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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

First time poster - advice would be appreciated about a sensitive issue

182 replies

dustybrother · 14/04/2016 15:56

Hello everyone, I am male and a first time poster here, I hope you don't mind me asking you all for some advice/guidance.

I've been married for about four years now, together for twelve and we have a 2.5 year old daughter. Very slowly of the course of our relationship my wife has become increasingly aggressive about things and can be very short with people. I on the other hand can be quite sensitive things and this has often led to arguments about one of us over-reacting to something or a particular situation.

On about 4 occasions over the past 5 years or so my wife has really lost the plot whereby she will hit out at me and I would have to hold her like you would a young child until she calms down. Things really came to a head about 5 months ago when she punched me in the head and on other parts of the body leading to some light bruising. I was driving at the time on the continent and I went through set a of lights when I probably shouldn't of done as I was confused by them. It wasn't a dangerous manoeuvre, nevertheless she screamed and shouted at me to stop, which I did, and then proceeded to punch me in the face hard. Her explanation is that she thought she was going to die. I am still in complete shock from the whole thing, and it has made me feel much more aggressive towards her which is completely out of character for me. I do not feel like sex with her at the moment as deep down as just don't want it, I'm so angry with her.

What do you think I should do?

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 18/04/2016 11:16

dustybrother

Please stop calling her "forthright and opinionated" (more minimising from you through your own denial) and call her what she really is; an abuser who uses her fists on you. She is inherently violent and as a child she saw violence in the home because her parents lived with her violent grandfather.

What did you learn about relationships when growing up?.

Re this comment:-
"We are hugging (although she doesn't really like hugs or kissing unfortunately) and I really don't want things to finish right now, I just couldn't cope"

I actually think you could cope and admirably so without her in your life; you do not want to for your own reasons perhaps your own co-dependency and also perhaps a hope still that she will change in that she will come to her senses and not hit you any more. Is any of that more important than your DD growing up in such a household?. Who comes first; your child or this woman?.

You have a choice re her; your DD does not.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 18/04/2016 11:22

She does not have to directly remember it; the fact that she grew up in a household where her parents lived with the grandfather who hit his wife is telling and could well be one factor.

What "extreme situations" has she been put into exactly?. She has hit you when you yourself have been driving her. Being a passenger in a car is not an extreme situation at all.

Whatever the reasons it does not give her the right to use you (and I note her violence is only aimed at you, also she can control herself around other people) as a physical punching bag. Look at what she has done to you as a man, she has reduced you to this with you minimising desperately.

Would you want your DD to be violent as well as an adult?. Of course not. But you are showing her that this behaviour from her mother towards you is currently acceptable to you.

Iamdobby63 · 18/04/2016 11:28

Did she blow up at the rail inspector?

Being volatile and being physically violent are two different things. It appears you are the only one she lashes out at when faced with a stressful situation, probably because you are the one she feels most comfortable with and can't be confident she will get away with it with someone else.

But it all takes its toll on your relationship, whether we are male or female - trust and respect are the most important aspects of any relationship.

Your wife is the one who should be seeking help, and she needs to be honest whilst doing so. If she doesn't and continues along this path she will be very lonely, my mother was volatile (verbally) and I ended up having no relationship with her.

NameChange30 · 18/04/2016 13:27

Hi, OP. Been thinking about you.

I'm glad you're going to a hotel tonight and will be taking some time for yourself. Enjoy the gym and/or DVD Smile

It's sad that your wife doesn't like hugging or kissing. She doesn't sound affectionate or loving at all. Does she have any positive qualities? Although I don't think anything makes up for the fact that she is abusive.

It does sound like you are having trouble accepting the idea that is she abusive. Maybe it's too scary to consider atm? Maybe it's more comfortable for you to accept her version of events, minimising her abuse and blaming yourself and/or incompatibility? I wouldn't blame you for being in denial, but I do encourage you to be aware of it and to have the courage to face up to the uncomfortable truth. If you don't feel ready for that yet, please please see a counsellor (maybe go back to the one you saw before?) which will help you work through your feelings and cope with whatever you decide to do for now.

Can I suggest that you start a log of all the abuse and keep it somewhere safe that she can't access? (eg hard copy at work or in a locked briefcase or electronic copy that is password protected). Write down dates, times and factual information about what happened - what you and she said and did. Include any verbal and physical attacks on you. Also include any incidents when she puts your daughter at risk (eg attacking you when you're driving and DD is in the car). And you haven't mentioned how she behaves towards your DD, but if she is neglectful or angry towards her, you should note that too. This log may help you to realise the scale of the abuse and help you to remember the incidents when your wife is trying to minimise or pretend they didn't happen. It will also be invaluable if you decide to report the abuse, which I recommend doing - for the sake of your daughter, it is vital that there is a record of her mother's behaviour. However, even if you don't want to report anything at the moment, keeping a log will make it an option in future.

dustybrother · 18/04/2016 13:42

AnotherEmma - thanks so much for your message.

Oh I'm definitely going to enjoy the hotel :)

She can be affectionate in her own way and she is loving but again that's where we're quite different. It was different for the past six years or so, but the last 4 or so she just doesn't enjoy kissing.

I'm really struggling with the term abusive to be honest, she isn't an abuser in the same way say a child abuser is say. She also a wonderful mum and she would never do anything to my daughter. I have told her that it is not acceptable that the car incident happened with my daughter in the car.

Over the years we've had so many arguments and there has been lots of swearing at each other etc....which to be honest I just see as the norm now :(

We've also had massive arguments at my parents house as she really struggles with my mum and dad (my mum in particular has lots of issues) but it's always left me in the middle.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 18/04/2016 13:51

dusty

I do not think you really understand or perhaps want to face the truth of what is happening to you in this relationship.

Its hard to read this but I would urge you to read the following:-

You may feel that you have to stay in the relationship because:
• You want to protect your child. You worry that if you leave your spouse will harm your child or prevent you from having access to them. Obtaining custody of children is always challenging for fathers, but even if you are confident that you can do so, you may still feel overwhelmed at the prospect of raising them alone.
• You feel ashamed. Many men feel great shame that they've been beaten down by a woman or failed in their role as protector and provider for the family.
• Your religious beliefs dictate that you stay or your self-worth is so low that you feel this relationship is all you deserve.
• There's a lack of resources. Many men have difficulty being believed by the authorities, or their abuse is minimized because they're male, and can find few resources to help abused men.
• You're in a same sex relationship but haven't come out to family or friends, and are afraid your partner will out you.
• You're in denial. Just as with female domestic violence victims, denying that there is a problem in your relationship will only prolong the abuse. You may believe that you can help your abuser or she may have promised to change. But change can only happen once your abuser takes full responsibility for her behaviour and seeks professional treatment.

Abusive behaviour and violence is a deliberate choice made by the abuser in order to control you. Her actions are all about having power and control over you.

Abusers use a variety of tactics to manipulate and exert their power:-

• Dominance – Abusive individuals need to feel in charge of the relationship. They will make decisions for you and the family, tell you what to do, and expect you to obey without question. Your abuser may treat you like a servant, child, or even as his or her possession.
• Humiliation – An abuser will do everything he or she can to make you feel bad about yourself or defective in some way. After all, if you believe you're worthless and that no one else will want you, you're less likely to leave. Insults, name-calling, shaming, and public put-downs are all weapons of abuse designed to erode your self-esteem and make you feel powerless.
• Isolation – In order to increase your dependence on him or her, an abusive partner will cut you off from the outside world. He or she may keep you from seeing family or friends, or even prevent you from going to work or school. You may have to ask permission to do anything, go anywhere, or see anyone.
• Threats – Abusers commonly use threats to keep their partners from leaving or to scare them into dropping charges. Your abuser may threaten to hurt or kill you, your children, other family members, or even pets. He or she may also threaten to commit suicide, file false charges against you, or report you to child services.
• Intimidation – Your abuser may use a variety of intimidation tactics designed to scare you into submission. Such tactics include making threatening looks or gestures, smashing things in front of you, destroying property, hurting your pets, or putting weapons on display. The clear message is that if you don't obey, there will be violent consequences.
• Denial and blame – Abusers are very good at making excuses for the inexcusable. They will blame their abusive and violent behaviour on a bad childhood, a bad day, and even on the victims of their abuse. Your abusive partner may minimize the abuse or deny that it occurred. He or she will commonly shift the responsibility on to you: Somehow, his or her violent and abusive behaviuor is your fault.

Abusers are able to control their behaviour—they do it all the time
• Abusers pick and choose whom to abuse. They don’t insult, threaten, or assault everyone in their life who gives them grief. Usually, they save their abuse for the people closest to them, the ones they claim to love.
• Abusers carefully choose when and where to abuse. They control themselves until no one else is around to see their abusive behaviour. They may act like everything is fine in public, but lash out instantly as soon as you’re alone.
• Abusers are able to stop their abusive behaviour when it benefits them. Most abusers are not out of control. In fact, they’re able to immediately stop their abusive behaviour when it’s to their advantage to do so (for example, when the police show up or their boss calls).
• Violent abusers usually direct their blows where they won’t show. Rather than acting out in a mindless rage, many physically violent abusers carefully aim their kicks and punches where the bruises and marks won’t show.

She is not a wonderful mother to her DD if she is beating up her dad. What warped message does that send her?.

NameChange30 · 18/04/2016 13:53

I understand that you don't want to see her as an abuser. But she is. I'm very sorry. There are many forms of abuse, and many resources to explain them (the links I and PPs have shared and referred to are just a starting point).

She is not a wonderful mum either. A wonderful mum would NEVER treat her child's father the way she has treated you. (We say it all the time to women in abusive relationships who claim that their abusive partner is a "wonderful father"! It's uncanny how similar your situation is despite the gender reversal.)

Btw, when you refer to "child abuse" you might be thinking of sexual and/or physical abuse, but there are other more subtle forms of abuse, such as emotional and verbal abuse, that are just as damaging. You might be interested to look up the NSPCC definition of child abuse. If your wife treats your daughter anything like the way she treats you, now or in future, it would most probably meet the definition.

Lastly, you say that your mum has issues. That's not hugely surprising tbh. It's quite common for someone who has had a dysfunctional or toxic family of origin to go on to have dysfunctional or toxic relationships as an adult. Unfortunately you may not have had a good role model or example of an emotionally healthy relationship growing up. It can take quite a lot of work to recognise and break away from those unhealthy patterns.

dustybrother · 18/04/2016 14:32

Anotheremma- I've sent you a private message, hope that's okay?

attila - I think I am probably in denial really to be honest, the enormity of everything is too great what with a full time job/my daughter/trying to keep fit and healthy etc

OP posts:
KindDogsTail · 18/04/2016 14:33

Another Emma you wrote
You may feel that you have to stay in the relationship because:
• You want to protect your child. You worry that if you leave your spouse will harm your child or prevent you from having access to them

but the OP already said
She [is] also a wonderful mum and she would never do anything to my daughter.

OP you mentioned this
she really struggles with my mum and dad (my mum in particular has lots of issues) but it's always left me in the middle.

What are your mum's issues?
What happens with your parents and your wife?

dustybrother · 18/04/2016 14:36

Kinddogstail - you're right, she is a brilliant/wonderful mum. I don't want to protect my child as such although she has said if we separated she would go back to Germany with my daughter. I've left that discussion for another time. It's so hard to step outside of the relationship and see it for what it is.

OP posts:
dustybrother · 18/04/2016 14:41

kinddogstail - there isn't the time here to go through my mum's issues as they are various and complex. My brother's wife (who is a pyschotherapist) also thinks that my Dad may be verging on the autistic scale. His Mum and Dad were not very nice people. So like in a lot of cases these issues are passed down the generations.

OP posts:
KindDogsTail · 18/04/2016 14:43

Maybe she could get help for anger/being an abuser this is available) and you could both get separate counselling, then decide.

OP you wrote We've also had massive arguments at my parents house as she really struggles with my mum and dad (my mum in particular has lots of issues) but it's always left me in the middle.

What are your mum's issues? What happens with your parents and your wife? Why does your wife struggle with them?

NameChange30 · 18/04/2016 14:44

KindDogsTail I didn't write that, Attila did.
If you read my last post, you'll see that I said she's not a wonderful mother. It's often something that victims of abuse tell themselves (and us) to defend their abuser and convince themselves and us that the abuser isn't so bad. Actually she has already put her daughter at risk at least once, by attacking the OP when he was driving and she was in the car.

OP thanks for the PM, I have replied.

MiscellaneousAssortment · 18/04/2016 14:48

I found it hard to read when I wrote about my marriage on here, as posters were very clear that it was an abusive relationship with an abusive man. It took a while for me to start agreeing, and it felt like a huge step for me to stop seeing it as a dysfunction relationship with blame on both sides, and start seeing it as an abusive relationship with an abuser, and therefore, a victim.

Actually I've just remembered it helped when I stopped labeling myself as a victim, as I felt very active and I thought victims had to be passive wallflowers ... clearly I was very wrong about that! But anyway, survivor fitted better into my understanding. I was doing things to survive.

As for seeing your partner as an abuser, rather than just feisty or having panic attacks etc... It think it might be helpful to look at the abuse wheel thingy...

NameChange30 · 18/04/2016 14:53

I'm very sorry for using the word "victim" and not survivor, I hope I haven't offended the OP or anyone else.

KindDogsTail · 18/04/2016 14:55

Sorry OP our messages crossed.

It sounds as though your family does not help your and your wife's relationship much when you are with them. Do you have much to do with them? Does your wife have good reason to find them difficult?

Anyway, it does sound as though your wife needs to get herself serious anger therapy and general counselling.

As your family sounds difficult, if you got counselling for yourself too ( not just about your wife but also about your family and things that happened to you through them) maybe you could be able to know what to for the best.

MiscellaneousAssortment · 18/04/2016 14:58

Here's the wheel I mentioned, it's been adapted for men, and if you look underneath the wheel you'll see a description of each type. Might be useful to think about whether any apply to you?

www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/power_and_control_wheel.html

KindDogsTail · 18/04/2016 15:09

AnotherEmma, yes I understand now that you were quoting the advice, sorry.

There is still the point though that if the OP and his wife were separated, he has no reason to think his wife would be a bad mother to the daughter. (She would no longer be able to hit him in front of her.) It sounds as though he should not worry if separating would be best for him and he did not get custody if the child.

Though it was accidental, the OP had possibly put both his wife and child in danger when he drove the car through the lights. One of the wife's terrible bouts of abusive anger was because she felt he had.

I agree MIscellaneous. It is probably best for the OP to not think of himself as a 'victim' but as someone who can make choices/act/discuss ultimatums/move on and away from the abuse if he chooses.

MiscellaneousAssortment · 18/04/2016 15:41

AnotherEmma perhaps posts crossed? If not, I didn't mean my post as any kind of comment on previous posts. Halo Not a dig or criticism honestly!

It was a really big break through for me to think about me having active survival tactics, rather than the (wrong) stereotype of a victim. And again, going by (wrong!) cultural stereotypes, I'm thinking if I as a woman couldn't see myself in that victim role, then the OP is likely to be having even more problems due to the idea of men as strong, providers etc.

I have also just remembered that I struggled to see my abusive husband as the abuser that posters talk about a lot on here. When we're describing abusers, their behavior and intent are so bad, that we tend to make all the abuse sound calculated and intentional. I found that hard to reconcile with my husband, who wasn't motivated by wanting to break me and control me, I thought at the time he wasn't anyway. I thought his behavior came from him being very very damaged, and acting out from his being so damaged. It's hard to explain, I hope it's understandable! Basically, it was hard for me to believe he was this highly skilled and calculated abuser, as I thought he was being so nasty to me out of his damaged 'messed up -ness', and didn't know the effects of what he did. But, you can still be an abuser even if you're unaware of the detailed ways of abusing someone. I guess power and control can be instinctive.

I'm sure there's a wealth of research and literature on it, but I came to this originally from a personal perspective.

It's so hard when you're coming from a place of hurt, denial, love and complete confusion about what is happening. Nothing seemed easy or clear to see... Though it's now very clear and simple to see what was going on. Now I'm out of the situation. And away from my abusive screwed up partner.

Interestingly, now I can see myself as a victim, it doesn't sound something to be ashamed of now.

NameChange30 · 18/04/2016 16:06

KindDogsTail

"Though it was accidental, the OP had possibly put both his wife and child in danger when he drove the car through the lights. One of the wife's terrible bouts of abusive anger was because she felt he had."
I strongly disagree with these comments. You seem to be blaming the OP for this incident and excusing his wife's actions. He made an accidental driving error. She deliberately ATTACKED him while he was driving the car. Her response MASSIVELY increased the risk of an accident and harm to themselves (and their child). There is no excuse for that.

I also disagree with your argument about whether or not she is (or has potential to be) a bad mother, but the points have already been made I don't want to derail the thread by going over it again.

I hope the OP will listen to Miscellaneous and other PPs who have been through similar experiences, I think they have a huge amount of valuable insight, empathy and advice to offer.

(Miscellaneous, no your post didn't seem like a dig or criticism at all! Glad I haven't offended you Smile)

dustybrother · 18/04/2016 16:20

AnotherEmma - she hit me as she wanted me to stop the car and didn't I think I had stopped the car in time. I don't know if you could say it was deliberate but more just a response to thinking she was going to die.

OP posts:
NameChange30 · 18/04/2016 16:32

Of course it was deliberate. Hitting you wasn't going to help you stop the car, was it?!

dustybrother · 18/04/2016 16:33

Another Emma - what happened is that as I was turning right she started screaming at me to stop the car. I told her that it was safe ie I had checked that lane was free before I turned. I remember feeling confused that she wanted me to stop the car as I had the car under control. I then pulled the car over a matter of seconds later when she then punched and hit me.

OP posts:
NameChange30 · 18/04/2016 16:36

She was angry with you for making her feel unsafe and therefore punched you to express that anger. That is completely unacceptable. When you pulled over you had done what she asked and she was no longer in danger. If she was still feeling panicked and angry she could have got out of the car and even walked away if she wanted to calm down.

Couples have arguments in the car all the time. The vast majority do NOT resort to punching each other.

BoatyMcBoat · 18/04/2016 17:21

dustybrother, I'm so sorry you're in this horrible situation. It is a long road, whichever way it goes. I hope your stay in the hotel brings you some peace and quiet, time to recapture a little of the real you, feeling less worn down and confused and sad.

Please ring 101, ask for the dv unit, and have a chat with them about this. It isn't as drastic as reporting to the police, but there will be a flag by your name should you need help. It will also be evidence in your favour should you need it - which I think you will.

I have to say that I am worried, no matter how wonderful a mother she is, that your dd is not perfectly safe alone with her. A wonderful simply doesn't risk everyone's lives by hitting the driver, no matter the circumstances.