My brother doesn't give me what I want

[KellysZeros]

I wanted to post that my brother doesn't love me, but I'm sure he does, but he is incapable of showing it. I recently got married, and he didn't come. I do sort of understand why (it would have involved some travel and an overnight stay), but to me, it's what you do for a sibling. I recently attending his wedding (and had to travel). However, he didn't show any enthusiasm at all. He sent me a plain card with little text. It got me thinking he never, and I really mean never asks me about my life. Where I live, what I do, nothing. I think there is some strange family dynamics where when he was younger he was a bit jealous of me.

I don't think he can change, but I find it so upsetting. What can I do?

Thanks a lot for the advice. There has been a lot of good advice. There have been a number of misinterpretations in the thread and it's been interesting to see and reflect on how people can misunderstand me, but I'm not going to hold that against anyone.

There has been a lot of useful advice and as I said before, I'm going to speak to my brother, but I may have to accept that for whatever reason (he's unhappy, I'm a horrible person) he doesn't want a close relationship with me.

You are just being goady now, I think, persisting in talking about the very many people who 'misunderstand' you. Very generous of you not to hold it against them.

Christ almighty.

not going to hold it against anyone

Aww shucks, aren't you kind hearted

Both of you are still stuck in the roles that your parents gave you, your posts are full of "I want" whilst deflecting the blame on your brother, Your brother has distanced himself from you, yet is still desperately seeking the approval of his (your) parents.

Unless both of you can break out of these roles it will never work.

• you keep saying that the thread title has been "misinterpreted". you don't seem to understand that it isn't that posters don't properly understand what you mean, but that you don't understand how self centred your way of expressing it is.

• you suggested changing it to something by replacing "I want" with "I would like". This is meaningless. It is still centring you utterly and putting your brother in a satellite position. Why didn't you say "I wish my brother and I were closer"? or even " and what could i do about it?"; or even - "I don't seem to be able to give my brother what he would perhaps like from our relationship"?

• You have a verbal habit that I recognise from someone that I know, which is you use the same words again and again. You repeatedly talk about your brother being "difficult" - for a long time it is almost the only word you use about him. Then you add "angry". For yourself you say "happy, confident," several times. When challenged you repeat your "story". this calcification of words comes, i think, from a calcification of ideas. I think you tell yourself stories about things, again and again, and I think you are very invested in not letting go of them. These images of the "difficult" boy and the "happy, confident' girl don't feel off the cuff; they have a sort of laminated quality, well-rehearsed and polished.

Do you think you do that?

Now I think you're just doing it deliberately.

Maudlin, thanks, but I don't think I do it. Interesting way to think about though and it makes me think.

I really give up now. Im not open to this discussion any more and I don't think it is serving one well. I'll read it again when I'm less exasperated

OP "Im not open to this discussion any more"

I don't think you ever were.

Good night

OP, if you want to have a good relationship with your brother, it would be a good idea to try to look at things from his perspective. You say you know him, so you should have a good idea of how he sees things. Remember that anger doesn't just come from nowhere, there's always a reason for it. Can you get to the root of it?

And remember that you cannot change anyone else's behaviour, only your own. Is there anything you can do to foster a better relationship with him? Can you change your responses to his behaviour in a way that might benefit both of you?

Talk to him, but more importantly, LISTEN to him without judgment.

In dysfunctional families (aka most families btw) there is a family narrative. Family members are wedded to this narrative , it is the air they breath, their reality.

The family narrative about your brother - also about you btw - is very clear from your posts: he is 'difficult'. Does he spoil what would otherwise be a happy family? The fly in the ointment, never satisfied, causing low level trouble. 'We are a great family, why can't he see that!'

Some families can then feel they are being kindly and accepting by saying to themselves 'aw poor Roger. He's never been happy. We so wish he could be happy!' and the family can actually ache for Poor Roger.

Chances are, Poor Roger is unhappy/dissatisfied because the family dynamic is cracked (and he'd know, because he's on the end of it). Those on the good end of the crackedness don't notice it and are enormously invested in not disturbing it - because it suits them and the good end as absolute reality.

Much easier to blame, point the finger, even kindly, at Poor Roger. Who is never satisfied and can't see a good thing when it's staring him in the face. Except maybe it's not as good as you all think - and he may be the evidence that it's not as good as you all think.

I'm not blaming you - you are all products of the same dynamic (not necessarily narcissistic btw - just common or garden flawed people). But I would ask you to at least suspend your views about him and the family in general: that it may be that the family isn't as good as you think.

I'm not talking about surface faults but a narrative that runs through your family that is deeply embedded in the family consciousness. You allude to this dynamic throughout each post by the language you use.

That, or maybe you'll have a stint somewhere in your life where you are labelled the difficult one, the one who spoils a good thing, the one who is sad and damaged (the kindly people want to help you). You'd get it then.

*because it suits them and they view the good end as absolute reality.

I posted way, way up the thread but I will repost in the hope that a good nights sleep will give you perspective.

You seem completely bogged down in the childhood dynamic of you are the correct golden child and he is the damaged faulty sibling. This may or may not be true, but as long as you approach the relationship with the attitude that he has to change to meet your emotional needs you are doomed to fail. How he is seems to be working for him, he seems contented and comfortable with his life choices and has no need to change that. You are the one who is discontented with the status quo.

You seem to think this we ate picking on you but no-one on this forum knows anything about you beyond what you have chosen to share with us. The fact that so many strangers have read what you chose to write and are saying alter your own behaviour could be an important message for you. Which you can think about or ignore as you choose.

I have revisited this this morning because MN have had a look and clearly decided that the OP is not just deliberately winding people up for the fun of it. And your lack of self awareness, Kelly is quite staggering!

I think that part of the issue for the OP on this thread is that the Narcissistic label has been wheeled out. That's actually quite a specific diagnosis with a specific set of diagnostic criteria and I wouldn't be happy at having it levelled at me by a group of strangers who were judging me on a few internet posts. And I'd probably argue against it too (Well I know I would).

However, self centred, selfish, ego centric, closed minded, self absorbed, arrogant... these are all descriptions of how you have come across in your posts, Kelly.

And the most infuriating thing for other people is that you have said things like, "And again, I don't see it is as narcissistic to want my brother to be happy, quite the opposite". Taking the label of 'narcissistic' away for a moment, because I don't like the way that term gets bandied about so freely, it's somewhat ironic that your defence against the accusation that this is all about what you want is for you to restate what you want. He might not be 'happy' by your standards, but he is clearly content by his. Whether you agree with that or not. And even if he isn't, it's arrogant of you to think you can speak to him and solve it for him. It's not about you.

Springy's summary of how the dynamic is perpetuated and justified, and of how family narratives get written and supported and how everything that happens is interpreted in a way that supports it is spot on.

You are still insistent that pretty much every single person on this thread has misunderstood or misinterpreted what you have said.

I think that you do need to consider the following:

MN readers/posters are made up of a diverse group of people of, differing experiences, differing socio-economic and education backgrounds, of differing levels of intellect, of differing expectations in terms of family, differing degrees of social understanding... etc... yet you feel that every single one of those people has 'misunderstood' or 'misinterpreted' what you are saying.

If everyone is 'misunderstanding' or 'misinterpreting' what you are saying/what you mean, then you might need to consider that it is your style of communication that is at fault, not every single other person's inference and deduction.

If you come across to your brother the way you have presented yourself on here, then I am not surprised he isn't really interested in you and your life. You sound like very hard work and he probably just can't be arsed.

He sends you pictures of his daughter because a) he is proud of her and b) he gets that sending pictures is something you want to do. He replied to your photos of your wedding, but wasn't quite as gushing as you wanted him to be.

Your judgement of him is startling.

Just get over yourself.

Thanks, I'm calmer now. I think it's incredibly unfair to say I'm arrogant, lack self-awareness when you don't know more at all. In my very first post, I acknowledge there is some strange family dynamics but I did get pissed off with the idea that I or my parents are narcissists and that's a very unfair label (which you acknowledge).

I also think I'm perfectly well placed to say that some people on this thread misinterpreted my meaning in the thread title, which I then had to explain several times. I don't see anything inherently wrong in saying that I want a close relationship with my brother. The fact he doesn't "give" it to me says nothing about whether he wants to, whether he can, whether the dynamics are fine or messed up. Because many have misintrepeted this, and I've denied it, it doesn't make me arrogant, self-centred or lacking in self-awareness.

I admit I got a bit hot under the collar being accused of being a troll, arrogant and a narcissist from people who don't know me, and it was obvious that a narrative formed.

Several have suggested my brother keeps a distance from me. However what is strange to me is that he will send me loads of messages and pictures of his children (not the actions of someone who doesn't want me in his life) but will acknowledge almost nothing in my life.

I also suggested he might be jealous of me because I went to University and I was accused of being snobby, as if I were saying he should be jealous of me (which I don't believe at all).

I will try to speak to him, but as someone who knows him, I suspect (and again I can say this) he will not respond, or get angry. I may just have to accept.

There is a lot of good advice on the thread, and I will read it. I did myself have some counselling before, and one thing my counsellor said is I didn't have to accept everything he suggested (and to see which bits ring true)

I think it's incredibly unfair to say I'm arrogant, lack self-awareness when you don't know more at all

I completely understand that you feel like this, but if you read what I said again, I didn't say that you are these things, but that they would accurately describe how you have come across in your posts. Because it is. It might not be how you are in real life, but it is most definitely how you have come across on here.

This is exactly the communication issue that I, and others, have alluded to. It must be incredibly exasperating to communicate with you in real life.

I hope you find something in the advice here that will help you to either accept the situation, or move forward with your brother.

Kelly - you say ...it doesn't make me arrogant, self-centred or lacking in self-awareness. but what you don't seem to be understanding is that actually to the rest of society - yes it does! Unless you want to re-define 'arrogance', 'self-centred' etc for the whole of western society.

If I say the grass is pink and the sky is yellow with green spots doesn't make it so.

Do you have children?

Because, if not, him sending you photos of him might be him trying to show you what is important to him. Maybe a degree wasn't. And fancy holidays aren't. And travelling doesn't interest him. Maybe he views your fancier wedding as unnecessary. Maybe his family is what is important to him and maybe he shares these things with you because he's hoping you'll get it at some point.

Who knows.

I also suggested he might be jealous of me because I went to University and I was accused of being snobby, as if I were saying he should be jealous of me

Why didn't he go to university?

OP Seriously you sound like hard work. If you want to speak to him but think he will get angry then save you and him the hassle and just keep contact low key. You do come across as needy and self absorbed.

Out of curiosity, Kelly, which bits of advice did you find helpful on this thread?

Several times now you've mentioned all the helpful advice before launching into your habitual defence about how everyone keeps on misinterpreting you and misunderstanding you.

You are not in a position to determine your own self-awareness - nobody can judge this about themselves. That's not how it works. So many people have told you how you come across, and you keep insisting that everyone has got it wrong - and furthermore it is unfair and mean-spirited of people to have these perceptions of you that you don't agree with.

Unfortunately you don't get to dictate how others feel about you or how you come across. You do not get to control others' emotional responses to you, or pronounce on which of these are right or wrong. I think this is part of the problem here - with your brother as well. You seem to deny anyone's right to perceive you differently from how you would like to be perceived, and you are relentless in your efforts to correct their faulty thinking and bring them into line.

You don't feel your brother keeps his distance from you, because he's constantly in touch. Well that's great. If he's not keeping his distance, then I guess he's close, right? Problem solved. What's this thread been about then? Oh yes, he's not interested enough in your life, he's not happy enough for you, he doesn't respond enthusiastically enough to your wedding pictures, he didn't write enough in your card, he didn't have a good enough excuse not to be at your wedding.

It's not wrong to want a reciprocal relationship with your brother; but you either need to accept that you can't change him, or to look at your part in the dynamic, and consider whether you might be coming across in a way that makes him want to resist giving you the gratification of asking about your life and 'being happy for you' - which is what you have repeatedly stated you 'want' from him that he won't 'give'. It's possible he knows just how much you want it, and withholding this validation is one bit of power he feels he has in the family.

I'm amazed that people are still bothering to post on this thread. I admire your persistence, but there's no point!

I'm confused at the idea he'll get angry. Anger is quite a powerful emotion. If your not close I doubt he cares enough to get angry. Unless his distance is cover for deep hurt he feels at the family dynamics. But then OP keeps insisting the family are so lovely and that can't be the case.

None of this adds up. But it doesn't matter because I don't think OP wanted to hear any of this. She appears to have wanted a group of strangers to say how terrible it is for her not having a close sibling, oh dear, how difficult.

But she's not self-absorbed you know...

Out of curiosity, Kelly, which bits of advice did you find helpful on this thread?

That I need to seriously consider the dynamics of our relationship and our family, and that also it may well be that he doesn't want to change or can change.

I feel I can't win here. Much of this thread has become about me - about how difficult I am, about how self-absorbed I must be for not agreeing with aspects. Because the thread has become about me, I've found myself having to defend myself and because I'm doing that, I'm self absorbed.

To answer one question, I don't have children.

Because, if not, him sending you photos of him might be him trying to show you what is important to him.

I understand that, and I've never had a problem with it. My problem was that he took no reciprocal interest in my life. It's very exasperating to have long conversations about his life, yet when you say you've just got married, you get nothing back. I don't think that makes me self absor bed

I'm confused at the idea he'll get angry. Anger is quite a powerful emotion. If your not close I doubt he cares enough to get angry. Unless his distance is cover for deep hurt he feels at the family dynamics. But then OP keeps insisting the family are so lovely and that can't be the case.

I don't see it confusing at all. As someone who knows my brother who rants on twitter about how the world is unfair, how who has had to face his rages in the past about how he hated school, how people who went to university are arrogant, then I know he is an angry person.

But it's perfectly feasible that my parents are lovely, but I don't think they knew how to deal with a teenager that for some reason became very angry and detached.