Can't afford Relate but MIL is offering to pay - WWYD?

[LazyCake]

DH and I have been having lots of problems, for a very long time. We recently started to receive counselling from Relate, but are really, really struggling to pay for the sessions, which take place every week and cost £65. The counselling has been helpful to a degree, it makes me feel calmer as I am no longer dealing with all the problems and worrying about the future on my own. DH says that he enjoys it (a bit odd, but good I suppose?!)

Anyway, our finances are in chaos, and any discussion of how things might be improved leads to long arguments that go nowhere. This has been going on for years, but has got worse recently. Today I am trying to work out how to feed DD until payday, which is ridiculous as DH is on a good salary. So the added drain on our finances caused by Relate's £65 a week fees is not helping matters.

I suggested to DH that we stop receiving counselling, simply because we cannot afford it. He agreed initially, but then said that he had discussed it with his Mum, who had offered to meet the cost of 10 sessions as a birthday present. There are lots of reasons why I think this is not a good idea - to begin with, it's just a miserable, depressing thing to receive for your birthday, isn't it? And then there's the fact that I think that the eventual outcome of the counselling will be separation. MIL certainly does not realise this - she things we are just having 'a few problems'. She is very traditional, strict Christian upbringing, etc, and this will come as a dreadful blow to her. Also, I don't want DH acting the martyr over the fact he has received such a present - I feel guilty enough.

But if I don't accept MIL's offer to pay, am I throwing away the chance to try to work on our marriage and make thing better for DD? H will certainly reproach me with this for years to come, especially if we do end up separating, and maybe he would be right to do so?

In going to go a little against the grain here OP and suggest that maybe your issues result from a joint lack of focus on finances, as opposed to a fundamental need to split. No two couples are the same, and if you want the relationship to work I think it's admirable you're willing to work at it.

However, I really believe that joint finances, especially where a DC is involved, are fundamental to a functional relationship. Could you explore your DP's resistance to joint finances, as a separate entity to your relationship?

Why not accept her money? She might simply want you to resolve things. Plain and simple. No strings attached. People always believe the worst on here. If you think your marriage might be worth saving then give it your best shot. Perhaps seek money management advise also

Five pounds a day, I wish I could get my spending down to that and I live in a much cheaper country than the UK.

I think he's lying to you and that his mum hasn't offered the money up at all. He's got it stashed and has thought of a different place for it to come from. Also he enjoys the counselling? Is it as part of his need to portray this feminist persona?

I can't get past the fact that your husband has at least 24k in the bank, and you are scrabbling around with payday loans to feed your child! That is so far from normal its untrue, its clearly severe financial abuse. Stuff relate, you need to talk to a SHL!

Hes a fucking bastard.

Wonder how those young women who hero worship him would feel if you paid him a surprise visit at work and let slip how "frugal" he is.

Tosser.

£5 a day is really low you know. I struggle to keep it to £10 a day.

That's mistress money, I'll bet you anything.

He's just plucked that 5 pounds out of the air, hasn't he, without even thinking about what any of you might need to spend money on. Just thinking about how much cash he needs every day to get his coffee from the machine or grab a sandwich for lunch, perhaps? Rather than all the everyday little things that a sahp will spend money on - sun cream, plasters, getting the bus to the doctor's, new socks for your daughter and a cup of tea while you are in town buying them...

He is financially abusing you, and I bet in counseling if you bring anything up its turned back on you?

Couples counseling is no good when one partner is abusive, please get some counselling for yourself as I think that would be much more useful. I went to couples counselling and everything was turned back on me. We only did 6 sessions and it was awful, he turned the charm on for the counsellor too and made it look like everything was my fault he now thinks we have done the counselling that everything is fine but my confidence and self esteem has plummeted even more.

Look up talking therapies, it's free counselling from the NHS and go by yourself, and then decide from there.

I don't think that there is any question but that you are being financially abused. The fact that you fail to be financially perfect (who is?) doesn't mean that he can withhold access to household finances from you. In fact, if you didn't have to worry about money, you'd probably make a lot fewer impulse purchases (having to constantly evaluate whether you can afford day-to-day necessities quite literally wears out both your willpower and your mental capacity to manage your money). And the attitude that you are a reckless spendthrift and he is a paragon of financial virtue (despite not having a clue where half his money is, apparently!) is abuse in a nutshell. The fact that he doesn't yell doesn't mean he isn't an abuser.

Think about this: he'd rather let your child go hungry than work out a sensible negotiation around finances with you.

I think you're beyond Relate, and I don't think you should let MIL pay. I agree that you might as well bluntly tell her that you'd find the money a lot more useful to feed your child. I definitely think it's time to get some independent financial advice as a prelude to separation and formal negotiation of these things.

Feminist, my arse!

He is stashing money away in a nice, fat nest egg for his retirement. Money he plans on making sure you never see. £24k and you are scrimping to feed dc? £24k that he "forgot" and you believe him?

Wake up woman.

Go back and read all of AF's advice to you. Cheaper than Relate, that's for sure.

My ex used to imply that I was wasteful with money because I had four different lipsticks or shoes and like to order a takeaway a couple of times a month. At the same time we had permanent monthly costs of more than 200 pounds in part payments for his car, 55 pounds for a TV/Internet package he chose (I don't watch the local TV), 30 pounds a month for his Iphone and about the same to keep his "hobby" car, which he got out once a year for its MOT. Skimping on those would apparently also have been wasteful, as you should pay good money for good quality. OP, have you been going on these money-saving courses because he's been making you feel bad about yourself?

Thanks everyone who has posted advice. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I'm afraid I'm having difficulty replying as quickly as I'd like as my phone is not working, but here goes...

if you didn't have to worry about money, you'd probably make a lot fewer impulse purchases (having to constantly evaluate whether you can afford day-to-day necessities quite literally wears out both your willpower and your mental capacity to manage your money) Interesting point, Saranova, I think you might be right.

I bet in counseling if you bring anything up its turned back on you? Nothing hostile or critical has been said yet, we've spent the first three sessions setting out the 'context'. It's taking ages and costing ££££... Really sorry to hear, LittleMissUpset that you had such a hard time in counselling. Thanks for the advice. I hope things look brighter for you soon.

He's just plucked that 5 pounds out of the air, hasn't he, without even thinking about what any of you might need to spend money on. Just thinking about how much cash he needs every day to get his coffee from the machine or grab a sandwich for lunch, perhaps? Rather than all the everyday little things that a sahp will spend money on - sun cream, plasters, getting the bus to the doctor's, new socks for your daughter and a cup of tea while you are in town buying them... Yes, exactly ravenmum. You have expressed my frustration perfectly.

That's mistress money, I'll bet you anything. I wish it was! I'd be overjoyed if he found someone else - would make things a great deal easier for me. I'm sure it's not though - he has a very low sex drive. Our sexual problems are, for me, the main issue, and what I wanted to focus on in counselling, which is why we've not talked at all about money yet.

Stuff relate, you need to talk to a SHL! What's SHL?

he enjoys the counselling? Is it as part of his need to portray this feminist persona? Yes, exactly. He's got the gift of the gab: always got to be right, always got to have the whole world thinking he's a great guy.

Why not accept her money? She might simply want you to resolve things I am sure this is the case - MIL is a very good person. But I don't think she has any idea of the severity of our difficulties, and so I feel that it would be taking the money on a false premise. I've told DH he must fill her in, but I am concerned about that too as it'll upset and worry her (she's very elderly).

Orwellschild, thanks for an alternative view, which I shall think on.

overthehillandroundthemountain, I am so sorry to hear that you are experiencing similar difficulties. I shall try to find your thread and read the advice you've received.

You're not even working as a team yet you have children to think about. You've hit the nail on the head, BotanicBaby, we just can't seem to find a way of working together.

Did he actually want to have children with you? Yes, he was absolutely desperate to be a Dad when I met him. With hindsight, I think I might have just been the nearest convenient uterus! To give him his dues, he has been a very engaged and entertaining father for DD.

At 40 he would have had very fixed ideas about his life and finances. Yes, for sure. He does seem to have a deprivation style of money management.Did he grow up in relative poverty? He grew up in relative comfort, but - apparently - when there were more difficult patches, FIL made sure everyone knew just how distressed, hard-done-by he was feeling. FIL was one of the most selfish, unpleasant men I have ever come across. Coincidently he also had an entourage of admiring ex-students!

I'll go against the grain here and say I think you should take MIL's offer. Even if the counselling brings you to separation point, you have the chance of a better separation (for want of a better word) with Relate than without. Yes, I was thinking the same. Just have to find away not to feel to guilty about poor MIL's disappointment when the almost inevitable separation happens.

Wouldn't mind betting he has other accounts you dont know about. But you will never know now will you? I think he might have one or two, but with relatively small sums of money in them. Over the years, various things from banks have come through the door, and he leaves most of his financial documents lying around the place - that's how I know about the 24k. He's actually remarkably slapdash about these things. Most of the time he doesn't seem to have a clue what's going on himself, (doesn't seem to understand how mortgages or insurance works, for example,) which is odd as he has to be on top of big budgets at work.

What sort of salary are we talking about here? About 65k, so not astronomical, but we shouldn't be on the breadline either. We live in a very expensive London suburb, if that's at all relevant.

It certainly looks like you have him on some sort of pedestal. Fuck knows why. He's definitely not on a pedestal - in fact I spend most days plotting to leave! But I am conscious that he's DD's Dad so try to see the best him as, whatever happens, we need to get on well for her sake. And I know I've been pretty shitty to him at times - I'm no saint myself, that's for sure.

It's not odd at all
He's gaslighting you. Oh look how hopeless I am with money while all the time building up money whilst you struggle.
You have answers to what people are saying but what are you a tillage going to do? Especially as you are going to max out your overdraft you say

Actually daft phone sorry

Did you get a budget done last night? Sounds like it would be great for both of you.

65k in London doesn't go far! Take home is about 3500 pcm after tax and pension. Mortgage can be 2k, bills, insurance, food, nursery fees can be high. Parking can be surprisingly expensive. We did a full breakdown of expenditure, you also need to allow slack for unexpected bills such as house or car repairs. Hopefully school will be cheaper!

Rollercoaster, yes we did. DH said he was feeling very positive about it all, so hopefully it'll actually lead somewhere this time. I shall wait and see. In the past he's appeared to agree to things and then passively resisted, or just done something else entirely.

A few months ago, we had a big row about separating, in which he said he'd refuse to discuss finances, refuse to mediate wouldn't give me a penny from 'his' house. This arose from him making me a 'generous' offer to move me out into a rented flat, subsidise my rent etc in return for me surrendering custody of DD. He reasoning was 'We're happy, you're not, so just go. Why must you drag everything down with you?' I refused and flew into a rage. The next day, he came to me and very contritely said that he'd do anything to stay together, so he had contacted the bank and paid £140 in fees for me to be added to the mortgage. I waited for papers to arrive in the post, but nothing came. When we ran short of money at the end of the month, DH said it was due to the money he had paid out for me to be put on the mortgage. I checked our statement and no money had been paid, asked him about it and to begin with insisted he had paid it, and that I should be pleased because I was on the mortgage - he was trying to make things right between us. It occurred to me that a lender would be unlikely to lend to me without first requiring my personal details and consent to run a credit check. And wouldn't I need to sign something!? Put all this to DH and he became confused, said he didn't understand and had genuinely believed I was on the mortgage. So, in short, I shall believe things are improving when I actually see it.

Mrskeats, in the short-short term I shall badger DH to take some money out of savings to cover food for next week, plus we have direct debits for council tax and utilities coming out. Need to add these up and tell him exactly what is required (don’t think he knows what comes out when). He needs to give 7 days notice to remove money from his investment account, which I pointed out to him. He said he didn't want to do that, but that he said he would sort something out. I asked what, but he wouldn't say. This is typical of how our conversations about money go. Last month I had to borrow from my Mum for food. Don't want to get to that stage again so am worried.

Medium term, I am going to talk to CAB and also see a family lawyer, start gathering together as much paperwork and financial info as I can.

Hang on a minute, he wanted you to move out and 'surrender' your daughter???
You borrowed money from your mum whilst your husband has loads of money?
Sorry struggling to comprehend this now
What did you tell your mum? This is so dysfunctional it's worrying

he became confused, said he didn't understand
How convenient.

He's up to something, isn't he? I don't suppose it could be gambling? Might explain why he suddenly had a huge sum of money (if that bit is true). Whatever is going on, he is wriggling like a worm feigning stupidity and feeding you outright lies. This is not a Relate problem.

Yes, act like you are staying but get hold of - and copy - all the financial information you can find. And look into the benefits you could apply for, where you could stay, how your finances would work without him.

Go to the hairdressers and pub with the money, far more useful exercise

In the olden days he would have been called a miser (large amount of money available, walking around dressed like a tramp, no money for food).

Couples counselling is not what's required. A Shit Hot Lawyer would be more use.

Op, I am struggling to understand why his obvious lying is not a deal breaker for you

Hang on a minute, he wanted you to move out and 'surrender' your daughter??? Well, he didn't phrase it that way! His idea was that I could have her part of the week - say 3 nights, and she could bunk down with me in a 1 bed/studio flat. Her main home, bedroom, toys, etc would remain with him. He thought this would be more stable for her. BTW, he would still have expected me to attend for childcare duties as there is no way he could sub my rent and pay for a nanny to cover his full-time job. The whole project was nonsense, the sums didn't even add up so, TBH, I didn't pay it much attention. He's desperate not to lose DD, and to be fair, he has been a very hands-on, involved Dad. I had PND, which went on for all of the baby/toddler years, so he had to do a lot - bathtimes, bedtimes, taking her out at weekends, etc.

This is one of the reasons I am chary about separating - he's been a big part of her life and it'd be wrong to rip her away from him. I'd accept 50/50, at a push, to keep the peace. But there's no way she's going to have her main home with him, and me as part-time, weekend parent. I'm her Mum and have been her main carer the whole of her life, fgs. DH won't accept this.

You borrowed money from your mum whilst your husband has loads of money? He has some savings, but not pots and pots of money.

What did you tell your mum? I'm pretty close with my Mum. She knows most of what I've disclosed here. She says I need to prioritise getting a job, as the power balance will never change until I am in work.

He's up to something, isn't he? I don't suppose it could be gambling? No, I don't think so, ravenmum. And the money has not appeared suddenly, I think it's a nest egg he's been building up for years, long before we had DD in fact.

I don't actually want to get my hands on the money he earned before we had DD, that's his. I just want to be able to do normal things like set up a joint savings account so we can work together from this point forward.

act like you are staying, yes that's what I am doing at the moment. He's said that he will make separating 'as hard as possible', so I have to be ready and prepared for war when I do go. Hopefully it won't be as bad as I fear when it comes to it, but the moment I am not strong enough for a high conflict divorce, as I have just recovered from a long period of mental and physical illness. I want to get DD settled in Reception in Sept 2017, and go back to full-time work before taking the plunge. It's just too scary right now. But in the meantime, I want to do Relate to investigate (confirm?) that it really is unsalvageable. I need to know for sure, otherwise I'll be forever questioning my decision. And hopefully it'll help to make any separation as civilised as possible.

You don't wanted to be added onto the mortgage!!! Why would you want to become more liable for his debt than you are already as his wife...