we will be able to pay them back. Or maybe by the summer time anyway, I'm not sure, I'm no good with numbers so I can't really work it out! I think the issue is not so much this one incident for example of borrowing the money but the knowledge that they are a safety net for us and I appreciate that they are. I don't think there's anything wrong with that per se, I hope when we have children if they get stuck we can help them out. But my dad has always used money as a stick to beat me with later. DH doesn't really understand this because he always encourages me to ask my parents for money, not for him I mean for other things e.g. discussed possbility of doing a masters degree but mentioned the cost puts me off as wouldn't want to take out yet more student loans and DH said to just ask my dad to pay for it. He would pay for it if I asked - although possibly it may depend on what I would do it in, so that gives you some indication of how he uses money! But I wouldn't want to ask for it anyway because the thought of my parents financing us even more makes me feel awful and anxious, at a later date when arguing they will just bring it up as a reason why I must do as they say or why I'm so awful because they've given me x and y. I was always frightened of them, well more my dad, pulling the rug from under me in my adolescence and the feeling is still there every time I need to borrow from them, but DH doesn't understand this, I think more so because he believes they just talk big but would never actually do such a thing. This is probably true because they certainly never have, and have helped DH and us out on lots of other occasions with non-financial things too, but even if they wouldn't turn their backs on me the deep-rooted fear of it has been ingrained in me.

Hi ethelb yes they are still together. My mum has actually said this year "well ultimately I only see her (her DD/me) 10 days of the year so I'm going to pick DF ... that'll grow hairs on your chest I can tell you.
Basically my DF (for whatever psychological reasons) didn't have a nice word to say about me, it got to the point where he could hardly look at me, it felt like he hated me. I begged him to stop as it was heartbreaking. He listed my faults and left.

Many of us were so brainwashed and had so little experience of how families were supposed to work that we thought our lives were normal. Once I became an adult and saw a different type of family I had a great realisation of what I had lost.

This is bang on Sosidges

Hi, haven't been on here for a while but have had a bit of a wobble today. Am very low contact with NPD DF. His brother phoned today & DF's in hospital. Fall ill on plane back from holiday, plane made unscheduled landing to take him off. Nothing life threatening but feeling odd. Good he's ok, but he'd be loving the attention (made news in 2 countries) and fact he's got everyone running round. And now bracing for him getting angry at me for not contacting him which I don't plan to. Feel bad for being made to feel insensitive again.

frazmum

Its not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

You don't mention your mum; is she in your life?.

Would consider now going no contact following on from your current low contact position. Ignore any more demands from your dad (and his brother who has really been used here as a flying monkey). You really have nothing to feel guilty about although they are highly skilled at making people feel like that.

Parents divorced but her line was to always ignore him & effect on us. Only contact is him sending presents for kids. Flying monkeys are annoying. Uncle talked about my cousin maybe going to city he's in to check up on him if needed. They know what a piece of work he is but because they're one step removed & come from 'normal' families they just don't get it. That's why I get frustrated for feeling guilty about feeling insensitive.

Narcissistic people cannot do relationships so am not entirely surprised to see that your parents are no longer together.

Would not acknowledge the presents from him; infact these should be now taken to the charity shop.

This is how you deal with people like your uncle who is really not acting at all in your best interests here. Listen" to Flying Monkeys. Don't react. Then ask if they feel strongly about this. When they agree, point out they reached this conclusion without asking about your needs, so you aren't interested in what they have to say. End conversation.

Thanks. As usual great to have MN when you're having a wobble. Thankfully have full support from DH and older DC's.

Thanks. This thread has helped me (again).
I got my answer. Gave DF another chance ... got the door slammed in my face again.
I'm so dog tired of not mattering and them not caring about me whilst consistently telling me how unreasonable I'm being.

Have set up the Christmas thread ...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2791830-Not-So-Happy-Families-Youre-not-alone?watched=1

It's for those who aren't already here mostly, but needs all our help to support those who find themselves there

Xx

Ah, Christmas. I don't even know what we're doing for Christmas yet as we don't know yet if DH is working or not. We may possibly be having our first ever Christmas just the two of us, DH and I. Well, the four of us, with our guinea pigs too . A part of me is really wanting to do that because it would be so nice and calm.

Evening all, I posted a while ago on here probably around April regarding my childhood which by all accounts was neglectful, physically and emotionally abusive.

At the time I'd wanted to go NC but was still caught in the FOG but I've manged to go very low contact with both parents.

My parents has separated back then and it's fair to say they made mine and siblings life hell for the few months until they got back together. I've manged to disengage from it but my sibling hasn't. In fact it's brought alot of the abuse we suffered to the surface for them and quite honestly I think they are on the verge on a breakdown. They've been put on antidepressants and are on a lengthy waiting list for therapy as sadly they can't afford to go private.

My parents don't know the reason my sibling is unwell but it's fair to say they don't care. Anytime said sibling has tried to address the abuse to make sense of it they have minimised and denied it. For me I gave up as I know they will never admit to anything but my sibling isn't there yet. Thankfully they aren't able to lie as my account matches my siblings memories.

Which brings me to the point of the post. In the course of talking about our childhood we've both realised that there are significant periods where we have no memories. I'm not sure if this is because we spent these periods away from our parents as much as possible or because our minds have blocked any memory.

To complicate matters more my sibling is concerned about these blank periods as previously my father has been accused of sexual abuse by two other family members. I've gone through various stages when told of the accusations first I believed it and went nc my mother then convinced me it was all a mix up (some of the accusations could be crossed wires) and now I've come full circle again and now believe there is truth to it however the family members in question won't go to the police so my hands are tied. My sibling is worried our memory blanks are us blocking out things happening to us but I think it's more likely to be the violence.

I'm genuinely concerned for the mental health of my sibling, I can see they're on the brink of a breakdown and they're tying themselves in knots over our parents and our childhood and what they can't remember so my question is how do I help them? I've learned through time to disengage but my siblings hates conflict and is a people pleaser and I know they fear going nc or low contact due to any potential fallout from it and for similar reasons they've got a massive amount of guilt and fear about the sexual abuse allegations and I just don't know how to help them come to terms with it all

Hi, I'd like to get into a space where others can hear my story and I can hear theirs. I haven't read the thread yet because I need to share my story, it's the middle of the night and I've finally plucked up the courage to talk. Congratulations to everyone who's managed to do that so far. It's difficult when you can see what you've written, it makes it all so real and valid.

To be brief, I was emotionally, physically and sexually abused by my 4 elder brothers until I was 16. Although the abuse continued over the years it varied in intensity and frequency but it continued. I was bullied and ostracized at school, suffered sexual assaults by people outside the home and I was in an abusive relationship ship from the age of 14.

I left home following an attempt on my life from my brother who's 18 months older than me. We were alone in the house and he chased me from room to room with an 8 inch kitchen knife.

There followed a brief marriage in which I was raped, I had 2 young children so I tried to stick it out. I couldn't in the end, I then left and went to my father's house, I was homeless. He pressured me for sex endlessly and assaulted me sexually. I had to prove I could provide a stable home for my children so I had to stay there. I tried to laugh it off but he keot it up at a lower level until I left 2 years later, the divorce was complicated.

It has transpired that my sister had similar experiences with our brothers and as adults we've reported it. The problem for me is that I've been accused by these people of lying when I've tried to do something about it before, I'm 38 now. My Dad's becoming frail, but he's taken one of my brothers in to live with him as SS have said he can't stay at home. I know that this particular brother had me dismissed as an utter fantasist when I told my younger sister about what my Dad did to me, I was again ostracized and bullied. I have had to tell the police what my Dad did because I know if I don't then my brother will use it as 'proof' that I'm a mentally unstable fantasist.

I feel truly terrible, I had worked hard to try to look after my Dad over the last few years and he has helped me decorate my home and generally been really kind and helpful. I know some of this was guilt, but we were really close when I was a child, my mother is dead and his second wife has gone into residential care due to Alzheimer's.

I feel utterly wretched about telling the police about my Dad. I detest myself for it, he's such a proud man and he'll be terribly ashamed. He told everyone at the time that he was looking after me and my children. I have a chronic illness and have severe depression and I claimed DLA at the time, most of which went to him, but he told everyone I couldn't be bothered to get up amd look after my children, or at least inferred it. I know my brother will persuade my father to use what I told the police to discredit me, or at least to try to. My brother is very manipulative and he will try anything to taint my reputation.

Over a decade later I'm married again to a decent man, but he doesn't understand my self loathing and the shame I feel at teling the police, largely because when I disclosed it at the time it was minimised and my integrity was questioned. Things such as my inability to challenge him, what I was wearing and the point that I couldn't leave and therefore didn't do so have all led to my allegations being questioned.

Honestly, I wish I could escape this life. I keep going because I have small children and my husband. I can't leave him to raise the children! He's a good man but we have different priorities. I wish I could just end it all. I'm filled with self loathing. I wake up hungry and I don't want to bother feeding myself, but I know if I have no fuel inside me I can't function. I have no desire to engage in any self-care. I hate myself and I would just end it if I could. I've done all I ever wanted to do, other than raising my littlest ones to adulthood. Once I've completed that I can sign off permanently. I just so much resent and hate having to feed and clean myself when I hold myself in such contempt. I'm really sorry this is s long but I just had to share this somewhere.

I'm goung to try and sleep, they usually awake around 6pm but I'll be back on tomorrow. Thanks so much for reading this, wishing you brave people love and peace.

Am no contact with family other than DS.

Meant to say children usually wake around 6am :)

Pulya I'm so sorry that happened to you but so pleased you and your sister have decided to confront it.

I don't really know what advice to give but your family's response is typical.

I'm sorry your husband and the police aren't more supportive.

Thanks Ethel. My husband's a nice man, he just doesn't see how unsupported I am. The police will hopefully help without pushing me to press charges against my Dad, I feel wretched with guilt at having had to tell the police. He was awful to me in terms of sexual harassment, but I've tried to be forgiving. I feel like the lowest of the low.
If I could just die I would but I won't leave the children, I am their mainstay. Thanks so much for answering, I really needed someone to hear me.

Pulya, that is an awful situation to be in. Do you access any counselling? I know your F has been helpful at times, but the damage he has done and allowed to be done in the past cannot be so easily made up. You are not doing anything shameful now. You are simply telling the truth. If he doesn't like your truth, then that really isn't your problem. Hang in there Pulya, I do hope you DH finds a way to understand what you need.