"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Ncpg, have you and your sibling approached any survivors' groups? Maybe you could get some support there. There can be lots of reasons for memory gaps. I wish I had something more helpful to say. In terms of managing the right now, taking pleasure in little things helps if you can. A good cup of coffee, a lovely scent, beautiful flower... I know it sounds twee and sometimes I just can't do it, but when I can, it helps.

Does anyone know if there is a name for this behaviour/tactic that my narcissistic mum is using? When I can name a behaviour (e.g. scapegoating or projection) it allows me to research it, understand why it's wrong, and put in place some boundaries. At the moment I just feel upset and hypocritical and don't know what to say in my defence.

This is the behaviour:

If I tell her I want her to stop doing something or criticise her in anyway she says something like 'you'll understand when you're a parent' , ' of course you'll be the perfect parent won't you (laughing). We'll just see about that...' 'you'll do exactly the same when your kids are older', 'you'll probably have a difficult child too. Then you'll see' (I'm the 'difficult' child). 'There are lots of things you don't know and understand. One day you'll see (laughing at my naivety)'

The message seems to be: you will grow up to be surrounded by horrible circumstances and difficult children and then you will behave just like I do and what a hypocrite you are telling me I'm wrong when you don't know you won't do it too. She implies I'm very naive to think I will be a more sensitive parent. She thinks it's very funny that I will have all these terrible things happen to me too. I'm finding I'm on edge now as I start my own family because this is where I'm suddenly meant to find myself in hellish circumstances and become a horrible person.

Does anyone have any tips on how best to react to this? Or name this tactic so I can research a bit more and prepare to put a boundary in place? Thanks for your help!!

You have her message correctly PebbleBlue. Fortunately you will not behave like your mother has done because you unlike her are not a narcissist. You have empathy; a quality your mother simply does not have.

She will ride roughshod over any boundary you care to set her; I would continue to further lower all forms of contact you currently have with her.

Do keep her well away from any children you go on to have, do not establish their relationship. She was not a good parent to you and narcissistic grandparents are deplorably bad grandparent figures. They will and do set out to steal the hearts and minds of their grandchildren and will emotionally harm them in not too dissimilar ways as you were (and still are) treated.

"Passive aggressive cow" maybe?

My mum did/does this too. It put me off having kids and is why we put off ttc'ing for too long. A bit of me blames her for our lack of success.

Nothing you say or do will change her sadly. All you can do is work on your own defences. She's the difficult one, not you.

Thanks pklme. I've been trying to answer but my tablet is acting up. The shame of what DF did is overwhelming, he used to say that since all my siblings were married then he and I could team up together. To know he saw me in that light terrifies and revolts me, as does the prospect of it being part of the case, I can't bear people knowing that about me or seeing my father in that light. Bless DH, he's told me to sleep this afternoon, my joints are terribly heavy and sore. DCs are at school so at least I'll have a bit of headspace. I'm not really physically well enough to go to any formal counselling, but I've discovered the trauma recoveru university on YouTube, it's been hugely helpful.
I need someone to verify this for me, did my DF abuse me? I know I was an adult but I was trapped, I was homeless at the time with 2 young children and undergoing a messy divorce. Because of the situation with my ex, I couldn't go and get any of my clothes and I had nothing. DF gave me a nightdress set which had belonged to my mother but it was a very romantic pretty outfit and I had to wear it to please him, otherwise I risked upsetting him and he could be very spiteful and abusive. My head is screwed. I was only 24 at the time and I had faced repeated abuse for years. I have had this situation dissected by those who abused me and other enablers in the family. Can somebody please tell me objectively, did my father sexually abuse me? He saw it as a relationship.

Pulya, have you ever talked to a GP or counsellor in real life? It sounds like you could do with some help right now and you're in a crisis point.

pulya Reading about what your father did to you is making me sick to the stomach. Yes he absolutely did sexually abuse you. Please believe that. I'm so sorry .

And as other posters have said, please, please get help for this in real life - there's excellent help out there. You sound in a very dark place, but it can get better. You absolutely deserve for it to get better. Please hold on to that thought.

You're not alone

I was referred to someone but they just said to focus on my coping strategies and hobbies. I try to plan things but I can't do it. I buy things to do with the children and I can't see it through. I need to wash before I sleep. I'm menstruating and I smell, but I don't really care. I'm only washing out of manners. I've no desire to do anything for myself, I detest myself. It's no example to dc if I'm dirty and disheveled and I feel that is how I should be after betraying my father.
Thanks for answering Klassy. Do you think my father sexually abused me? I need to hear it from somewhere, everyone rationalized whst happened as being part of the 'relationship' with my father :(

Thank you so much greenleaf. Perhaps I can start being kinder to myself about it now.

Greenleaf, thanks for telling me how it made you feel reading my post, I feel validated now.

Yes - I'm so sorry, he did.

Would you ever do that to your children? Of course not. He's a total total shit.

I'm sorry you didn't get help before. I think it sounds like talking therapy would benefit you but sadly it's not offered on the NHS. What about the Samaritans? They'd listen anytime.

Pulya, it absolutely was abusive. You weren't a child at that point, but you were dependent on him. And parents always have power over their children of any age, it's one reason why they must not behave sexually towards them.

I'm so sorry for what you've been through. Your posts have nearly made me cry and I think you must be so strong to have got through all that and have such love for your children. I admire you immensely.

I agree with others that it sounds like you're having a really tough time at the moment and need some help. Can you talk to your GP about how you're feeling?

pulya You didn't betray your father. He betrayed you - on a massive scale. That's not a "relationship" (ugh) you had - it was deeply abusive. Who told you that was in any way normal?

It sounds like the counsellor you were referred to before had no real understanding of the trauma you've lived through. Sadly many of them don't, and can do more harm than good. But many others do, and that counselling can be life changing. You say you're not well enough to attend sessions regularly, but many counsellors offer phone or Skype sessions you could do from home. Would that help? It sounds like your DH is kind and supportive which is wonderful, but no more than you deserve.

Please speak to someone in real life. When things feel this dark for you the Samaritans can be so helpful too, even just to know someone else is on your side.

Wishing you strength

Pulya. It also sounds like you might be clinically depressed, and no wonder. Please talk to your GP. I'm on citralopram myself and it's early days but I'm crossing my fingers it'll help.

I will try to get an appointment with the GP tomorrow, I need to rest today. Thanks justa and klassy, I feel that since I have to stay alive for my children I may as well do my best by them and try to enjoy them into the bargain. They are here because of me, but I've stayed alive because of them. They keep me together.
Thanks for the feedback about whether or not it was abusive. It feels to me like it's on a continuum with Josef Fritzl, only I was forced to be the happy, nurturing daughter when my siblings visited, which made me ill and act like his spouse the rest of the time. I still have nightmares that I'm trapped in that house with him, which was like a mansion, with everyone saying how lucky I was to be living there. In essence, it was the perfect storm and the family just thought he was looking after me as I was physically ill and mentally unstable. I was traumatized. The guilt was overwhelming. DB rang me after I'd told my sister, he rang me asking who I was going to accuse next and that I'd been with my 'Daddy' for years and let him take care of me and the children. He said Daddy in such a disgusting, leery way that I will never forget it.
Thanks so much for your support. My painkillers are kicking in and I need to sleep for a while

I take fluoxetine 40 mg every morning. It gives me enough of a kick to do my morning jobs, but then it wears off. I've tried increasing them but they make me very grumpy. I will talk to my GP tomorrow. Thanks again everyone.

Pulya I've just read your previous posts. It sounds very clear to me that he did sexually abuse you. Initially I only read your 11:45 today and it was already obvious that your DF was crossing boundaries by a long long way. Now I've read your other posts it's clear it was sexual abuse. I don't have any experience or advice to offer but i hope you find a way to see & respect yourself for the beautiful wonderful person that you obviously are. I can tell from your posts and the mention of your DC that you have a beautiful heart and you are a wonderful mother so don't let anyone make you feel like your not. I think the advice other gave on getting some support sounds like good advice. Take time to care for yourself

Thanks Atilla I've been trying to reduce contact but she noticed and I made the mistake of telling her why which seems to have made her behaviour far worse and she's been fairly persistent in trying to make contact. I've managed to keep contact to a minimum (although it's still very unpleasant when we do have contact) as she trying every old trick in the book (scapegoating, blaming other people, some mythical family issues that I don't know about and couldn't possibly understand). You're right about my kids. I need to think carefully about how & if she has contact. I need to be careful for their sakes.

Pulya, sorry I haven't been back. I'm glad other people were here to reassure you. He abused you, he coerced you, he took advantage of your vulnerability. He exerted his power over you, and used it to get what he wanted for himself. He was greedy and selfish. I'm sorry, this should never have happened to you.

Pebble my DM does similar. When I try to support her/redirect her rant, encourage her to be positive "you can't understand until it happens to you". It is happening to me. I am there, alongside her, picking up the pieces. Hello, can anyone see me?

One of my relatives saw my DM acting up recently. She was shocked. It is our normal so I was quite surprised. It's constant criticism, nothing ever being enough, no one's feelings are relevant except hers. She isn't like it all the time, but whenever she is stressed. If you do something to help, you have done it wrong (bought wrong brand etc).
It's nothing like other people's experiences on here, but it is very wearing and because of a family emergency I am going to have to spend a lot of time with her. I will feel as though my identity is being stripped minute by minute. She controls food, as well, so I will wobble off my attempt to stay balanced.
I'm dreading it. She is a force for chaos...

Just a vent really about my mother. She has narc traits and I am seeing a counsellor about the way she has behaved through my life but she has done something this week that has left me so frustrated.
My stepfathers mother has been seriously ill and sadly passed away this week. My DM and DSF have been divorced for 20 years and it was very acrimonious on the part of my DM. So much so that she banned me from having anything to do with him or his family (including his mother who had been like a grandmother to me).
Anyway a few months ago as I came to the realisation my DM was not a normal loving mother I made contact with my DSF and DSGM again and have been in regular contact. When it became clear my DSGM was dying my DM decided that she would visit her in the hospital (despite having no interest in this woman at all in the last 20 years), because I live far away she has been keeping me 'updated' with long sad emails and tearful phone calls on my DSGM decline. Unfortunately my DSF was also away this week and did not get back in time for his mothers passing so my DM has revelled in the fact she was able to visit (she wouldnt have dared I dont think if DSF had been around).
When DSGM passed away yesterday I had heard by text from my brother (who is a half brother so it was his full grandmother) but my DM tried to ring me 3 times in the space of an hour no doubt to be all weepy and emotional. I cant bear it. She is thoroughly enjoying the drama and I cant believe the lack of decency that she thinks its ok to visit a woman she had no interest in just to enjoy being part of her death. Its so awful, yet there is nothing I can do about it and I cant say anything because if I did she would just act all hurt and say she was only trying to help and that she had been very fond of my DSGM! Somehow she always looks like she is some kind of caring angel when I know for a fact she is bloody loving the drama and actually couldnt care less about the person who died. Aaarrgh! How has she made the sad death of a lovely kind woman about her? How has she made it so that is what I am focusing on?!?
Sorry about the ramble just needed to get it out there to people who might understand

pklme I've looked a few times with a view to attend surviors groups but most seem be aimed at sexual abuse and I don't know that any occurred with me so would feel like a fraud.

I also got through points of thinking that my abuse wasn't that bad or as bad as others because we didn't get beat up every day and we did have bare essentials like a roof over our head, food etc. Also I know we were beat frequently I have vivid memories of some of it whilst others are grabled and I don't know if they are real or not and some I only know about because other witnessed it and have told me about it.

My parents deny they happened and minimise and I'm just not sure what's real or not and feel utter silly and being honest I feel ashamed. I have no idea why I feel ashamed but I do as if I can't speak about it in real life and if I owe something to my parents to not mention it.

My sibling seems to be in the same boat it doesn't help that it seems to be my mother's mission to turn my sibling and I against each other.

Christmas is one of my favourite times of the year and the first year my toddler really has any concept so I've been taking lots of pleasure and distraction in making our own traditions with DH. It was the birth of my child and my sibling having children that's triggered most of the memory floods and prompted us to talk about our childhood. Before it was the elephant in the room sadly now that box is open its impossible to close it again

Pebble my dad and MIL are both like this to the extreme. But I don't think my dad is a narc and he certainly doesn't lack empathy. Well maybe sometimes but other times he has a lot of it so I find him difficult to categorize and deal with. It does make me frightened for having children though too as you discussed. I don't want to be a parent exactly like my parents.

tootired So sorry to hear about your DSGM passing . And sorry to hear about your DM's behaviour. She sounds just like my MIL who acts as you describe when there are deaths in DH's family. It's awful. All I can think of really is to just try and ignore her. Because like you said this isn't about her, in fact it's basically got nothing to do with her whatsoever! She's not a relative, not a friend, nothing to your DSGM. Don't answer her phone calls (as you've been doing). You may well need to grieve but your DM's behaviour is not your problem. Also if you stop answering her phonecalls eventually she will probably give up?

Rested and showered. Feel much better, popping out to get some Xmassy things with the children tonight while DH is out. Massive thanks for the support, feeling loads better :)

Hope you're all safe and peaceful tonight. The dcs are in bed and the quietness has come back. Nice evening with the children though, at least I've accomplished something. Sorry for all those feeling distressed. Does anyone here ever feel their family has purposefully screwed them over in revenge for their existence?
My earliest memories are of walking into rooms where my elder dbs were playing and them shouting at me to get out, that they hated me and I wasn't wanted. My dm resented me too as df favoured me, I often feel she chucked me to the wolves. When I asked her for help she would simply say that I was too sensitive, it was the survival of the fittest and the weak ones went to the wall. Sometimes it makes me feel that I'm in a bad way because I must be weak. It's as though they've enacted a terrible revenge on me for my very presence.

Anyway, the validation earlier was massive, I really am grateful. DM always said I could wrap my DF around my little finger, she slapped me full in the face in the street when I was 15 for walking with my DF, he was holding my hand and letting me smoke. DM said I was trying to take over her role, I was absolutely horrified. Just needed to get these things out :(