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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

support thread for those of us having to 'co-parent' with a narc or very difficult exh

992 replies

besshope · 03/08/2016 07:58

Step this way...
May I start of with a great big ROAR of frustration at having spent many years having to co-parent with someone who (after he left me for OW) has gone out of his way to make my life as difficult as possible. I know there are many of us, so here's a space to share frustrations, tips and experiences.

OP posts:
PurpleThursday · 16/10/2016 01:20

Sorry for delay in update. It's been a very long day and I have now had a Wine or 3.

Pick up this morning went ok (I hid as is now my thing- I feel physically sick if I even hear lying wank face XH's voice) my DS was uneasy about going.

I had a physio session to go so didn't have my phone for an hour, when I saw it I had about 8 texts from DS and voicemails. He was asking me to collect him as unhappy there. I sat and thought, there didn't appear to be an emergency, DS is feeling very insecure around XH as he is the oldest and XH is displaying clear favouritism towards the youngest DCs and spending all energy & money on buying their affection prioritising them. My 12 yr old DS is far too much like hard work for him. My guy was telling me to grab kids out of there and run by I texted XH and asked what was happening: he claimed to have absolutely no knowledge of any problems. Of course I can't tell if he is lying/playing games or just generally unaware. I decided to send him a screen shot of all of DS's text messages saying 'please get me out of here, I hate it' etc. I think XH was shocked. He knows I can show all of these in court in a few weeks and it will not look good. I called DS, he was, I would say, confused. He was hiding in the (shared) bedroom on his iPad. He didn't want to tell XH his real feelings as he is scared of his reaction, but he didn't really know what he wanted - anxiety was ruling his day. He didn't have any serious concerns to raise only saying he felt uncomfortable and didn't want to talk to XH. I couldn't decide what to do for ages. I spoke to Nanny who agreed to have him stay the night so I got my long deserved and Awaited night off and offered that I could pick up DS and take him there. He declined. XH then got a small text bollocking from me that he was utterly unaware of DS's unhappiness etc. I let it sit a while. Disney Dad must have kicked in and DS texted me later to say that he felt OK and they had just all been to the cinema. My BF had booked tickets for us to see Bridget Jones tonight so I jumped right into that with Nanny as back up emergency babysitter. I have heard no more yet from DS/XH and honestly girls the film made me laugh and cry more than any has in a long time. Find a way to see it if you can.

PurpleThursday · 16/10/2016 01:21

Sorry my gut not my guy!!

Froginapan · 16/10/2016 08:07

Why do they do that? Twist things so much? It's infuriating.

Another thing that seems popular with them: deciding your thoughts and motives and no amount of explaining will convince them they are wrong.

Lilacpink40 · 16/10/2016 09:27

The parallels are really scary!

Yesterday reading Auser posts I was nodding away knowing it made sense.

Duster I have ex's skeletons in my closet and his wider family (who are normal) would be shocked. You have helped me think contacting school will be good option. I could do with independent support.

Purple the disney dad vs. can't be bothered dad matches my ex. One minute he tells them he's too busy and doesn't have any money, next he's dropping them back late and spending £30 on plastic toys!

Frog my ex describes a completely different person when he talks to others, and to me, about me. All twisted up. If you spoke with him you'd think he was a saint and I'm a witch.

mumwith3girls · 16/10/2016 10:18

Hi, I'd like to join the discussion. My ex left me 3 1/2 years ago and we've been divorced 2 years. He has done everything possible to make my life difficult during this time. He has blamed me for everything and won't take responsibility for anything at all. I realised after having support from a domestic abuse support charity that he is a narcissist. It is so difficult to co parent, which we have to do, I have 3 girls, 12, 9 and 5, so years of this to come. There are loads of issues and problems and I try to minimise any contact I have with him, but things are really getting on top of me st the moment.

donners312 · 16/10/2016 10:24

To be honest though engaging with them just doesn't work - they don't care what you think!

Can you get another member of your family or someone to act as a third party person to arrange everything through?

I've done that now (although in the end it was the police who told him as he wouldn't stop contacting me directly) and it is so much better as you don't have to have any contact with them if you don't want not even for the sake of the children. all pick ups etc through school or third party person.

so much better honestly (so far) although i am lucky because my ex doesn't very often see the children (twice this year) and just randomly rears his ugly head!!

greencarbluecar · 16/10/2016 10:30

Another thing that seems popular with them: deciding your thoughts and motives and no amount of explaining will convince them they are wrong

Oh yes this. Even in the face of glaring evidence. I used to get so upset and frustrated trying to put it right. Now I wouldn't say I've come to terms with it but I'm moving more to eye-rolling than trying to protest against it.

Purple it sounds like you handled that really well, it can't have been easy. This is yet another thing I think there isn't enough information out there about, how to deal with this when you're not 'co-parenting' with a reasonable person who puts their DC first. There's no way you're the only person faced with this (I can already see signs that I myself will have a similar scenario with DC not wanting to go for good reason). You've made some difficult decisions in a short space of time and with lots of strong emotions, it's wrong that you had to do it at all but it shows the quality of your parenting. So glad you had a good night.

I also have Disney dad vs can't be bothered dad

Ausernotanumber · 16/10/2016 10:30

It really doesn't work to engage with them. Ever.

Ausernotanumber · 16/10/2016 10:36

This is from Lundy Bancroft.

THE WATER TORTURER [Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That?]

The Water Torturer's style proves that anger doesn't cause abuse. He can assault his partner psychologically without even raising his voice. He tends to stay calm in arguments, using his own evenness as a weapon to push her over the edge. He often has a superior or contemptuous grin on his face, smug and self-assured. He uses a repertoire of aggressive conversational tactics at low volume, including sarcasm, derision—such as openly laughing at her—mimicking her voice, and cruel, cutting remarks. Like Mr. Right, he tends to take things she has said and twist them beyond recognition to make her appear absurd, perhaps especially in front of other people. He gets to his partner through a slow but steady stream of low-level emotional assaults, and perhaps occasional shoves or other minor acts of violence that don't generally cause visible injury but may do great psychological harm. He is relentless in his quiet derision and meanness.

The impact on a woman of all these subtle tactics is that either her blood temperature rises to a boil or she feels stupid and inferior, or some combination of the two. In an argument, she may end up yelling in frustration, leaving the room crying, or sinking into silence. The Water Torturer then says, See, you're the abusive one, not me. You're the one who's yelling and refusing to talk things out rationally. I wasn't even raising my voice. It's impossible to reason with you.

The psychological effects of living with the Water Torturer can be severe. His tactics can be difficult to identify, so they sink in deeply. Women can find it difficult not to blame themselves for their reactions to what their partner does if they don't even know what to call it. When someone slaps you in the face, you know you've been slapped. But when a woman feels psychologically assaulted, with little idea why, after an argument with The Water Torturer, she may turn her frustration inward. How do you seek support from a friend, for example, when you don't know how to describe what is going wrong?

The Water Torturer tends to genuinely believe that there is nothing unusual about his behavior. When his partner starts to confront him with his abusiveness—which she usually does sooner or later—he looks at her as if she were crazy and says, What the hell are you talking about? I've never done anything to you. Friends and relatives who have witnessed the couple's interactions may back him up. They shake their heads and say to each other, I don't know what goes on with her. She just explodes at him sometimes, and he's so low-key. Their children can develop the impression that Mom blows up over nothing. She herself may start to wonder if there is something psychologically wrong with her.

The Water Torturer is payback-oriented like most abusive men, but he may hide it better. If he is physically abusive, his violence may take the form of cold-hearted slaps for your own good or to get you to wake up rather than explosive rage. His moves appear carefully thought out, and he rarely makes obvious mistakes—such as letting his abusiveness show in public—that could turn other people against him or get him in legal trouble.

If you are involved with a Water Torturer, you may struggle for years trying to figure out what is happening. You may feel that you overreact to his behavior and that he isn't really so bad. But the effects of his control and contempt have crept up on you over the years. If you finally leave him, you may experience intense periods of delayed rage, as you become conscious of how quietly but deathly oppressive he was.

This style of man rarely lasts long in an abuser program unless he has a court order. He is so accustomed to having complete success with his tactics that he can't tolerate an environment where the counselors recognize and name his maneuvers and don't let him get away with them. He tends to rapidly decide that his group leaders are as crazy as his partner and heads for the door.

The central attitudes driving the Water Torturer are:

• You are crazy. You fly off the handle over nothing.

• I can easily convince other people that you're the one who is messed up.

• As long as I'm calm, you can't call anything I do abusive, no matter how cruel.

• I know exactly how to get under your skin.

Ausernotanumber · 16/10/2016 10:39

Apologies if that has already been linked.

greencarbluecar · 16/10/2016 10:40

^that is so accurate it brings me to tears still even though I've read it many times

Ausernotanumber · 16/10/2016 10:41

I know green. Me too.

greencarbluecar · 16/10/2016 10:55
Flowers
nicenewdusters · 16/10/2016 11:19

Purple so glad to see that the situation with your ds was brought under control - by you of course - and that it didn't end up like last time. Brilliant idea to screen shot your ds's text messages about his dad. Even a gas lighting narc would have trouble turning those into something about you - but they'd still have a good try no doubt! I also get the feeling sick at his voice thing. I now go to the back of the house so I can't see or hear.

mumwith3girls - welcome. There's a lot of discussion on here about accepting at some point that you can't co-parent with these men. I accepted this a couple of months ago. And I would now say you don't have to endlessly try to co-parent. Make them available for contact, that's it. All schools have websites, newsletters, he can make himself as informed as you are. If they do activities outside he can make himself familiar with timings, events etc. You can't clap with one hand.

Obviously there'll be the need for the odd text/email re arrangements for your girls. Your eldest is hopefully in a position to pass on non-controversial information, changes to timings etc. If he misses out on things because you and he have no contact, not your problem. I used to make sure my ex had a copy of the school photo, knew about dc's class assemblies, any outside events he was entitled to be at. Not any more. My dd told me the other day that dad might be coming to her upcoming show. I asked why only might? She said he'd said it depends. Again, I asked depends on what? She said I don't know. I raised my eyebrows and gave her a rueful look.

Ausernotanumber · 16/10/2016 11:23

Absolutely to the dint enable them. It is not up to you to make sure they know about school plays or events. They have to get themselves,on the list at the school and make sure they know.

I did this Blush I spent ages making sure I cc'd him every email and scanned every letter and emailed him. But that isn't my job. It's not appropriate for me to do that.

I got blasted for forgetting once and it was the last time I did it. I was doing it to help him. Or help the kids or because he had me conditioned that it was my job to enable his life to run smoothly.

It's not.

(And just to give you all depression. Just had a ranty text message asking why I "allowed" DD age 18 to dye her hair at the hairdresser. As if at 18 I have any say ...)

ItShouldHaveBeenJessMass · 16/10/2016 11:25

Auser Jesus. I don't think I've ever read anything that resonated quite so soundly with me. Thank you for sharing it.

Ausernotanumber · 16/10/2016 11:31

jess. I remember the first time I read it. It was late at night - the book had come in the post and I'd got the kids to bed before I started to read it. I had absolute chills the whole way through but that in particular really resonated with me. It is my ex to a T. And probably all the men referred to on this thread too.

greencarbluecar · 16/10/2016 11:35

Ugh YY to being conditioned to think it's your job to run everything for them. He told me after I left he still expected it of me as part of my role.

No. If he wants to know he can ask or find out for himself, arrogant misogynist. I'm not his secretary.

nicenewdusters · 16/10/2016 11:36

Auser : You don't need my advice as to what to reply to the text. But it just struck me that "Because I, like most other normal people, don't feel the need to try and control another adult".

Ausernotanumber · 16/10/2016 11:38

Ive just ignored it. 😀 Anyway. I like her hair. It's trendy. (Silver lilac streaks. I'd love it but apparently it would just make me look old she says )

greencarbluecar · 16/10/2016 12:03

Jess I have a similar story to auser in that I recognise my ex across different abuser profiles, and he did abuse me in lots of ways, but it's the psychological aspect that's done the most damage. I've even tried to make the same point as in the quote about the physical abuse being easier to understand because it's explicit, you can say he hurt me and other people understand why it's bad, but the subtle, hidden things, they're so much harder to overcome.

Current example - the new relationship I mentioned upthread I think has died. It's not officially so but new dp is being reticent about discussing relationship, I feel it's dying a death but not a lost cause. It's not the same as when ex used to ignore me not telling me why to get me running after him, but I don't know whether it's acceptable or not that he doesn't seem bothered about making it better (or is that he understands my difficulties with free time and doesn't feel it needs saying?). I have no proper reference for 'normal' behaviour now, I'm so messed up by what that mind twister did I can't remember how it's supposed to be.

greencarbluecar · 16/10/2016 12:05

auser clearly he has no concept of bodily autonomy. Suspect this is not news to you. Her hair sounds great!

donners312 · 16/10/2016 12:10

I just read this it is a very interesting article -blog.melanietoniaevans.com/hoovering-how-the-narcissist-tricks-you-into-breaking-no-contact/

The are totally hilarious how they expect us to organize everything like pp said we are not their secretary. My ex used to start sentences with "I expect.... I insist ... I demand" cracked me up. But not funny really.

PurpleThursday · 16/10/2016 12:15

The only problem with my screenshot idea was that I felt I was breaking my DS's trust.

I mean it worked in the sense that XH sat up and paid attention to him. And it showed him I have clear 'evidence' of DS unhappiness around him etc for court. But it feels a bit like I trusted him with private information from my DS and I betrayed DS by showing him. He could really destabilise DS if he tells him that I was sending photos of his texts behind his back. I don't know if he will tell him or how.

donners312 · 16/10/2016 12:31

you are trying to look after and protect your son. what else can you do - these men are so manipulative.