Can't afford Relate but MIL is offering to pay - WWYD?

[LazyCake]

DH and I have been having lots of problems, for a very long time. We recently started to receive counselling from Relate, but are really, really struggling to pay for the sessions, which take place every week and cost £65. The counselling has been helpful to a degree, it makes me feel calmer as I am no longer dealing with all the problems and worrying about the future on my own. DH says that he enjoys it (a bit odd, but good I suppose?!)

Anyway, our finances are in chaos, and any discussion of how things might be improved leads to long arguments that go nowhere. This has been going on for years, but has got worse recently. Today I am trying to work out how to feed DD until payday, which is ridiculous as DH is on a good salary. So the added drain on our finances caused by Relate's £65 a week fees is not helping matters.

I suggested to DH that we stop receiving counselling, simply because we cannot afford it. He agreed initially, but then said that he had discussed it with his Mum, who had offered to meet the cost of 10 sessions as a birthday present. There are lots of reasons why I think this is not a good idea - to begin with, it's just a miserable, depressing thing to receive for your birthday, isn't it? And then there's the fact that I think that the eventual outcome of the counselling will be separation. MIL certainly does not realise this - she things we are just having 'a few problems'. She is very traditional, strict Christian upbringing, etc, and this will come as a dreadful blow to her. Also, I don't want DH acting the martyr over the fact he has received such a present - I feel guilty enough.

But if I don't accept MIL's offer to pay, am I throwing away the chance to try to work on our marriage and make thing better for DD? H will certainly reproach me with this for years to come, especially if we do end up separating, and maybe he would be right to do so?

"DH got a bit more shouty and stuck in his ways when I was pregnant, smashed a few things which was a bit of a shock, but nothing major."

Smashed a few things... nothing major!!! I wonder what is major in your world

"I don't know where to draw the line, other than taking DD away and permitting only supervised contact (which a judge would probably disallow in any case)."

How do you know what a judge would or wouldn't allow? You haven't got any legal advice have you? Talk to a solicitor with experience in DVA and child abuse/neglect and see what they say.

"He told me that he hit his ex, which would have been a red line for me, except I was already pregnant."

Ri-ight... So physical violence is OK if you're pregnant?! No need to worry about putting yourself and your unborn child at risk

Your posts reveal denial, minimisation, and excuses.
You need to wake up and start protecting your child.
You seem to be making some progress but you can't afford to flounder for too long.
You need professional advice ASAP.

For starters, you could call the free Rights of Women family law helpline and ask them to send you this:
rightsofwomen.org.uk/get-information/family-law/child-arrangements-and-domestic-violence-a-handbook-for-women/

LazyCake, don't beat yourself up over this, it will just keep you standing in the same place. You have been very honest with yourself and with us, brutally honest, and that is really, really tough. Well done on admitting your faults.

Now you can look forward. Decide what you are going to do and how you are going to do it. You will need a plan, all financial information you can get, and then gird your loins and do it.

So, Shit Hot Lawyer. RL support (we're quite good here, but virtual support is not really enough - you will find it much easier to follow your determinations with rl people around) so Freedom Programme, CAB, and WA when you can get hold of them.

And us! You will be able do it, and you will be a much better single parent than you think you will, honest!

I remember your last thread now about the "look after mummy".

Your husband sneakily emailed your family about you not being able to look after DD for long. He's done that to serve as evidence for custody in the future. To show that he was so concerned he emailed your loved ones.

I would keep written records of his financial abuse as well. Document those incidents and keep evidence where possible.

I can't believe the quibble over 20p. He's on another level of controlling and it's very scary, but I think you've become used to it now. Who argues over 20p FFS.

You can do so much better than this and you need to escape from this hell that's your life.

There was another poster called GettingBig almost 4 years ago who was going through similar.

The windows thing reminds me of her threads

She got out and AFAIK is doing much better.

Yes, I remember getting big, her H was sinister, and her home was unsafe for the DC because of unfinished DIY and her car unsafe too. Hope she stayed out and is doing OK.

If you LTB your DD can still see him. Unfortunately you can't monitor her safety while with him, but you can't really do that now either.

It seems that his parenting is problematic, and since he's an abusive partner to her mother she is not better off living with the two of you together.

Lundy Bancroft says that men claiming previous partners were violent or hit them first is a HUGE red flag that they have been violent and are likely to be again. You know about the recent ex, but presumably not his full history.

Yes, Memoires, I SHL is definitely required. And thanks for the offer of online support. Posting here has been really helpful - things have really been clarified and a lot of the guilt that was holding me back from acting has gone now. Thank you so much everyone who has taken the time and trouble to post, even if I haven't always seemed to agree with you, or been listening properly to what you've said. It's been a lot to take on board, but I shall re-read in the next few days.

Re: GettingBig, I am glad to hear she found Mumsnet such a help. I think there's something so powerful about talking to strangers anonymously, and also being able to have a conversation that unfolds organically over several days, rather than being just interviewed by a professional.

Ri-ight... So physical violence is OK if you're pregnant?! No need to worry about putting yourself and your unborn child at risk No, I made the judgement that he would not physically harm DD or myself and, 4 years later, that has been borne out. He has never laid a finger on either of us. Conversely, if I had left DD would certainly have spent the first three (developmentally crucial) years of her life in poverty, with no meaningful relationship with her father. So I stand by my decision and would do the same again.

Your posts reveal denial, minimisation, and excuses.
You need to wake up and start protecting your child.
I have been protecting my child, right from the beginning and am continuing to do so. That's why I referred my self for PND treatment, got help from Homestart and began to confide in friends and family. I have also contacted lawyers, started receiving counselling from Relate and last week wrote at length to Women's Aid. It's not fair to imply that I have been doing nothing.

You can stop any time you like. If you want to. Yes, on particularly bad days I often remind of this fact. I could leave in the next hour if I chose to do so, taking DD with me. However, I believe that this could precipitate a chain of events that would have even more adverse consequences for DD than carrying on with the status quo.

Thanks for the kind words, Maudlin, which have really cheered me.

I made the judgement that he would not physically harm DD or myself and, 4 years later, that has been borne out. He has never laid a finger on either of us. Conversely, if I had left DD would certainly have spent the first three (developmentally crucial) years of her life in poverty, with no meaningful relationship with her father. So I stand by my decision and would do the same again

Well ,with respect, she IS living in poverty .

Having to live in an unsafe house because you don't have the £20 to fix is is poverty .

Not having food in the house and having to scrounge off friends and family to buy some is poverty .

Having to shop in expensive small local shops because you haven't got the means to get to a discount store / supermarket and then feeling guilty for " wasting money " is EXACTLY what poverty looks like in the Uk ins 2016.

It's not children in the workhouse or sitting begging in the street in rags.

And why do you think it that Dd wouldn't have a " meaningful relationship" with her father just because you weren't living with him or married to him ? Lots of parents who don't cohabit manage to co parent .

I'm not suggesting that you beat yourself up about the decisions that you made four years ago. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we've all done things we regret .

But I feel I have to ( hopefully gently ) challenge some of the flaws in your logic because some of them are keeping you trapped where you are right now, in an abusive marriage .

What is the 'chain of events' that you fear with happen?

What is the 'chain of events' that you fear with happen? I think it's very likely that leaving would result in a very acrimonious dispute over assets and custody. I haven't said much about my health here, but it's been a big factor in me putting up and shutting up thus far. About a month ago, I was effectively disabled: I could barely sit up or stand, let alone walk. DD's playgroup is ten minutes from home, but getting her there and back everyday could be a bit of an ordeal - would have to stop several times and rest on the pavement, similarly had to sit on the floor when queuing in shops, etc because otherwise I'd faint. My health declined over several months as a result of un-diagnosed Addison's disease. This was a dark, dark time as I knew that, given the state of my health, any custody battle would certainly go DH's way. However, thankfully things are looking much better now. Got taken in to hospital and month ago and was diagnosed. Now I'm taking meds and the doctors say that, once they've tweaked the dose, I'll be feeling pretty normal most of the time.

But the other more outlandish fears remain - that DH will go NC with DD, that he'll abduct her or harm himself if he cannot get the access he wants.

And then, of course, there is fear of destitution.

Well ,with respect, she IS living in poverty . [...] Not having food in the house and having to scrounge off friends and family to buy some is poverty . You make a good point, Kr1stina. I've started to think that we could be a lot more secure on vastly decreased income, because at least I'd have full control.

And why do you think it that Dd wouldn't have a " meaningful relationship" with her father just because you weren't living with him or married to him ? Didn't mean to imply that non-resident parents are unable to have good relationships with their kids. But if he'd been living elsewhere, DH wouldn't have been able to do night feeds, bath times, spontaneous play - all the little everyday things that bond you to a new baby.

I agree with Kr1stina. She has been living in poverty. She has also grown up in an abusive household.

As a single parent you would be entitled to child maintenance from him - this depends on his salary and the amount of overnights they have, but given that he earns a good salary it would be a decent amount. You would also be entitled to benefits and/or tax credits. Whether you leave him now, or you had left him while pregnant, you would not be living in poverty. On a low income maybe, but not in poverty. And crucially you would not be living with an abuser.

But if you think the paltry amounts of money (compared to his overall income and savings) that he has deigned to throw your way over the last few years have been worth all the emotional abuse... Well that's your call.

There is no certainty at all that a custody battle would go this way
If he haggles over 20p in aldi you think he will blow thousands on lawyers?
As another points out you would be entitled to lots of support financially and otherwise
You are the main carer anyway

Yes, Mrskeats since my physical health has improved and I am not longer receiving treatment for mental health issues, it's much more likely that I'd get majority custody.

I am feeling a lot more optimistic and able to cope with all this.

Well that's good then
I was in an ea relationship and believe me I know it's hard to disentangle yourself

Thank you. And posting here has also been an enormous help.

Goodness, you have been through a lot with undiagnosed Addison's. Don't forget that you may have had it a very long time so much of the inadequacy and mental health problems he will start chuntering on about as reasons why you shouldn't be caring for DD don't actually apply any more - they can all be put down to you having Addison's and living with an abusive man.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to discover you didn't have PND at all but endocrine problems.

I can see that it may be in your interests to have a period living with him (uggghh) where you are in excellent health and clearly functioning as the primary carer to provide evidence for future custofy battles.

Yes, Wolpertinger, the diagnosis was a massive relief because, finally, I knew I wasn't going mad (up till that point my symptoms had been dismissed as 'depression'). And now I'm better I can think about re-entering the workplace, although (following the advice of posters here) I won't do that until custody of DD is resolved as it's essential that I remain her main carer.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to discover you didn't have PND at all but endocrine problems. Yes, the mental problems came on very fast and hard after DD was born, which made me think it was a response to a rapid depletion of progesterone when the pregnancy ended. Now I am wondering if my adenals somehow got messed up in the labour as I felt extremely ill afterwards, wasn't able to breastfeed - even though the midwives kept on telling me what an 'easy' one I'd had! Heigh ho. The main thing is I am feeling better now and can start sorting this mess out.

I can see that it may be in your interests to have a period living with him (uggghh) where you are in excellent health and clearly functioning as the primary carer to provide evidence for future custofy battles. Yes, I need to use the time to keep of journal of my caring responsibilities, so DH can't defame me in a custody dispute.

Ok, so I think this thread is coming to a natural end. I really don't want to to waste the momentum that has built here so will start taking some concrete steps in the next week to sort out the mess I'm in. Here's what I'll do:

• Call Women's Aid. I can use the email I've already sent to them as an agenda for a discussion of what's going on. I still wouldn't describe my household as abusive, but if someone says they think my child is in danger, I'm going to listen very carefully. And a lot of you have said exactly that.
• Make an appointment with a SHL for an initial consultation. Will probably go with the one I've already contacted, who I mentioned up-thread. Organise money for said appointment.
• Contact the Rights of Women people to get more info on legal rights.
• Start keeping journal of the care I give to DD, as insurance to be used in the event of DH demanding majority custody.
• Work out how much I'd have to earn to live independently and support DD in our area. Make a plan for getting a job that pays enough to cover us.
• Sort out window locks and any other hazardous things in the environment.
• Prioritise budgeting and meal planning to make sure DD always has abundant, healthy food.

One thing I'd like your advice about... Do you think it'd be a good idea to share part or all of this conversation with my Relate counsellor? I have a one-to-one with him on Thursday, and it strikes me that this thread gives a pretty good picture of what's been going and how I've been feeling about it. Do you think that might be a good way of moving things forward? And would anyone who has contributed object to that?

Anyway, just wanted to say a massive thank you to you all the kind words and tough love.

If anything significant happens, I shall come back and update.

Glad you have a plan, OP, it sounds like a good one.

The only thing I would add is that you don't have to wait until you have a job in order to live independently and support DD. As I've said before you will be entitled to benefits, child maintenance and at least 50% of the marital assets. Obviously getting a job is an important medium/long term goal but don't let that be a stumbling block to breaking free.

Personally I wouldn't mind you sharing this thread with the Relate counsellor and I think it could be a good idea. If the counsellor is any good at all it will help them to understand what is going on and hopefully they will encourage you to contact women's aid as we have done.

Has your endocrinologist checked you are not panhypopit as well as Addisonian? This can be a complication of childbirth and would explain the onset of your Addisons symptoms at the same time as DD's birth.

It may of course be coincidence that your Addisons started at the same time but it isn't unusual for people to have more than one endocrine disorder so you should be checked - I would hope that your endocrinologist has done with anyway.

Do I think you should share this thread with your Relate counsellor - I think your should share your realisations about the extent of his financial and emotional abuse. How you tell the counsellor you discovered this is up to you! At this point any counsellor worth their salt should advise you not to proceed with joint counselling as it is not recommended in cases of abuse due to the likelihood that the abuser will manipulate the counselling. If the Relate counsellor does anything other than recommend you stop, or have separate counselling with a new separate counsellor to your husband then you know the process is already contaminated by your husband.

Yes, and I haven't yet read the pamphlet you linked to, AnotherEmma - the one about financial issues and leaving abusive relationships.

There's something else I forgot to put on my list: I may call the NSPCC helpline to see if they have any advice about the problems I have with DH being very casual about safety issues. Not sure if they'll be able to say/do much, but I suppose there's no harm in giving them a call.

That's an interesting thought, Wolpertinger. Back when I was desperately googling to try and work out what was wrong with me, I came across that, but dismissed it because I don't think I had low blood pressure/blood loss with my labour. But I suppose it would explain why I couldn't breastfeed (had oodles of help with this, and everyone kept saying everything was fine - except it wasn't). I'll ask my endocrinologist. I have my first outpatients appointment next month.

Good luck, op. You have gained in insight as this thread has progressed, it is clear to see

Yes, share all this during your one to one. Use this thread to paraphrase or even directly share.

Do not, whatever you do, share any of this with your H

Agreed, AF.

Lazycake endocrinologists love this sort of thing

Could all be Addisons but yes if you couldn't produce prolactin, you couldn't breastfeed and so on and so forth... Hopefully your thyroid has been checked as well. You may have any combination of hormones missing and if you haven't had your first outpatient appointment yet they will prob want to do a lot of tests. So definitely mention the absence of breastfeeding and general onset around childbirth - they will be soooo excited I'm not even an endocrinologist and I'm sort of excited