Can't afford Relate but MIL is offering to pay - WWYD?

[LazyCake]

DH and I have been having lots of problems, for a very long time. We recently started to receive counselling from Relate, but are really, really struggling to pay for the sessions, which take place every week and cost £65. The counselling has been helpful to a degree, it makes me feel calmer as I am no longer dealing with all the problems and worrying about the future on my own. DH says that he enjoys it (a bit odd, but good I suppose?!)

Anyway, our finances are in chaos, and any discussion of how things might be improved leads to long arguments that go nowhere. This has been going on for years, but has got worse recently. Today I am trying to work out how to feed DD until payday, which is ridiculous as DH is on a good salary. So the added drain on our finances caused by Relate's £65 a week fees is not helping matters.

I suggested to DH that we stop receiving counselling, simply because we cannot afford it. He agreed initially, but then said that he had discussed it with his Mum, who had offered to meet the cost of 10 sessions as a birthday present. There are lots of reasons why I think this is not a good idea - to begin with, it's just a miserable, depressing thing to receive for your birthday, isn't it? And then there's the fact that I think that the eventual outcome of the counselling will be separation. MIL certainly does not realise this - she things we are just having 'a few problems'. She is very traditional, strict Christian upbringing, etc, and this will come as a dreadful blow to her. Also, I don't want DH acting the martyr over the fact he has received such a present - I feel guilty enough.

But if I don't accept MIL's offer to pay, am I throwing away the chance to try to work on our marriage and make thing better for DD? H will certainly reproach me with this for years to come, especially if we do end up separating, and maybe he would be right to do so?

can you get copies of mortgage statement, pension, savings, current account, shares etc? If so leave copies with a trusted friend.

I reckon your mum and sister know he's a bad egg but won't be totally honest as they don't want to ruin their relationship with you (ie you might tell him and then he encourages you not to see them). I think they are playing the long game.

He is financially and emotionally abusive .

He discouraged you from getting help for your PND. He said it was a weakness of character .

He attacked you for spending £5 / week on slimming world , to lose weight and also enjoy the social side of meetings

When you ask for money to buy food for your child , he has hysterics - crying, shaking and threatening to commit a criminal offence .

He refuses to give you money to feed you child when he has £24 k in savings, supposedly for her.

He attacks you for being profligate when you buy clothes ffrom charity shops and primark . This is not extravagent when you earn £65 k a year.

He makes you feel guilty for all sorts of things that are not his fault .

You might find this book helpful

www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_20?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=why+does+he+do+that+inside+the+minds+of+angry+and+controlling+men&sprefix=undefined%2Caps%2C194

I know your are short of cash , but maybe your sister or mum would order it for you?

There is nothing wrong with spending £5 per week on yourself to get yourself healthy. He really has done a number on you if you feel bad about that.

To be honest you should just leave, no amount of relate or discussions about bills are going to overcome the issues. Get your ducks in order by all means- you'll need it as he will play dirty in a divorce.

I'd love to hear his side to all of this! You sound quite balanced actually, but you do need to be clear about whether you want to try and get the marriage work or not. So does he!

The stress of a marriage in difficulty can be very tough on both, and can drive strange behaviours, especially where there is a lack of trust. It sounds like you both love your child but neither of you is sure about each other.
If he is enjoying councilling it would be interesting to find out why? Sounds like a safe place to communicate is good for both you.

Oh my goodness, OP, I have just read this whole thread.

As others have said - definitely don't leave without your DD. It will become the status quo and you (as you already suspect from other stuff you've read) may not get full custody of her again. I know someone that this has happened to. Her life is just in disarray because of it - and her ExDH is actually about to leave the country with her DD (not sure why she's not fighting harder, too worn down maybe) because of work.

I agree with your mum that you might enjoy going back to work and getting life going again outside of home, but this can start in September when your DD starts at nursery? Is a small rental flat a possibility in your neighbourhood? You and your DD can both share a one-bed? A good friend of mine divorced and she and her daughter shared a one-bed flat until her daughter was around 6, and they upgraded to a lovely two-bed. They're such a team, a really great pair. Neither of them scarred from living in a small space at all!

And the counselling - yes like others have said should be for just you, too. I'm a big fan of CBT, it's very active. It's all about moving forward.

But it does sound like couples counselling might actually make this a more amicable split? (As it does sound like a split is what you want.)

Also - you don't spend a lot on yourself. Please, please don't feel guilty about the odd eyebrow thread and makeup purchase! My DH earns a lot more than me (I work part time and we have young children) and I spend a vast amount more on myself than he spends on himself. I have a gym membership, buy myself new clothes seasonally, and the odd coffees and lunches with friends and our kids. He doesn't do any of that (his choice, he doesn't want to do those things. He doesn't care about them! Apart from drinks and stuff with friends). I don't question what he buys and vice versa. We're not wealthy, but - it's our money. It doesn't matter who earns it, all of it is ours. I look after our children, he goes out to work. The money is pooled... It's also how I was brought up. My mum was a SAHM and my dad worked full time. They had a joint account and were equally responsible for paying the bills, budgeting, etc, even though my dad was the only one bringing actual money in.

As so many others have said, it's very unhealthy that he makes you feel guilty about spending, all the while, putting money in secret savings.

I wonder how much of your depression has been caused by this unhappy relationship?

Also - just huge good luck with it all, I really hope things work out for you and you can come out of this fog much happier.

It seems unlikely to me that with a family income of 65k it is your eyebrow threading etc. that is the source of your financial problems. Obviously, if you can't afford to buy food, your eyebrows should not come first - as you are well aware - but the fact that it is a luxury is surely a symptom that your finances are not healthy for some other reason. Do you have enough of an overview to be able to work out where all the money is going? Changing suppliers is all very well, but could it be for example that your home is the wrong size or in the wrong location?

Agree with the pp who said that your guilt is a tool he can use. Don't forget that even if you have been rather careless with money, that is not automatically the cause of your problems. His "drawing the line" comment makes it sound as if he is finally saying "no" now after years of your beeding him dry. Don't allow your guilt about spending money on yourself, or about having suffered from depression, to convince you that this is the truth.

Thanks everyone who has posted. I received an email earlier from DH who says that there is ANOTHER instant access savings account which has £1000 in it. He has transferred £500 into our current account to make sure we're covered for everything until payday. So the immediate crisis is averted.

Rollercoaster, he says he is enjoying counselling because he seldom gets the opportunity to talk about himself.

If I was unflinchingly honest, Olivia, I'd have to admit that I've often spent a good deal more that £5 a week on myself.

Thanks for the book recommendation, Kr1stina. I shall check it out.

I'm not defending him, Mrskeats, I've been feeling pretty angry with him for a very long time. Just trying to keep his shortcomings in perspective, as it's in no one's interests to go to war - least of all DD's.

43percentburnt, hugely helpful post, thanks. Much of what you've said I was either ignorant of or hazy about.

Do you claim cb and he pays the higher rate tax charge? Yes, I claim CB, which is paid into our joint bank account. He doesn't pay the higher rate tax charge, because he refuses to do a tax return and, so far, they have not rumbled him. This makes me worry that at some point we'll be clobbered by a huge tax bill, plus fines. I have nagged him about this, and continue to remind him every 6 months of so, but he does nothing.

Does he shop around for interest rates on his savings? I don't believe so. Sometimes tries to give the impression that he is financially savvy, by alluding to unspecified 'investments' that he holds and using highfallutin terms like 'fiscal responsibility' to describe his approach to money but, TBH, he seems pretty clueless much of the time.

Did he save the savings himself from wages or was it inheritance? Wages. He has been a diligent saver in the past, that's for sure, which is why I'm not interested in grabbing the money he earned/saved before we met, as there would be something very unjust about that I think.

He will go for 50/50 to reduce maintenance I'm worried he'll go further, and demand to be the main carer. He is absolutely resolute that 1. He will not give up DD, and 2. He will not give me any of 'his' money.

He will call you money grabbing and greedy. Yep, already has in fact!

I reckon your mum and sister know he's a bad egg but won't be totally honest as they don't want to ruin their relationship with you (ie you might tell him and then he encourages you not to see them). I think they are sympathetic to the difficulties I've been having, but also know that he's been a good Dad to DD and appreciate that he's reliably brought in an income over the years. He has not encouraged me not to see them, but he's let it be known that he'd like to be included in all the conversations I have with them regarding our marriage, says we are one family and should be working through this together. After I raised the idea of separating, he organised a meeting with my Mum to discuss the situation, which was apparently excruciatingly embarrassing for her.

he's been a good Dad to DD

Not giving his childs mother enough money to feed her child is NOT being a good dad. It's an insult to good dads.

Thanks, ravenmum. I think you give very good advice.

Yes, I agree some perspective is required. I have spent on things for myself, but so has he. He runs a car, which is hugely expensive and not strictly necessary. Until he finally agreed to get a new quote a couple of months ago, he was paying £750 on insurance alone. He also has a gym membership he doesn't use, pays for a useless mobile which is NEVER charged and NEVER with him (but that's a whole different thread...)

His "drawing the line" comment makes it sound as if he is finally saying "no" now after years of your beeding him dry. I think this is exactly how he sees things. He was single, earning well and without dependents for many years. I don't think he's ever come to terms with the fact that having a young family, three people living of one income etc is inevitably going to reduce his disposable income. He loves DD, but resents the reduction in his standard of living, and blames me for it.

He is reading out the script...

He is seriously gaslighting and mind f*cking you at every turn. He hasn't just found another £1k he is lying through his balls because he doesn't want you to go to the bank with him.

What seems to be the problem Mr LazyCake?? Oh you want to extend your overdraft when you have 5 accounts totalling £90k in savings???

He is not a good parent, good parents do not treat their DC other parent like sh*t.

Once your DD has a mind of her own he will not be happy with her and I doubt she will ever see on of the nest egg. Ask him to put it in her name as a trust fund - bet there is an excuse!!!

Mobile phone - basically so he can go wherever he wants and whenever he wants.

He has totally used you as a uterus and he will keep you trapped as long as possible because he OWNS DD just like he tries to OWN you.

1. He will not give up DD, and 2. He will not give me any of 'his' money

It's not about what he wants , the courts will decide on both these things if you can't agree.

You are DDs main carer and won't get less than 50% of the time. I don't see how he will be willing to pay for childcare for her while he's working if he resents having to spend money feeding her .

The courts will also decide on the financial settlement if you can't agree.

Wanting to evesdrop on you conversations with your family is very controlling . No wonder you mother thinks he's a plonker.

Do you claim cb and he pays the higher rate tax charge? Yes, I claim CB, which is paid into our joint bank account. He doesn't pay the higher rate tax charge, because he refuses to do a tax return and, so far, they have not rumbled him. This makes me worry that at some point we'll be clobbered by a huge tax bill, plus fines. I have nagged him about this, and continue to remind him every 6 months of so, but he does nothing

This is what I would do . Open your own bank account in a different bank from the one where you joint account is. Contact HMRC and give them the detail and get the CB paid into it . Say nothing to your DH and when he spots that it's stopped, deny all knowledge .

If he ever find out, say you are saving it for her for college .

He is bonkers by the way, no one with half a brain messes with HMRC. He's storing up trouble for HIM, it's HIM who will get the big bill. Don't waste your energy worrying about it .

Can I reiterate what I said before? Don't go for joint couselling with him, it's not recommended if there's abuse .

Of course he doesn't want you to speak to your mum while he's not there! How is he going to sabotage your attempts to leave if he doesn't know what's said.

Your mum is legally allowed not to take party in 'family meetings'

So, hang on... He has a gym membership he doesn't use, a car that's not necessary & doesn't shop around for utilities. While you don't have enough for FOOD. That is outrageous & unacceptable.

Is going back to work an option for you? At least if you earn enough to justify childcare costs you can start working towards independence from him.

And keep confiding in your family. I'm sure they won't "love" him when they realise what's going on.

And the small amounts of money you're spending eg £5 on slimming clubs, threading etc - these are normal, everyday costs. It is not normal to scrutinise your partners spending to this degree.

It's interesting that you got together when things in your life weren't great. Abusive men love a vulnerable woman. He liked it better when you were overweight & had PND (didn't you say earlier?).

He doesn't get to decide how marital assets are split. Or on custody. You don't answer to him.

If you're feeling strong enough, legal advice is the way to go.

God, I had assumed you were taking about designer handbags and spa days, not eyebrow threading and a 5 quid slimming club membership!

You are not a spendthrift. And he is lying to you, constantly. It's utterly appalling.

I think you have been like the proverbial 'frog in boiling water' for too long, and you just can't see things clearly anymore.

Do you have any idea how much the mortgage etc is per month? I' e concrete proof - the bank statement it goes from. Do you see where all the wages go?

I was so sure you were going to say he wasn't pay the child benefit charge. Don't worry it's him who will get in trouble. He doesn't want to fill in a tax return as I'm guessing he thinks he will have to pay further interest on his savings.

Seriously op, you need a SHL, he has found a grand - me thinks there is more than 1k but saying 1k will mean you can't ask for much more! You need to know legally where you stand - always take your full legal entitlement. He'll think you are a greedy gold digger if you take 1% of the assets or 70% - but I promise you it will be you who has to fund driving lessons, proms, university and weddings as greedy dad won't want to. So take all of your legal entitlement, for your child's sake.

Fwiw I work ft - our savings are stashed in DH name (sahd) and I pay the cb tax charge. Im am in a very similar situation to your DH, i think he is treating you terribly, my DH and kids aren't second class to me. I would never pay for the gym or a phone whilst my family wanted food. It's sad that he is treating you like this.

The fact that he has told you he'd give up work is the evidence you need in your mind to understand that you actually need a divorce settlement that will provide for your DD financially.

He wanted her, he bullied you into have her and guess what he needs to provide for her throughout her childhood!

65k is a good wage. I think as a rough guide you would need about £400 per month for grocery shopping (make it £500 so there is a bit of spare for birthday presents or take away or whatever small extras might arise), then £100 per month for you (clothes, shoes, hairdresser, coffee, etc..,) and about £50-100 per month for DD (playgroups, days out, clothes, occasional treat/toy, etc...). The grocery money is non negotiable as you need to eat, if he begrudges you the other £200, have the local nursery fees on hand, they will be upwards of £50 per day which is £1000 per month and is what he would have to pay if you work. Perhaps have a grocery account and a you and DD accounts where the necessary sums are put in every month regardless of other bills.
He is hiding money from you and depriving you of the basics. Also it's not on to threaten to leave his job or other rubbish, he wanted a DD and now has to take responsibility that it costs money to raise a child.

I forgot to say that the nursery fees I quoted don't include nappies and food, so would still have same grocery bill on top.

"He seemed to prefer me fat and depressed -"

Its probably why he said you should keep your food costs down to £5 a day. He knows damn well you wont be able to afford to eat healthily on that.

I do SW. And keeping it down that low i wouldnt be able to.

And im not surprised he started pushing for a kid so early. It isnt because he desperately wanted a child.

Its because he wanted you at home under his control.

Nickname, the story you tell about the woman you know who lost her kids is truly chilling. I shan't forget it.

Your suggestions prompted me to go on rightmove and have a look at some 1 bed flats in my area. They start at about £950 per month. I'd need to do some sums, but I think that means I'd need approaching £30,000 salary to make us secure. I've been out of the workplace a for several years, so I don't suppose walking into a job with that kind of salary will be straightforward, but I do have a few ideas of occupations in which I could get that kind of pay as a new starter. Might start a post of the 'Work' board to get some more ideas.

I think DD and I could be happy in a 1 bed, as she'd have her own room and bunking on the sofa wouldn't bother me in the slightest. However, I am absolutely certain that DH would object. Would the courts regard this kind of set-up as neglectful, do you think?

Yes, 43percentburnt, I have access to the mortgage statement. I can see all of the household payments as they are coming out of our joint bank account, it's just that so far I have been able to pin him down to work with me on reducing them. When I visited the bank recently, I went through some figures with an advisor who thought it was likely we could save as much as £200 a month on our mortgage. I just don't understand why DH would not want to do this. I think he prefers being able to go around telling people that, because of his profligate wife, he can't afford a dental checkup, can't afford to clean his clothes, hasn't been on holiday for years - not true, he and DD had a villa holiday in Italy last year and he's hoping he'll be able to get to a Greek island this summer. I don't resent that BTW, just want him to stop moaning, fgs!

unable to pin him down...

Did you not go on holiday with them ?

Ok you do not need to think about what he thinks at all, his opinion does not matter
You keep p quoting what he would think or say to you, p,ease stop that now because it is irrelevant now
You said you are going to leave hi. So think about that I. The best terms possible for you
Go to WA and talk to the., you need help to assert yourself, you seem to have lost you I. This marriage
I was like you once, it is a revelation when you get yourself back, when he and what he thinks or may say is the first thing that comes into my head stops and you can think clearly for yourself again.

Thanks for the figures, BlackVelvet.

I really hope that he's bluffing about giving up work if we separate, Random. He says that separating would mean that he had no reason to carry on, that life would have lost it's meaning. I know he's upset, but I just don't get that - because DD will still be there and have all the same needs she had before, won't she?

Helena, I think I've inadvertently made things sound worse than they are. DH does a £50-ish supermarket shop each week, so £5 a day does not have to cover all food, thank goodness. I'm not particularly happy with the much of stuff he buys - shit loads of pasta, turkey mince, chopped tomatoes, onions (inconvenient to make up as lunches when I have get her to playgroup by 12.30pm everyday), plus super-cheap and ultra processed ham, sausages and fishfingers which aren't good enough for a growing child, IMO - but he does usually get a shop in most weeks. Trouble is, it's not the stuff I actually cook (I do breakfast, lunch and dinner for DD and myself while he is at work), so I end up spending loads on extras at our local (and very expensive) Tesco Express. As usual, we're deadlocked - he keeps grumbling about me buying extra food, but I must admit haven't really pulled my finger out to sort out appropriate meal plans that he can buy for at supermarket.

He controls everything then doesn't he
Please get out from u der this