"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Ultimately pootle going no contact with his mother as well will benefit you as a family unit. She is basically continuing the golden child (your DH's brother) and scapegoat (your DH) dynamic with your own children now also in her firing line.

goasipHound -that is really disappointing about GP contact rights. There’s no escape. Awful when you just want them to leave you alone and I’m so sorry you’ve had all that stress. We were thinking about NC with a GP – I don’t know your full story and ours is quite trivial probably compared to yours but perhaps supervised visits are the way to go for us after finding this out It would be great to be able to move a long way away and just disappear though.

Hi Attila
Thanks for your thoughts-I agree with you about shredding the cards-unfortunately the DC just opened them-we had no idea who they were from.
Hopefully DH will leave any Christmas presents at MILs this time.
I feel bad for the kids in all this-should they see their cousins though-it's not their fault? However I guess that's why BIL is doing this-he wants me to feel like that! (DH doesn't want them too though)

Thanks very much for replies - I'm sorry I haven't figured out how to do the name in bold yet to properly acknowledge.

SeriousSteve - Yes, you're right - there's no way to make her see my point of view or acknowledge my feelings. I keep forgetting. I don't know why I think things will be different. Thank you for replying.
fc301 - thank you for your kind words. I really appreciate it. Absolutely clear conscience!
Attila - thank you for the recommendations, I will definitely have a look.

I'm just exhausted by it. I spoke to a family friend about it (who my mother has consistently treated poorly too). And her response was along the lines of 'she tries to do the right things/she's desperate to be a grandmother/fat is a compliment in Caribbean cultures (where she's from)'. I feel at a bit of a loss. I'd love to cut them out but I feel like I'd come off as the unreasonable one and I'd lose all of my family. I'm not sure I can handle everyone seeing me as the monster and them as the victims.

Wow sosidges That's exactly what my DF used to say when DM was causing trouble-"just walk away!" and exactly what he did too and yes it worked for him but he didn't want to understand how I couldn't do that/it didn't make me feel better. I think he was afraid himself-maybe your OH was afraid too.

The people on this thread are amazing, I found it fairly recently and am still reading/learning. It is a bit like counselling here I think-but the insight from peoples real life experiences are really valuable. As you say if you haven't been through it you can't really understand. My counsellor is great but just thinks I should get on with life now. I can't explain that I still can't!!

I do/did worry about how I would be as a mother (wasn't sure that I wanted DC's for a long time as I didn't want to risk damaging them too) I also worry that DCs will NC with me.

It is wonderful that you have such a good relationship with your DC and that your DD said that! I would have been in tears! -this is just what you hope for isn't it? To know you have done a good job and kind of put it right for your DC.
There is hope for me now

Zumbumba

re your comment:-

"I spoke to a family friend about it (who my mother has consistently treated poorly too). And her response was along the lines of 'she tries to do the right things/she's desperate to be a grandmother/fat is a compliment in Caribbean cultures (where she's from)".

It could be argued here that your friend is just trying to defend the indefensible by tying to put a gloss on it. She does not really get it and she is really not acting in your best interests here either. Your mother likely had parents who treated her abusively in her own childhood (btw what do you know about her background?) but instead of seeking the necessary help and vowing never to repeat the same carried out similar abusive treatment on you.

Your mother was not a good parent to you as a child and she will not be a good example of a grandparent to your child either, toxic parents more often than not make out for being toxic grandparents as well. They are not good grandparents.

It is also not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. She is still a toxic narcissist and they in particular are very bad grandparent figures.

Narcissists tend to over value or under value the relationship with the grandchild, it is never a healthy relationship.

Make yourselves unavailable to your family of origin.

Zum

FYI:-

Emphasis
Bold: hello gives hello
Underline: hello gives hello
Italics: hello gives hello
Strikethrough: hello gives hello

You use the * key to bold lettering.

e.g. zum

Please can I ask a question? Did anyone else who had a toxic family end up with long term anxiety issues and phobias? (And if so, how did you get rid of them and how long did it take?)

-like this?-

Attila- I know how to bold, how dyu do the others? (Not quite a MN virgin!)

Zumbumba thanks. It doesn't feel brave.most days I feel like the worlds biggest shit. I have to remind myself I'm a nice person (who doesn't deserve this).

Helpnc, my anxiety centres round self doubt. Any encounter I have with family, strangers professionals, I replay again and again in my mind. Did I say the right thing, what did they think of me, did I talk to much or too loud?

One of the things I loved about my OH was that he never criticised. When we used to go out with his friends, I sort of waited afterwards for the tirade to begin. That was what I was used to from my mother, and just thought it was normal.

I have long term anxiety too. I actively avoid social situations and environs, have zero self-worth and self-esteem as a result that impacts the anxiety. It's a nasty cycle.

Sosidges steve, I have quite a lot of social anxiety too. I learned to fake it when I was young, but I've never been really comfortable with other people. I think our fight or flight response to other people is hair-trigger sensitive, and we're hypervigilant for signs that people aren't happy with us, because we had to be, to survive, as children.

I also think the gaslighting, and the stupid invented drama that they drum up daily in order to have something to bully us over - all that shit makes us really unsure about our interactions with people, how we're coming across, whether they like us or not.

It's funny but since I started therapy I've become more scially anxious in a way, but I think it's more that my real feelings are coming to the front. I'm so used to stuffing them down and getting on with it, all those sort of ups and downs replaced by a grim constancy of "this is shit, but I'll survive".

I'm fighting agoraphobia (mild) still. Gets me when I least expect it. On my way to things I am addicted to like swimming

Makes me feel sick.

-"although this was due to the trauma of the abusive ex. Family knew about my struggles, but ignored them . No help or support then, or ever.

My boyfriend has said I'm "still so angry" about my mother moving away, ignoring me when depressed (suicidal), later in abusive relationship and trying to get out, yada yadda hurting my son, etc etc

I've just realised that she lied to justify totally dropping me when he abuse came to light. Proper gaslighted..

I've done therapy, I know it's "then" not me, I am nc, and just waiting for them to die.

I don't think I'm particularly angry, but I am sad, upset and hurt. Even if I were angry, that's ok isn't it? I'm entitled to be angry when I think of it?

I'm feeling ok in myself, yes it's sad and hurts when I talk about it, because I still can't believe it's happened, but I'm ok aren't I? I don't need more help do I?

Am I wrong that I want someone to tell me it's ok to be angry and that I didn't deserve it,

I think my counsellor might have even said it, I know people here say it, but none of it ever goes in to make things feel better.

What to do?

About time I opened up the Stately Homes Christmas Guest Wing again... this is the season for toxic families, a thread specifically for new guests always goes down a treat this time of year xx

Hissy all your feelings are acceptable - hurt, angry, sad, upset. I mean that both in the sense that you can't stop yourself from feeling emotions, so tall emotions are acceptable - but also that in similar circumstances most people would feel the same as you.

IDK if this will ring any bells with you but when I started therapy I had a good handle on the fact that my mother's behaviour was abusive and I was NC so I wasn't being abused at the time. I went to therapy not to gain insight into my upbringing but to see if I could retrain my brain - to feel less guilt and shame, less uncertainty around other people, to be less stressed, and to (hopefully) be able to rely less on my unhealthy stress-relieving habits (nail biting, overeating) and to be able to cope better with the stress of looking after small kids. It sounds like you might benefit from something similar? You have insight into the abuse, but you are left with its effects?

And yes I think it's a very good idea to open up the Stately Homes Christmas Guest Wing again... AIBU's already full of the "AIBU to fake my own death so MIL/mother doesn't invite herself over and ruin everyone's Christmas again" threads...

Hissy

re your comment:-
"Am I wrong that I want someone to tell me it's ok to be angry and that I didn't deserve it"

Absolutely not. I also think that all your feelings are perfectly acceptable and should be properly validated.

I also think the Christmas Guest Wing of the Stately Home should indeed be opened up again. The need is certainly there.

(Will be on holiday this year over the Christmas period so will also contact you in January. MIL was here for a couple of hours last Christmas and that was more than enough time!)

One thing I don't think therapy or self help can do is give you back what you lost and what is every child's right. That is a safe childhood. Many of us were so brainwashed and had so little experience of how families were supposed to work that we thought our lives were normal. Once I became an adult and saw a different type of family I had a great realisation of what I had lost.

I know that those on the adoption site talk about how difficult it is for children who have had even a short period of neglect to adjust. When children's brains are forming, I suppose they are like putty and can be manipulated into a feeling of worthlessness and being unlovable. I expect that why so many of us suffer with anxiety.

oooh, Atilla are we having a whole separate thread to do with weird family holiday shit? I could have filled one already? I would like to live blog my Christmas with dysfunctional ILs after people in my therapy group suggested it should be a sitcom.

Sosidges that is so true. I think a lot of us reach a stage where we are dealing with this shit in our late 20s (it is quite common apparently) when we realise that our poor relationship with our parents can't be blamed on us being awkward, horrible teenagers any more, and perhaps it isn't just us....

However, as Lily said on the last page it is very hard to discuss your grievances about your family with people from normal, happy families as they can actually be very dismissive and minimising in a pretty hurtful way. And it is hurtful as you have spent your whole life being dismissed and minimised in someway.

I do wish mentally healthy normal people were expected to realise this, as the taboo nature of dysfunctional and abusive families makes the whole situation so much worse.

I need some advice. I've written about aspects of this before but I will give a quick back story.

Mum is very passive aggresive, critical, short tempered etc I think she falls somewhere on the spectrum of vulnerable narcissism.
She used to very critical of my Dad and when he died transferred the distain she had for him onto me. During a visit I reached the end of my tether and left with my kids without saying anything. Not the best thing to do but I didn't want my kids to experience one of her tantrums.

I was planning on emailing her but she covered her arse by telling my siblings that she couldn't understand why I had gone and I must be very depressed. I must admit that irritated me and I didn't bother contacting her again. I feel childish but its been quite nice! Through the grape vine I've heard that she still explains it as me having the problem, "she will never see it" was what one sister said.

She hasn't tried any meaningful contact with me at all, such as ask what is wrong, or if I am depressed. She has copied me in group emails and asked a couple of short practical queston that have required a answer, I gave very short factual answers. Last week she sent me a direct email and copied my husband in, asking for a general update, bright breezy update from her,. Then a question to my husband and one about one of my kids, the one she deemed to be the golden child on our last few visits. How do I respond? Do I respond? She is clearly avoiding the real issue, she may have convinced herself that I am the problem but deep-down part of her knows. No one has ever stood up to my Mum or defended themselves and she can't handle being thought of as less than perfect.

If I do say something I want to keep it focused around since Dad died you seem to be projecting your feelings onto me and others. Rather than get embroiled in childhoods or previous decades. I haven't missed any contact with her, something broke when she started to look at me with such sneers. I no longer feel the need to placate her, or impress her, or get her approval That's a good feeling but I don't want to cause her unnecessary distress.

The problem with passive agressive pepole is that it's hard to pin anything on them. They have already covered their arse by playing the victim.

For me, the bright and breezy, the copying your dh in and the "situation normal" is very familiar

It means you're supposed to stfu and never question her on anything..

I'd advise doing nothing, if that's what makes your life better

Hissy, thanks.

Yup, the bright and breezy is shut up and move on. Plus she gets to retain her reasoning of poor Hultra, she is soo sensitive and soo depressed but I have kept on offering her things and kept on trying to include her. Now she has come around, I am such a great considerate mother. My husband laughs when I tell him what she thinks of me. My siblings understand too but we are all scattered around the world.

If I confront her then I will be a controlling bitch. None of us know what to do with her, she has pissed off all my sil's but she has no idea why. She is too consumed with her own childhood hurts to figure it out.
It would be nice to get back to how we were, pleasant enough and she loved my kids when they were little. Can't see how that will happen if she can't admit to being less than perfect after my dad's death.

Well she won't be admitting that! I so understand about not wishing to spell out her shortcomings but equally very important to safeguard your own happiness.

Hudra, I totally understand the threat of 'if you confront me and speak the truth I will make out you are mad'. It's how they control you!